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Is there a way to mathematically determine the max # of models the two templates can hit, 20mm and 25mm bases?

I ask because I've found there are some small differences in the size of templates we are using and it'd be easier to know what is hit when you don't scatter. Obviously if there is scatter then you have to work to figure it out anyway.

SMALL TEMPLATE
9 25mm at dead center, 14 if off center
21 20mm at dead center, same if off center?



LARGE TEMPLATE
25 25mm at dead center, 30 if off center
38 20mm at dead center, 44 if off center

Well, the 12-14 is the problem. Sometimes we say 12 and sometimes 13 and sometimes it looks like 14. But it seems like there should be a definitive answer to this.

There's no definitive answer because everyone else is waiting for someone to sit down, grab a dozen or so spare bases, and try to figure out the optimal answer.

The alternative to figuring out the answer, of course, being to go do something else like paint or post on the forum, and just see how it works out in the game when it actually happens.

So why should there be a definitive answer?

Only 14 under a small? We have come to the conclusion it is 21 for 20mm and 13 (or 15, I forget) for 25mm, if I remember correctly. Unfortunately, my small template seems to have grown legs and wandered off

YMMV.

If you check the diagram on the old 7th edition book under stone throwers, it shows 21 as well. Of course, this means basically nothing, but we found it matched up for the 20mm.

Maybe I was remembering my 25mm numbers there ... I play daemons so that could be true

If no one has a definitive number, I WILL break out the spare bases and figure this out.

You can fit 21 20mm bases under the 3" template. That is a central square of 9 and then an additional 3 for each side of the square. I haven't seen the other situations come up often enough to know what they are.

SMALL TEMPLATE
9 25mm under the small template.
21 20mm under the small template.

LARGE TEMPLATE
25 25mm under the small template.
38 20mm under the small template.

Please someone double check, this can't be right? I was using a drawing program to come up with this.

the small template I believe is accurate. 20mm with 21 hits is common as I use massive ranked skaven units. 9 I believe is accurate as well. the large... no idea whenever its "hit" its always been the whole unit...

Its 18 under the small template with 20mm bases as it shows in the rulebook, On a 5x4 block.

Well here's a question -

the center of the hole doesn't have to be directly on the center of a model correct? It just has to be completely over one model. So technically you have a little room to scoot it over, right? Does that ever matter?

Bennyboy, the model in the rulebook doesn't show a 5th rank, so I think it would indicate 21 is the maximum. Obviously 21 can't be hit in a 20 person unit.

Here is what i get.

using 25mm bases, and p114 which says the center hole has to be over a model. it does not say "centered".

small template 14 assuming you have at least 4x4 block
large template 30 assuming you have at least a 6x6 block
large template 28 assuming you have at least a 5x6 block

I dont have any 20mm so i cant check that but i assume the numbers will be similiar by similiar placement of the template of center on the edge near a corner.

Yea the off of center thing matters a TON more for 25mm.

I think you can get 13 dead-center anyways (for 25mm bases). Mostly because if you even clip a base, even just a smidge, it counts as a full-on hit. The reason this is difficult is that 25mm rarely align so that a full 5x4 block has no gaps between models, as well as the fact that you're pretty much going "I have an Empire Sword's width overtop the base's slanted side, ergo it's a hit" and that's very debatable.

nope,

the bases are 1", the template is 3" so if you exactly center it on a base you will hit exactly 9. as you have to be over the base, not touching the base on the edge.

lixulana wrote:nope,

the bases are 1", the template is 3" so if you exactly center it on a base you will hit exactly 9. as you have to be over the base, not touching the base on the edge.

Didja see the pretty pictures, they explain it all.

Updated my first post. Last night we almost had a chance to measure a 5" template on my spearmen unit, my opponents stupid hellcannon kept missing :p

HoverBoy wrote:

lixulana wrote:nope,

the bases are 1", the template is 3" so if you exactly center it on a base you will hit exactly 9. as you have to be over the base, not touching the base on the edge.

Didja see the pretty pictures, they explain it all.

i posted the pictures so yes i saw them

and i said if you "EXACTLY CENTER" while if you note that the pictures are not exactly center they are off center of a base and my post was in response to Minsc post that you could center the template on a base and hit more than 9.

