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I'm a big fan of the massive beat stick that is Avatar & Eldrad & fortune combo. However I'm looking to mix it up and I love the phoenix lords, has anyone used them with success? I'm liking Asurmen as an all rounder with the 4+ inv save, but S4 isn't ideal against MEQ. Karandras looks awesome on the charge with 7 x S8 PF attacks, but will he live long enough to deliver them? Any tips on who's good vs MEQ?

I don't have to fight against these guys very much but I seem to remember them having a pretty serious draw back that keeps alot of people from using them. No eternal warrior or no invulnerable. Besides as an eldar player psychic powers are your strong suit. Granted I'm not an eldar player I would tend to think that 2 farseers would be the way to go...
AF

2 Seers or Seer and Eldrad are the way to go
AF is pretty accurate (Asurman aside about the Inv save) but the Pheonix Lords do have eternal warrior.

Actually IIRC, they are the first models to have Eternal Warrior as a rule.

As for Karandras, striking last and being generally a loner with no inv sucks.

Which is why Eldrad is so good. On the normal Farseer build I use Eldrad is about 12 points more which gets me +1T, 3+ invul, all powers, ability to use three, ability to use the same power twice and wound on 2+ with no armour saves. Might be more but I'm not remembering it at the moment.

But yeah two Farseers is usually a good idea, you just have to try to keep them in the right place at the right time to support the right units.

As for Pheonix Lords, if I remember right, Asurmen and Maugan Ra are the best of them. Also Prine Yriel is pretty good as well.

They have several draw backs ...
1) With the exception of Asurmen they have no invulnerable save
2) they all cost around 200pts
3) and some Aspects are not worth taking
4) They can only join a non-aspect unit or the same aspect unit as them selves.
5) Not every one was given grenades ¬_¬

Now for the good. They all have a 2+ armour save, are fearless, they most definitely do have eternal warrior (first codex with it i believe) and fleet of foot. They're also sporting above average stat-line I7 means they go first)

Asurmen:- as mention before he has the only invulnerable save. He has duel D.Catapults and dire sword that re-rolls to hit. I tend to leave him on the shelf. He brings nothing to you're army that you can't get cheaper else where, if not better.

Jain Zar:- Power weapon with +2str and furious charge ... but no invulnerable save. Number of times she's been killed by the power Klaw nob. She can work.

Baharroth:- He's an over price swooping hawk ... moving on

Fuegan:- Feel No Pain and Eternal Warrior, he will soak up a lot of punishment. Power weapon with +1Str 2D6 vs vehicles. However he's a bit limited with only one melta shot.

Karandras:- Stealth is great, +2 attacks is great, having a power fist and chain sword that adds +1str is very good. One of my favorite phoenix lords.

Maugan Ra:- He can reroll to wound when shooting and ignores cover with a 36" range assault cannon. I take him a lot. The Maugetar (assault cannon) is one of the best guns in the game, it can kill every thing from tanks to infantry, this one also pins and best of all it has a +2Str Power weapon strapped to it. He's just pure win; only way he could be better is with an invulnerable save.


Edit yep if you want a Farseer then you want Eldrad first. Only time not use him is when you've got a small game <1500pts

Tri wrote:They have several draw backs ...
1) With the exception of Asurmen they have no invulnerable save
2) they all cost around 200pts
3) and some Aspects are not worth taking
4) They can only join a non-aspect unit or the same aspect unit as them selves.
5) Not every one was given grenades ¬_¬

Now for the good. They all have a 2+ armour save, are fearless, they most definitely do have eternal warrior (first codex with it i believe) and fleet of foot. They're also sporting above average stat-line I7 means they go first)

Asurmen:- as mention before he has the only invulnerable save. He has duel D.Catapults and dire sword that re-rolls to hit. I tend to leave him on the shelf. He brings nothing to you're army that you can't get cheaper else where, if not better.

Jain Zar:- Power weapon with +2str and furious charge ... but no invulnerable save. Number of times she's been killed by the power Klaw nob. She can work.

Baharroth:- He's an over price swooping hawk ... moving on

Fuegan:- Feel No Pain and Eternal Warrior, he will soak up a lot of punishment. Power weapon with +1Str 2D6 vs vehicles. However he's a bit limited with only one melta shot.

Karandras:- Stealth is great, +2 attacks is great, having a power fist and chain sword that adds +1str is very good. One of my favorite phoenix lords.

Maugan Ra:- He can reroll to wound when shooting and ignores cover with a 36" range assault cannon. I take him a lot. The Maugetar (assault cannon) is one of the best guns in the game, it can kill every thing from tanks to infantry, this one also pins and best of all it has a +2Str Power weapon strapped to it. He's just pure win; only way he could be better is with an invulnerable save.


