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So this came up in a game recently. I had a canoness with Book joined to a unit that had a superior with book as well.
It was a 20 strong unit that was holding a flank, and it was forced to run when I failed %75 of my 3+ saves and had to take a moral check.

Now since I had the book of St. Lucis I thought it would be at 10 because it says in the codex flat out "unmodified leadership" but the Guard player I was playing vs. said that his psyker battle squad lowered their LD Stat line down to 2... And that my unmodified leadership vale was 2.

This swung the game in his favor, and I lost the game because of it. Losing an entire flank and allowing him to drive up unharmed.

in the intrest of speeding up the game i said whatever and knew i was going to lose.. that way i was able to get home and do something somewaht productive after wasting 2-3 hours.

So the question is... dose the psyker battle squad override the book of St. Lucis? Or do I in fact use the "Unmodified" leadership of the canoness that was in the squad as the witch hunter codex says?

Honestly I could see it going either way. There is no clear answer

But considering that most tournaments are ruling the "Weaken Resolve" doesn't affect Stubborn units (similar to the Book), I'd vote in favor of the sisters. Though I don't know the specific wording on the Book.

And I'm an IG player too as a reference.

If you have reduced the characteristic then use that value for a test - you are using a modified value are you not?

The book says specifically that you test on the bearer's UNMODIFIED leadership.

I'd say a reduction is a modification...

....so, yes, you got hosed.

The psychic's power says Ld is reduced to (meaning it is modified) .... the book says use unmodified. The book wins. If the psychic's power had said that the leadership stat is now X then the stat line would be considered X and the book would use X.

As a SoB player I concur, the BoSL says 'unmodified leadership' which means, it works against pretty much anything except replacement effects.

Note the BoSL also works against Deathleaper and any ability that would in some way shape or form modify the ld value. It does not work with the 'soulless ' type effects that replace the ld. value.

I’m the guard player on the other side of the argument.

The adepticon FAQ which we use in our group says that weaken resolve lowers the leardership characteristic. The reason is doesn’t apply to stubborn is because stubborn ignores leadership (similar to fearless).

BoSL protects against temporary/situational modifiers like losing combat, and formerly being outnumbered and below half.

Therefore a sisters squad hit with a 9 man PBS weaken resolve would be an unmodifiable Ld 2.

Ummm, you might want to get the most recent INAT........

+IG.47D.02 – Q: Does 'Weaken Resolve' affect units with the 'Stubborn' special rule when they are taking a morale test?
A: No it does not, as „Weaken Resolve‟ modifies the unit‟s Ld value (which „Stubborn‟ ignores during Morale tests) [clarification].

Note that I actually agree with you, IMO the PBS WR power acutally reduces the LD value of the affected models and is not a 'modifier' to a Morale test (ie it is a 'replacement' affect). But if you're going to use a source, then it needs to be correct, and they have changed the INAT ruling on this particular issue. Course, since they're calling it a modifier, that means that it definitely affects Ork Mob Rule and any unit using an outside source for a LD/Morale test

meh, it all depends on the definition of "modifier".

I would say a modified leadership value is any leadership value that is not the base statline in the book. To argue otherwise is splitting hairs with RAW, which is not something anyone should ever do.

I mean really, how hard is it? The book says unmodified leadership test, which means you never use a different leadership than the stat line. Argue it as you will, its all semantics at this point.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
The adepticon FAQ which we use in our group says that weaken resolve lowers the leardership characteristic. The reason is doesn’t apply to stubborn is because stubborn ignores leadership (similar to fearless).

That is not what the 'Stubborn' says at all. Also, read the INAT entry...

"No it does not as 'Weaken Resolve' modifies the unit's Ld. value (which Stubborn ignores for moral tests)"

What does a BoSL do? 'Units within 6" of a model bearing the BoSL may use the models UNMODIFIED Ld. for leadership tests'

Note it is better than stubborn because you can choose to use it and it is always the unmodified Ld. value.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:I’m the guard player on the other side of the argument.

The adepticon FAQ which we use in our group says that weaken resolve lowers the leardership characteristic. The reason is doesn’t apply to stubborn is because stubborn ignores leadership (similar to fearless).

BoSL protects against temporary/situational modifiers like losing combat, and formerly being outnumbered and below half.

Therefore a sisters squad hit with a 9 man PBS weaken resolve would be an unmodifiable Ld 2.