Wich is how tactical geniouses do it

Also the bases arent 25mm, they are slightly less...

nosferatu1001 wrote:Also the bases arent 25mm, they are slightly less...

Pretty much this, which is the only reason you can get that many with a dead center. I tested it myself, and if you manage to remove all the spare space you can barely hit 13. The reason why I tend not to argue it (unless my opponent hit one of my units dead center, in which case I'm willing to give them the extra four hits) is that it's being extremely exact about it, to the point that you'll probably be known as "That Guy" in the shop wherein you keep arguing that you get more hits because "The bases don't fit properly," "The bases are slightly smaller than 25mm," "It's almost impossible to physically put the template dead center", and so on.

Nine's about right in a casual game if you center, thirteen if you're going to be "That Guy", fourteen if you place it off-center.

I just plonk the template down and agree with my opponent.

But, if we really want to know:

The bases that are in line with the centre of the template can easily be worked out if we know the base size and the radius of the template.

The other bases are a bit more complex, but possible. We can use pythagoras for this, if we assume we are placing the template on the centre of a single model.

Pick the base in question (“is this base covered?”).
Count the number of bases horizontally and vertically BETWEEN that base and the centre model (don’t include the centre or the target).

Now add half for the centre base.

Multiply this number by the base size.

So, a model on 20mm bases might have 2 horizontally and 3 vertically between it and the centre.

The distance to the target model is SQR((2.5 * 20)^2 + (3.5 * 20)^2) = 86mm.

If this is less than the radius of the template, the model's hit.

This might be a bit long-winded, but if someone wanted to produce a table, this is how they could do it.

For off-centre hits, you’d have to know how far (as a proportion) from each edge of the central base you were in each direction, and substitute this number for the half in the above formula for that direction. Working out the optimum cover achievable would probably make a good school/college maths project.

With either of these results, it would be possible to produce a squared-off template for each base size that automatically covers the optimum number of models.

And that, dear readers, is what "too much information" means.

But (and mostly for nos), the rules don't say it has to be the exact center. The hole is much smaller than the 25mm base and it is extremely easy to still be completely over a particular model and not be over its edge, but still gain a few extra hits. I'm thinking 14 is the right number for 25mm.

Why does trying to do more damage make you "that guy"

I know it doesnt need to be over the centre, I was just adding that an assumption based on 25mm bases is flawed.

Of course, complicating all of this is the fact that even if there's an optimal number of bases that are covered, you'd only actually get that optimal number against a square block of bases. If someone gets bored and reforms into a 1x20 or 3x7 formation...

Agreed, if I place a template over a unit of 25mm and then say 13 hits, because that is the REAL number, and my opponent says it can only ever be 9, then my opponent is being TFG. Its ok if I have to explain it, but if my opponent cant grasp the concept after I explain it and makes me bust out spare bases, arrange them 3x4, and put a template on top, then he is being TFG.

Mind you, I am talking about a timed tourney setting, where my opponent basicly grinds the game to a halt unless I let him get less hits than I deserve or I find some extra bases. In a friendly game busting out the bases is the best way--there is no time limit and no need to force a decision on the opponent.

Right. My point is often my buddy will say "put it over the middle, whatever gets the most." And it is so much easier if we just say "ok that's 13" and move on quickly when he inevitably rolls a hit.

As cool looking as the new blast templates are for Fantasy, I have trouble determining what exactly lies beneath the template. I printed out graph paper with 25 mm squares and 20 mm squares. Centering each template over a square, I traced the exterior of a 40K blast template for the 3" and 5" blast diameter. After counting anything that was touched by the circle described, I came up with the following values:

3" Blast template:
20 mm - 21 bases
25 mm - 13 bases

5" Blast template:
20mm - 44 bases
25 mm - 21 bases

Again, this is centered in a base, not an edge or odd placement. And if the edge of a base was touched, even a smidge, then I counted it. Thoughts?

I believe you can squeeze one more hit in on 3" 25 mm if you edge it over just a little bit. But that seems about right.