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This is what I currently own. (For the Green Tide.)

48x Ork Boyz w/ 2x Nob (PK, BP, eavy Armour)

1 Ork Warboss (PK, 'eavy Armour)


This is what I bought yesterday for my birthday.

3x Ork Boyz Box (30 Boyz - 3 Nob)

1 Ork Big Mek

This is going the right route right?

Yes.

Does the big mek have a custom force field? Those are pretty handy when you're walking, I should think.

You appear to be going about it the right way, though!

kronk wrote:Does the big mek have a custom force field? Those are pretty handy when you're walking, I should think.

You appear to be going about it the right way, though!

Yeah, we discussed that at length in another thread.

Big Meks must have KFFs in footslogging Green Tide armies.

KFF works wonders with them.

This is a good start. You need about twice that many boyz for a green tide.

Build the ones you just bought as shoota boyz - you black reach guys will be the sluggas.

Redbeard wrote:This is a good start. You need about twice that many boyz for a green tide.

Build the ones you just bought as shoota boyz - you black reach guys will be the sluggas.

Why shootas?

I mean isn't this all about running and hitting people.

Why would I shoot with a poor BS, and a MEQ heavy meta which will just save it anyways?

I don't mean to sound rude, so I apologize ahead if I come across that way.

But why Shootas?

Shootas, I think, aren't all that useful in a footslogging army. Many players swear by them, but I just can't see it working in a footslogging army that's always running and therefor never shooting. At MOST, one squad to sit on a home objective.

Melissia wrote:Shootas, I think, aren't all that useful in a footslogging army. Many players swear by them, but I just can't see it working in a footslogging army that's always running and therefor never shooting. At MOST, one squad to sit on a home objective.

I would think so too.

My 500 point list is all melee practically.

So not sure how my 1000+ would turn out.

However, (and this is important to remember)..

Shootas are Assault 2.. so (in theory) a squad of 30 can pump out a crud-load of dice the turn they are about to hit a squad.. whittle even terminators down a little..

porkuslime wrote:However, (and this is important to remember)..

Shootas are Assault 2.. so (in theory) a squad of 30 can pump out a crud-load of dice the turn they are about to hit a squad.. whittle even terminators down a little..

True, or the terminators could say "Who threw that piece of paper at me?"

SaintHazard wrote:

kronk wrote:Does the big mek have a custom force field? Those are pretty handy when you're walking, I should think.

You appear to be going about it the right way, though!

Yeah, we discussed that at length in another thread.

Big Meks must have KFFs in footslogging Green Tide armies.

Sorry. Missed the other thread!

Anyhow, Shootas don't suck. I think you're better off with sluggas (WS vs BS). However, if you're going to run 3 or 4 full squads of boys, having a squad of shootas with a few big shootas is fine, I think. They can (I can't believe I'm saying this about orks) CAMP on an objective and shoot stuff!

Holy crap! Tactics aren't just little mints, boys!

In any army this small, you do NOT want shootas.

Why sacrifice +1 attack at WS4 for +1 shot at BS2? It makes no sense.

And in 500 point battles, your Lootas will be plenty able to camp objectives.

Yes. A squad of 30 can, if it's been ignored the entire time, pump out 60 shots. Against MEQ:

~20 will hit, ~10 will wound, ~3.5 will be unsaved.

However. A squad of 30 slugga boyz puts out 30 shots, ~10 hitting, ~5 wounding, ~1.7 unsaved. So you're basically getting a couple extra wounds out of shooting in exchange for potentially many more wounds out of assault.


So let's do an unbiased mathhammer comparison of 30 slugga boyz in the assault against ten Marines versus the same amount of shoota. Both of these assume that all of them are able to get their attacks in, but that's not really entirely likely.

Slugga boyz: 8 Marine attacks hit first, averaging 4 hits, 2 wounds, saves unlikely. 2 dead Orks, 28 left. 112 attacks, 56 hits, 28 wounds, 9.52 dead Marines. One kill point earned.

