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I'd just like somone to clarify this for me. Leman Russ Battlecannon, with Lascannon and Heavy Bolter Side Sponsoons. I know that, stationary, the Lumbering Behemoth rule allows you to fire all weapons even if you fire an ordnance weapon. However, if it moves six inches forward (Combat Speed) is it still allowed to fire all weapons? Or is it only one weapon and all defensive weapons (thus restricting the fire of the lascannon and heavy bolters)?

Only one weapon + defensive.

Please explain, I tried to at my FLGS, but I got shouted down by every single other IG player.

Normally you can fire one weapon plus all defensive weapons when moving at combat speed.

Lumbering Behemoth let Russes fire one weapon plus all defensive weapons plus the turret weapon when moving at combat speed.

So a LRBT with LC and HB sponsons can choose to fire either one HB or the LC in addition to the Battle Cannon when moving at combat speed.

Tell them to read the IG codex, page 48, Lumbering Behemoth. It clearly says the Russ can fire its main cannon in addition to whatever weapons it is normally allowed to fire. Are you normally allowed to fire a Lascannon and a Heavy Bolter when moving at Combat Speed?

Emperors Faithful wrote:Please explain, I tried to at my FLGS, but I got shouted down by every single other IG player.

It's worth noting that the Leman Russ doesn't have any defensive weapons, unless you take the heavy stubber (which IMHO isn't worth it). Is it possible there was some misunderstanding as to whether or not heavy bolters are defensive (they aren't --BRB p. 58)?

Because that's the only reason I can think of that anyone who's read the IG codex would have a problem with your tank.

MekanobSamael wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Please explain, I tried to at my FLGS, but I got shouted down by every single other IG player.

It's worth noting that the Leman Russ doesn't have any defensive weapons, unless you take the heavy stubber (which IMHO isn't worth it). Is it possible there was some misunderstanding as to whether or not heavy bolters are defensive (they aren't --BRB p. 58)?

Because that's the only reason I can think of that anyone who's read the IG codex would have a problem with your tank.

This is exactly what I said, Heavy Bolters/Flamers/Lascannons aren't defensive weapons and therefore can't be fired all at once when moving at Combat Speed in addition to the Ordnance Weapon. I argued that Lumbering Behemoth was designed to cancel out the restriction on Ordnance Weapons firing, and was not supposed to allow a mobile vehichle firing all sponsoons. It didn't stop them from literally yelling in my face that I was wrong so I gave up, one of them then claimed that they had phoned a GW staff member saying that he was correct. Is there any FAQ or official GW writing that can prove otherwise?

The codex is all the evidence you need.

So...any help in how to deal with people(s) who shout in your face then?

Well, if they can't understand simple English (I honestly don't understand how the Lumbering Behemoth rule can be misunderstood) and they refuse to reason then the only way to deal with them is not to play against them.

Wait, were you arguing that the Russ can fire its turret plus one other main weapon while moving at combat speed, or just the turret weapon?

Emperors Faithful wrote:So...any help in how to deal with people(s) who shout in your face then?

Open the codex.
Place it on the table where all players can see the text.
Read aloud the text of the rule, slowly and clearly.
Look up.
"We clear?"

Emperors Faithful wrote:So...any help in how to deal with people(s) who shout in your face then?

Find better friends.

MekanobSamael wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:So...any help in how to deal with people(s) who shout in your face then?

Open the codex.
Place it on the table where all players can see the text.
Read aloud the text of the rule, slowly and clearly.
Look up.
"We clear?"

That is exactly what I did. (Apart from "We clear?")
They then proceeded to read the codex loudly and clearly, and then laughed and called me a noob. *shrug*
BTW, the guy who said he called GW later admitted to me that he hadn't actually called anyone and just held the phone to his ear. "Can you hear me now?"

The lumbering behemoth rule can be misunderstood because of the way it is worded. However, it says that the turret can be fired in addition to any weapons that can normally be fired. When you get to the normally fired part pull open the BRB to pg 58 and show them what normally fired means. I had to do this with my gaming group because they were under the same impression that your pals were under.

So in other words:

LR stands still:
-Fires BC, both HB sponsons, and LC

LR moves at Combat Speed (6"):
-BC and LC
OR
-BC and one HB sponson

LR moves at Cruising speed (6"+ D6" due to Lumbering Behemoth):
-Can fire nothing at all.

At least, that's the way I've understood and played it.

Yep, Ruckdog has it exactly right (altho I'd use the terms one hull weapon or one sponson weapon instead of specific weapons). As much as I'd like to be able to move over 6" and fire my Leman Russ main gun, it's not allowed.