Edit yep if you want a Farseer then you want Eldrad first. Only time not use him is when you've got a small game <1500pts

this man has it down ^

plus youve forgotten than maugan ra is such a sick model- he just looks awsome

I like to run maugan with my harlies, as they are non-aspect plus he can benefit from VOT

While still being subpar Maguan Ra is with out doubt the best PL. Just remember that when you stick him in a squad of harlies the lose both MTC and Ignore Terrain

yeah but you can detach as needed- sorted

Once, I played with my EC army vs. Eldar including Karandras
leading a squad of outflanking Scorpions.
This guy was absolutely hard to take down.

I also faced Maugan Ra several times and she's absolutely mean in cc and shooting.

Outflanking Scorps with no fleet...hard to take down, but not a huge issue right?
Seems wierd for scorpions to do well these days.

Awesome breakdown Tri, thanks.

I just played a game last week with Jain Zar against a BA army w/ Meph and she punked him out in the first round of combat he charged her although it was funy he failed his LD test and was fighting at WS1 that round, and she only lost 1 attack.

The nice thing is, is all the Lords are really nice in CC. they are almost always going to strike first with a 7 Int only thing is with the exception of Maugen Ra & Jain Zar none of their ranged attacks are anything special for how much they cost your not gaining much more than what a regular Exarch could bring to a squad for much less points.

I honestly say build an army with the ones you like and play for fun against some friends and find out your self how they do. I just don't think for serious play they are worth it when you can have two Farseer's who on the whole are more cost effective and bring greater overall benefit to the army.

feediz wrote:
plus you've forgotten than maugan ra is such a sick model- he just looks awesome

Some people say that Magan Ra's real name is Chuck Norris, in fact he's so tough he single handedly save his people from the eye of terror. All I know for sure is that he's managed to kill a Landraider, 5 terminators and Marneus Calgar in two turns. That was a good game.

One thing I've not mention is that for those models with a good ranged weapon they'll be hitting 89% of the time, BS7 gives a 5+ re-roll. Maugan with his reroll to wound manages to hit and wound 86% of the time, vs T4 or less.

These guys are called the Pathetic Lords for a reason.

They are however really fun to paint.

Maugen Ra was the only one I ever used in 4th edition where he could hang in the back shooting with his long ranged assault cannon and serve counter assault and he couldn't get shot cause 4th you couldn't shoot ics if something else was closer.

Sanctjud wrote:Outflanking Scorps with no fleet...hard to take down, but not a huge issue right?
Seems wierd for scorpions to do well these days.

True. It was a 4'x4' table.
Generally, it is eventually hard for Karandras to reach cc.

Karandras does have fleet tho...but striking last without a inv save is pretty much fail anyway.

I have used Maugan Ra extensively in the past, and his shooting can indeed be impressive. However, he is not a CC character at all. Although he goes first a hits on 3s against most things in the game, because he only has 4 attacks and no invuln means he is very, very vulnerable in CC. Statistically MR has a dead even chance to dying from a tac squad with a power fist before he kills the squad.

I would collect the pheonix lords just for the models and for the sake of having them.

I currently have Jain Zar, and play her in a Squad of five banshees in a Falcon. I then have two other 6-woman banshee squads also riding in falcons. It's pretty effective, though expensive, provided as long as the falcons survive. I generally use this for 2000+ games and APOC

tedurur wrote:Karandras does have fleet tho...but striking last without a inv save is pretty much fail anyway.

Can't use it if he's joined with Scorpions...which reinforces the whole: they kinda suck with their own aspect for some odd reason.

Sanctjud wrote:

tedurur wrote:Karandras does have fleet tho...but striking last without a inv save is pretty much fail anyway.

Can't use it if he's joined with Scorpions...which reinforces the whole: they kinda suck with their own aspect for some odd reason.

He's jogging backwards in front of them saying "You guys need to work out more", he also always wears sunglasses indoors. I guess you could make him even more of a jerk by making him charge solo and have the rest of the squad charge up the next round.

Which is still unhealthy for the scorps...which would make him a jerk leaving them behind...but only if he ends movement not within 2" of them.

So... the scorps could inadvertantly prevent him from using fleet if they end within 2" of Karadras trying to leave them behind during the movement phase.

Exactly.

Jain Zar and Maugan Ra (you will call him Mr. Ra) are usually the best choices, Jain Zar is a little more situational I find. I run with Maugan Ra pretty regularly and he just cleans out whole areas.

Jain Zar needs to be supported by Banshees to be effective. 5 banshees with Jain Zar in a Falcon or 9 banshees and Jain Zar in a serpent. Preferably the serpent. That is if you only want one squad of banshees. as I noted before, running 17 banshees with Jain Zar split into groups of 6 each riding in a falcon is expensive but deadly. And you get a Banshee theme

I don't know about the others but I sent karandras with 5 scorpions up against 5 possessed. the scorps got killed pretty quick, taking down 1 possessed and karandras was left on 1 wound. Next turn pounded every one of them and then carried on to shred the rest of the guys army( mostly because he killed their rhino and was assisted by heavy duty long-range firepower went on to capture one objective and fought most things off until at the end he was taken down by a lascannon shot, only for the rest of the chaos to be destroyed by the Avatar... Raargh! Angry rampage!