That and Witch Hunters was written in 3rd where there was no ld modifier for losing combats other than being under half if I recall. So...yeah, tsk tsk.

I said it doesn't apply to stubborn. But Stubborn and BoSL aren't the same thing.

IG.47D.03 – Q: If a unit is able to use a different Ld value via a special rule (such as with Ork‟s „Mob Rule‟ or Space Marine‟s „Rites of Battle‟), how does „Weaken Resolve‟ function in these situations?
A: „Weaken Resolve‟ continually modifies the unit‟s Ld for the entire player turn, so even if the unit utilizes the Ld characteristic from a different source, this new value is still reduced [clarification].

I still say BoSL protects against modifiers from the rule book. The weaken resolve "modifier" is not really a modifier. It is something different. This is the view endorsed by the adepticon FAQ

BoSL does not make the unit stubborn. It is a special rule, my power lowers the LD stat which according the FAQ overrides the special rules.

Doesn't matter. If it's a modifier (as per the INAT ruling), then it doesn't work against the BoSL. It's really that simple. Is it a modifier or not? I (and apparently you) say not. But INAT says it is. And like you, my club uses the INAT.

The FAQ says that for the stubborn rule. It says army special rules ARE overidden by the WR. That's the key difference in my opinion.

And that is where your argument breaks down. It's modified. Doesn't matter how long, could be one turn or the entire game. It's a modified ld value. Book smacks that and says no, I'm using unmodified. At any time the unit is called upon to take a ld valued test, the book allows them to use it on their unmodified value against most circumstance *the one being soulless, you just can't get past that*

Kurgash wrote:And that is where your argument breaks down. It's modified. Doesn't matter how long, could be one turn or the entire game. It's a modified ld value. Book smacks that and says no, I'm using unmodified. At any time the unit is called upon to take a ld valued test, the book allows them to use it on their unmodified value against most circumstance *the one being soulless, you just can't get past that*

It doesn't break down at all. You have two directly contradictory army special rules. I modify you, I can't be modified. I can't be modified, but I modify you. In that circumstance the FAQ says WR wins. Orks are ld however many models there are. After that WR takes effect. Rite of Battle makes the army the leaders ld, after that WR takes effect. BoSL make the unit an unmodified whatever, after that WR takes effect.

Where are you getting that weaken resolve happens after the book, rites of battle and ork mob? It's not like magic where there is a rule stack, they happen at the same time and in your case with WR, we use the apple stratagem.

I have....whatever number of apples based on the canoness' ld value. I hold my shiny book and it tells me emperor things.

Your sanctioned psykers come by and say I can only hold up to 2 apples. But my book says that I always have my original number of apples. That would be modifying how many apples I can have and the book says I can hold my unmodified amount.

There we have it. Apples to apples, Book > WR

When a unit with a BoSL goes tot ake a ld test of any kind, they test on their ld in their statline, if its ANY other number than whats there its been "modified" which cannot happen.

IG.47D.03 – Q: If a unit is able to use a different Ld value via a special rule (such as with Ork‟s „Mob Rule‟ or Space Marine‟s „Rites of Battle‟), how does „Weaken Resolve‟ function in these situations?
A: „Weaken Resolve‟ continually modifies the unit‟s Ld for the entire player turn, so even if the unit utilizes the Ld characteristic from a different source, this new value is still reduced [clarification].

And to continue your apples examples,

Orks say I get 12 apples, sorry FAQ says you get 3 apples.
Marines say I get 10 apples, sorry FAQ says you get 2 apples.
BoSL says I get 10 apples, sorry FAQ says you get 2 apples.

I’m going to a tournament this weekend with at least 3 people who wrote the FAQ. I will ask them and I’ll stick with whatever they say. But so far a lot of people are arguing opinion, not what’s written in the rules and not what’s written in the FAQs.

Those examples changes your leadership. The Book, says you can not change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:IG.47D.03 – Q: If a unit is able to use a different Ld value via a special rule (such as with Ork‟s „Mob Rule‟ or Space Marine‟s „Rites of Battle‟), how does „Weaken Resolve‟ function in these situations?
A: „Weaken Resolve‟ continually modifies the unit‟s Ld for the entire player turn, so even if the unit utilizes the Ld characteristic from a different source, this new value is still reduced [clarification].