If your going to try to convience the group, heres a more proactive approach that people understand.

Take aside the person with the most dominate personality in the group. Make sure that you get him alone so that others do not chime in.

Ask him to show you his logic and reasoning behind his stance. Listen, evlauate then respond with the rules and ask him how his logic superceeds the rules. If you can convience this guy, he can help you convience the veteran players.

If you try to get the group as a whole, no one is actually listening.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, make sure you have the rules marked and open while talking about them so you can easily reference them. Both for the leman russ rules and the vehicle firing rules.

Its hard to argue when someone is prepared and correct.

don_mondo wrote:Yep, Ruckdog has it exactly right (altho I'd use the terms one hull weapon or one sponson weapon instead of specific weapons). As much as I'd like to be able to move over 6" and fire my Leman Russ main gun, it's not allowed.

Ah, sorry, I was trying to keep it within the example tank given above rather than make a general explanation.

Ruckdog's idea isn't how I see it though, maybe I'm giving GW too much credit but if you look at it like those stupid logic problems from school then you can fire the turret weapon at almost anytime.

What I get hung up on specifically is the "...in addition to whatever weapons can normally be fired..." Just because you can't fire other weapons doesn't mean you can't fire the battle cannon. Also the Codex trumps the BRB. I'll except a good counter argument as long as it isn't like the OP's LGS, but to me "able to fire no weapons" + "BattleCannon" = "BattleCannon".

EDIT: (Clarify) I guess if it said something like "The LR can fire it's turret weapon along with any other weapon it can normally fire" I would see it Ruckdog's way but otherwise I'm in a grey area about it right now.

I would say that's a false bit of logic, but it doesn't matter - Lumbering Behemoth explicitly states that that you can only fire the main gun alongside other weapons when you remain stationary or move at combat speed.

Ah, nice catch. I do not have my codex on hand so I"ll believe you .

Also you may not fire ANY weapons - lumbering behemoth does not let you fire more when you cannot fire any. May not fire any is NOT the same as being allowed to fire 0 weapons.

Upon looking at the Codex, I'd like to point out that the Lumbering Behemoth rule says: "A Leman Russ that moved at COMBAT SPEED or REMAINED STATIONARY. . . " (emphasis mine). That means the LB rule only applies when you move 0" or 6" (for those that are a little slow). I think this is pretty much the point that MasterSlowPoke was after.

If you move 0", then the rule only counters the fact that if you fire ordinance, you can't fire anything else.

If you move 6", it overrides the ordinance idea (as above), plus the fact that you could only fire one weapon with Strength 5+.

If you don't overlook the "combat speed or remained stationary" part, then the whole "0+1" argument doesn't even matter.

Since it's pretty clear with respect to movement, the only area that might be under contention is whether it can fire when Shaken or Stunned. I would agree with Nos at this point, though. Cannot fire is not equal to being able to fire "0". For contrast, the Power of the Machine Spirit rule specifically mentions Shaken and Stunned (at least in the DH FAQ that I'm reading. I don't have any applicable Codices on me).

MekanobSamael wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:So...any help in how to deal with people(s) who shout in your face then?

Open the codex.
Place it on the table where all players can see the text.
Read aloud the text of the rule, slowly and clearly.
Look up.
"We clear?"

I like this answer, but I'd swap "read aloud ... " with "bash over head with large blunt object"

Kick em in the nuts..

Hard to yell in soemone's face when you're foetal on the floor

Then beat liberally with the rulebook, sprinkle with lemon juice and breadcrumbs and bake for 40 mins at gas Mark 5

Nutritious, delicious and emotionally satisfying, plus they'll be unlikely to call you noob again because you might get peckish again...


Seriously, find a better bunch to play with. Nothing like a room full of cheating IG players to sour a good game

My joy from this thread is when i read that nearly everyone is playing ig. it must be truly hard as nails to do anything when everyone has a different opinion on the matter.

To OP.

As has been said earlier, you need to talk to one, maybe two, of the people in question.
The group-thing prohibits peaceful discourse.


I suggest asking if you can pose them four questions, in a calm, nice and humble way;



A. What constitutes as a Defensive Weapon?

Any weapon with str. 4 or lower.

B. When does "Lumbering Behemoth" apply?

When the Leman Russ in question moves at at Combat Speed or remains Stationary

C. How many weapons can a Tank normally fire? (thanks to Blacksails for the correction)

Stationary: One Ordnance, or all non-Ordnance weapons
Combat Speed: One Ordnance, or one Main + all Defensive (of which the Leman Russ has none, unless a Storm Bolter/Heavy Stubber is bought)
Cruising Speed: None.