Shoota boyz: 7 Marine attacks hit first, averaging 3.5 hits, 1.75 wounds, saves unlikely. So still ~2 dead orks. 84 attacks, 42 hits, 21 wounds, 7.14 wounds. One kill point earned.



In the end, which one is better? The Slugga Boyz squad just barely eked out a win there, but that's pure mathhammer and therefor isn't what you should base your judgement on. Both of them killed their target squad in a single charge assuming their enemies did not get to shoot at them (highly unlikely situation). I think, however, the extra attacks in close combat are better, especially against lower WS targets (for example, Guard blobs, Eldar, Battle Sisters, and so on) than the extra BS2 shots which don't ignore the armor of most targets anyway and you can take cover saves against them to boot. It's really just a matter of preference.

The reason shoota boyz are superior is because they're flexible, and they can start affecting the game 1-2 turns earlier than slugga boyz.

There are many other threads that explain this. If you're footslogging, there will be things that you cannot beat in assault. Having at least one shoota unit gives you that capability.

Melissia, run your math against something harder than tac marines. Try Grey Hunters, with their 3 attacks each when you charge them, before you swing...

I want to chop down everything! Lumberjack Orks!

Redbeard wrote:Melissia, run your math against something harder than tac marines. Try Grey Hunters, with their 3 attacks each when you charge them, before you swing...

If you want me to do that, why don't I also apply a turn of rapid fire to the squad as well? I'm sure that, either way, 180 points of Orks (30 boyz, no upgrades) against 180 points of Grey Hunters (10 squad members, 2x flamers, plasma pistol, power weapon) is going to be disastrous regardless of which you choose if the Grey Hunters get their turn of shooting-- or if they get the assault instead. Slugga nor Shoota Boyz will be that effective against them point per point. Flamers are more difficult to calculate as it's based off of the placement of the template, so I'm going to assume four hits per flamer (remember-- there are no partials, if it touches, it hits, so this is being generous to the Orks).

Let's see. Bolters: 18 shots, 12 hits, 6 wounds, only cover saves. Flamers: 8 hits, 4 wounds, no saves whatsoever. So 10 boyz dead. This doesn't exactly sound good for the Ork Boyz no matter their setup.

Or if the Grey Hunters decide to get the charge: Bolt Pistols: 7 shots, 4.7 hits, 2.35 wounds, only cover saves. Flamers: 8 hits, 4 wounds, no saves whatsoever. Plasma pistol: 2/3rd chance to hit, 5/6th chance to wound, only cover saves. And then neither Ork mob would get their +1s bonus for furious charge so both of them are screwed.

Not entirely true.

The slugga boyz have to run at the grey hunters. They have no other real option. The Grey hunters can sit and shoot, and maneuver for a turn of rapid-fire + flamer, and take the charge.

Versus the shootas, however, the shoota boyz have the edge, especially if they can get cover. They have the ability to shoot more first, with a move&shoot 18" range, and can drop 1/3rd of the wolves. The wolves have to move up at that point, and can rapid-fire, but they're already down men, and won't get their flamers anywhere near enough to do a lot of damage. Then the shootas, who got a cover save, can move up again, shoot, and then charge. By the time they charge, they can realistically expect the wolves to be down to five, or fewer, men.

Because you don't have to close to assault range, you have the edge in the engagement. You have versatility. Shoota boyz will still beat an awful lot of things if they assault, but they have that other option, they can hug cover and pump out shots. To be effective, sluggas need to just charge forward.

That's not a hard problem for the space puppies to solve.

Simply drop the special weapons and give the grey hunters a rhino instead. Without rokkit launchas, the boyz don't stand a chance of popping that rhino outside of melee and even then, without a nob they'll only be able to glance, and even with rokkit launchas there's always smoke launchers to deal with that.

You're completely missing the point.

It's not about space wolves and what they can do in this situation, it's about the flexibility of shoota boyz over slugga boyz.