Possessed are one of the worst units in the Chaos Codex due to their high cost and variable capabilities. However, 5 of them costs much, much less than 5 scorptions and Karandras. The fact that you lost all 5 scorpions and Karandras was reduced to one wound does not speak much of the Phoenix Lord's capability.

I've been using Maugan Ra in my foot eldar army. I attach him to my unit of Wraithguard. He gets to hide in a sea of T6...and intercepts any AP3 shots. When this unit is fortuned and has Eldrad also in tow, it's a giant, hard to kill brick.


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Possessed are one of the worst units in the Chaos Codex due to their high cost and variable capabilities.

I disagree with this. They are one of the most flexible units in the book. The variable capabilities is just gravy and you should never count on it. Their main advantage is their beefy statline and fearless. Put them in a rhino and they are fine.

All good comments above. I would add the following:

All Phoenix Lords can have their cost effectively reduced if you use them in place of an Exarch. For example, Asurmen has both Bladestorm and Defend. If you would have had to buy those for a DA Exarch anyways (and I always do for at least one squad of DA, as my Mechdar need an objective-grabber that can stand up to assaults), those points are already given. The question is whether everything else you get from the PL is worth it.

Also, if you have both a PL and an Exarch, a lousy-moderate CC choice like DAs with powerweapon/shimmershield suddenly becomes pretty decent. 2 PWs, Defend, and a 5++ for the squad/4++ for Assman. Scorps suddenly have 2x powerfists if you use Karandras's fist, or a bunch more high-init attacks plus something for the enemy to focus on that might guarantee your powerfist guy lives to hit later. This lets them take out Marines more reliably, or really really big Ork squads.

Now about each PL:

Karandras doesn't have to use his claw, and without it he's still a BMF with tons of strength 5 attacks.

Maugan Ra is only worth his points if your opponent fields lots of light vehicles (Speed Freeks, DE, etc.) or if he can fill both a shooting and countercharge role. He's a nice addition to a foot firebase, as weith MR and a couple WLs around your shooters have a decent countercharge. Oh, and never put Mr. Ra in with a unit of Dark Reapers- that would be a total mismatch.

Baharroth is decent against IG, as he can kill command squads, hit/run a few vehicles, etc. before he gets killed.

Fuegan is overkill against vehicles unless your playing APoc and are worried about superheavies. I'd put him on the field in a heartbeat if I saw any titan at all on my opponent's shelf. Otherwise, not worth it.

Jain Zar is usually overkill as well. Banshees already handle their chosen opponents well. She (and her Furious Charge addition) might be helpful against BA or TWolf cav, but that's about it.


Bottom line, PLs are too expensive to field for general-purpose lists, but they can be helpful if you have a very specific use in mind (like killing Ork trukks, taking out IG command squads, etc.)

Man, I hope they catch a bunch of buffs in the next edition of the Eldar 'dex. Even just a 4++ for each of them (and Asurmen's becoming 3++) would make them more worth their points.


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CaptKaruthors wrote:I've been using Maugan Ra in my foot eldar army. I attach him to my unit of Wraithguard. He gets to hide in a sea of T6...and intercepts any AP3 shots. When this unit is fortuned and has Eldrad also in tow, it's a giant, hard to kill brick.

Whoah. Never thought of that. Super-expensive, but it does cover some of the WG's weaknesses. That sounds like a fun build for a friendly game. Thanks for the idea!

I've been using Maugan Ra in my foot eldar army. I attach him to my unit of Wraithguard. He gets to hide in a sea of T6...and intercepts any AP3 shots. When this unit is fortuned and has Eldrad also in tow, it's a giant, hard to kill brick.

An Avatar is more useful here than Mr. Ra since he's a monster in cc,
and a footslogging Eldar army needs some counter-attack units.

wuestenfux wrote:

I've been using Maugan Ra in my foot eldar army. I attach him to my unit of Wraithguard. He gets to hide in a sea of T6...and intercepts any AP3 shots. When this unit is fortuned and has Eldrad also in tow, it's a giant, hard to kill brick.

An Avatar is more useful here than Mr. Ra since he's a monster in cc,
and a footslogging Eldar army needs some counter-attack units.

Hmm. Yeah, actually the Avatar's not that much better. Ra's got a lower Toughness and no invuln (grumble) than the Avatar, but everything else that counts is just as good. Ra's got a higher Init, better armor save and a much better shooting attack. If you want an enemy unit to see your WG as a viable threat rather than something to be avoided and picked off, Ra might really help. Plus as an IC he's more survivable in the face of enemy shooting.

Then again, having an Avatar around could make your opponent split similar shots between the WG and the Avatar. Oh, and the Avatar's fearless aura is a non-issue for the WG, but might benefit nearby Guardians. Hmm.

Anyways, it's an unconventional pairing and will be fun to playtest. It's WG so I expect some fail, but I'm wondering just how much.