D. What exceptions to the normal rules does "Lumbering Behemoth" present?

Allows the firing of the TURRET WEAPON in addition to any other weapons it is allowed to fire. Even if the turret weapon is an Ordnance weapon.



The really important parts of this, is that you ask the questions in the order above and that you ask them to point to the rule in the rulebook/codex when they answer.
If you are really smart and interested in resolving this issue, you have a Codex Imperial Guard and a rulebook handy, with the relevant sections bookmarked, so looking up is really easy.

In Codex Imperial Guard we are talking about page 48, and in the rule book we are talking about page 58

Having answered these question the "Lumbering Behemoth" rule and its effects should be clear to all.
Reference back to the answers might be necessary, but please do so a humble way. Make the other person think that you don't understand his stance because you are dumb, not because you think he is wrong and a moron.



Situation A.

"So now I move my Leman Russ 6" forward and fires my Lascannon and the two Heavy Bolters"
"I am sorry, but aren't those all Main Weapons?"

"Yes, but Lumbering Behemoth allows me to fire all my weapons"
"I do apologize, but I seem to have misunderstood the Lumbering Behemoth rule. Doesn't the exceptions provided by Lumbering Behemoth only affect the turret weapon?"


Situation B.

"So now I move my Leman Russ 12" forward and fires the Battle Cannon"
"I am sorry, but I thought non-fast vehicles weren't allowed to fire any weapons when moving faster than 6"

"Well, Lumbering Behemoth allows me to do so"
"I do apologize, but doesn't Lumbering Behemoth only apply when moving Combat Speed or remaining Stationary? I seem to have understood it that way."

Steelmage09, your answers for part C. are wrong. Stationary should read "One ordnance, AND all non-ordnance weapons," and for combat speed, "One ordnance (turret weapon), AND, one main + defensive."

Also,, your examples are either wrong and/or confusing. You cannot move 6" and elect to fire a lascannon AND two heavy bolter sponsons. The lascannon is not a turret weapon. If you move 6" and elect not to shoot the turret weapon (or it was destroyed), then normal vehicle rules apply.

Also, you cannot choose to move 12" with a russ; you have to roll a D6 to see how far you move after the initial 6" and you cannot fire any weaponry if you do so.

*Further editing* Honestly, instead of trying to make the rule more complicated then it is, think of it this way. Treat the russ as a regular vehicles. Apply all regular rules. Then simply shoot the turret weapon IN ADDITION to the normal rules. Then add the special rule about rolling to see how far you can move past combat speed.

Done.

Honestly, you should really read my post instead of just skimming it and guessing at its content.

Blacksails wrote:Steelmage09, your answers for part C. are wrong. Stationary should read "One ordnance, AND all non-ordnance weapons," and for combat speed, "One ordnance (turret weapon), AND, one main + defensive."

Read the question that I pose in C.

I ask how a Leman Russ NORMALLY fires. You are right in that way that perhaps I should have asked; "How does a Tank normally fire". I will amend my original post.
It is pedagogically important to establish the norm before trying to teach the exceptions.

Also,, your examples are either wrong and/or confusing. You cannot move 6" and elect to fire a lascannon AND two heavy bolter sponsons. The lascannon is not a turret weapon. If you move 6" and elect not to shoot the turret weapon (or it was destroyed), then normal vehicle rules apply.

Also, you cannot choose to move 12" with a russ; you have to roll a D6 to see how far you move after the initial 6" and you cannot fire any weaponry if you do so.

I really don't know what to say here. You have again completely missed the point.
Perhaps you should reread my post.

The conversations are shown as examples on how you can address the issues that arise when the Lumbering Behemoth is not understood, as is the case with the OP.
Of course, the examples are wrong...that is why the OP posted in the first place.

I merely picked the two examples I most often run into when Lumbering Behemoth is misunderstood.

*Further editing* Honestly, instead of trying to make the rule more complicated then it is, think of it this way. Treat the russ as a regular vehicles. Apply all regular rules. Then simply shoot the turret weapon IN ADDITION to the normal rules. Then add the special rule about rolling to see how far you can move past combat speed.

Yes, I know how Lumbering Behemoth works.

I am not attempting to make the rule more complicated....I am not even trying to explain the rule to the OP.
I am attempting to suggest an alternate way that the OP can present the issue to his opponents, hopefully making them look at Lumbering Behemoth in a different way.