A good green tide has some of both, and probably leans more heavily towards shootas. The OP already has 50ish slugga boyz. I suggested that he make the next 30 shoota boyz to add versatility to his army.

Well can I ask you something?

Is it a bad idea to do all sluggas as it being compare to an okay idea with a few shootas?

I see your point. But it is not successfully argued because it ignores the metagame.

A Shoota Boy mob may be SLIGHTLY more flexible, but it does so through being less effective in melee. And since many MEQ armies have means of getting into melee against shooty armies (after all, they have to deal with Guard, a far stronger army than Orks with far better shooting), the sole advantage of shoota boyz has can be easily nullified.

The_Savior: It's not a horrible idea, although you will have some harder matchups.

Melissia:
I disagree with your analysis of the metagame. Orks have plenty of tools to handle any but the hardest transports. If anything, having shoota boyz means that the marines may have to adjust, from being the ones sitting back, waiting for you to come to them, to having to go towards you - and that's when your slugga squads come into play. Shoota boyz are not guard - they're still quite respectable in combat.

My Meta: Imperial Guard(2-3), Space Marines(2-4), Space Wolves(1), Blood Angels(1), Chaos Space Marines (3), Orks (me and another guy) and Tryanids (1)

Make the call...

I still vote pure crumpin' for your Boyz, it may cripple you in one or two situations where you wish you had the extra shot, but I promise you nine times out of ten you'll obliterate the enemy.

Let me give you an example.

Last night I was playing my Necrons against a friend borrowing my Orks, who are pure choppy. The only reason he was able to gain any headway whatsoever was because when he did manage to get into close combat, he absolutely obliterated my Lord, my Warriors, and my Scarabs with something like 90 attacks on the charge (since several couldn't assault far enough to attack that turn. That's because of the sluggas.

90 attacks, dude.

90. And that's only 3/4 of their full potential.

Lumberjacks. Lumberjacks everywhere.

I will go with melee for me, if I don't like it break the arms off and shootas.

Okay, against the guard players, the shoota boyz will be just as able to win combats as the slugga boyz, but will have a larger range to hit any non-meched squads as they move.

Standard Space Marines - you should be able to out assault them with either - again, shootas will mean that you can start hurting them earlier.

Space Wolves, Chaos Marines and Blood Angels - sluggas will do better in combat, but these two armies are better, overall, at combat than slugga boyz, so having shootas means you may not have to engage them. Depends on their builds, really.

Orks - Ork-on-Ork often comes down to who gets the charge and who doesn't. If you're both on foot, and you've got shootas, you'll win way more. If he's mounted and you're on foot, you'll need to learn to bait him, cause he'll get more charges. 12 sluggas can assault 30 shootas out of a trukk and win the first round of combat (although, in subsequent rounds, they're likely to be ground down by numbers).

Nids - I have to admit, I don't have much experience with the new nid codex. None of my regular group play it, and it's not really highly competitive so I've not encountered it in a tournament yet either. Since nids are likely to hit first in assault whether you, or they, charge, shooting them and taking the charge is probably a better bet.

I do what I call a forced fight.

This is with Stormboyz however, I get them to a certain spot...leave them there.

Then I'll get my Boyz to another spot get as close as possible, wait for next turn attack with Stormboyz.

Then come in with the Boyz after they're weakened. Rinse repeat, and if need be declare the Waaagh!

You just effectively described something between the classic "spearhead" strategy and the classic "springboard" strategy, but with Orks.

Redbeard wrote:Orks have plenty of tools to handle any but the hardest transports. If anything, having shoota boyz means that the marines may have to adjust, from being the ones sitting back, waiting for you to come to them, to having to go towards you - and that's when your slugga squads come into play. Shoota boyz are not guard - they're still quite respectable in combat.

What respectable brass nipple marines player would want to stay OUT of combat? Same question for Space Puppy players, too, unless they're longfang based in which case they can probably outshoot AND out-assault if they play their cards right.