The Sisters are not using a Different LD, they are using their own. WR then modifies their LD, which the BoSL says you can not.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:IG.47D.03 – Q: If a unit is able to use a different Ld value via a special rule (such as with Ork‟s „Mob Rule‟ or Space Marine‟s „Rites of Battle‟), how does „Weaken Resolve‟ function in these situations?
A: „Weaken Resolve‟ continually modifies the unit‟s Ld for the entire player turn, so even if the unit utilizes the Ld characteristic from a different source, this new value is still reduced [clarification].

And to continue your apples examples,

Orks say I get 12 apples, sorry FAQ says you get 3 apples.
Marines say I get 10 apples, sorry FAQ says you get 2 apples.
BoSL says I get 10 apples, sorry FAQ says you get 2 apples.

I’m going to a tournament this weekend with at least 3 people who wrote the FAQ. I will ask them and I’ll stick with whatever they say. But so far everyone here is arguing opinion, not what’s written in the rules and not what’s written in the FAQs.

But Canoness Applestein doesn't care about Marines and Orks, those buggers eat cantaloupes. Really I need to see the exact wording of the book to make a finite point to counter your infallible FAQ I win all argument.

The unit does not always test on its statline with a BoSL, for replacement effects (like Pariahs) it tests on that leadership value since it 'replaces' it.

You are correct, the Ld. value of the unit is mofied by the PBS. So a ld 10-8 is at 2. This is great for a Callidus Assassin or similar non leadership test reasons. What this is not great for is breaking units.

PBS - Aha! your ld is 2
SoB - Ohhh phooey. Wait a ld test, what is my UnMODIFIED ls? Wait it is 9 - Yay, I get to test on 9.

The leadership IS 2, but you can test on its unmodified value (just like Stubborn).

The reference you are citing is not relevent to the SoB unless the BoSL dies, so if the squad was hit by WR and got to test form shooting on the unmodified value and then you killed the nearby book in assault, the squad would then test on the modified ld.

Edit: Arctic you are completely misreading the point of that FAQ question. It is applied to thing like Rites of Battle, but if Rites said 'units may test on the unmodified Ld. characterisic' then it would not. The FAQ SPECIFICALLY states Stubborn units can test on the unmodified Ld., this is essentially the exact same bonus as the book.

For Reference:

Book of St. Lucius
Any friendly unit with a model within 6" may use the bearer's unmodified Leadership value for any Morale checks or Pinning tests it is required to take.

jbunny wrote:
The Sisters are not using a Different LD, they are using their own. WR then modifies their LD, which the BoSL says you can not.

That's a good point. I still think it is the best representation of the situation (because they are not stubborn which is a USR, this is codex rule v codex rule), but I will ask the guys in the know this weekend.

My sisters friend also plays inducted guard. So say I weaken resolved the guard. Would you they are LD2 like this:

LD 8 goes up to 10 because of a BoSL near by, then goes down to 2 because of WR.

No, because they use the UNMODIFIED leadership of the Books wielder. 10.

Seriously, PBS is not a replacement (it modifies your stat down by the number of psykers, it fits not only the rulebook definition of a modifier but also the english one as well) and so is entirely ignored by the Book.

He just wants to think what he wants and ignore the facts in front of him. We've presented our cases, held up the truths and that is all we could do.

Based upon what has been presented here I think that WR does not affect BoSL. WR is definitely a modifier that only takes place temporarily.

G

WR doesn’t affect BOSL in the same way that holy icons don’t affect it... I’m not trying to claim I have an unmodified LD of 11 because I have 1 or more holy icon nearby.

Which is why I very rarely use them ... good for inducted Guard sitting back on their own though.


However using this WR logic I can claim that... I am LD 10; I have 1 holy icon nearby. I am now LD 11... With BOSL I now test on LD 11.

And that is just silly.



I think I have a plan to get me to the tourney this weekend that is crazy enough that it might work… I need to get a game in vs. someone who is not 1 of the 2 local 40k players that i can actualy meet up with. both of which play IG, would be nice to play an army that dose not have a “MY TANK IS FIGHT” theme to it

As a guard player I wouldn't have reduced the your leadership,

It may not be stubborn but its as good as.

SpankHammer III wrote:It may not be stubborn but its as good as.

Psst - its better!

Envy - no, you could not, as you have no permission to go above "10".