Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, just for the sake of discussion, I want to pose the question: point for point, what do you consider the best non-character 'jack in your faction(s)? Which do you think brings the most "bang for the buck"? What brings you to this conclusion?

I'll start. My choice for Protectorate is the Revenger. For only 6 points, you get a solid little guy, with an arc node, reach, and powerful charge. All great qualities for 6 points, and I would be happy to buy him with that. However, what sets him over the top for me is his Repulsor Shield. This allows him to hold off the heaviest 'jacks, and while he doesn't carry the same punch as a heavy, he is masterful at protecting himself, and hindering enemy movement.

Best bang for buck? Without a doubt, the humble Nomad from the mercenary faction.

SPD5, P+S18 smashing goodness, with reach, equipped with a buckler for 19ARM. Average heavy MAT, open hand - all for the bargain price of 6 points. SIX! Arguably the best baseline jack as he'd be worth it even without reach or the buckler, but instead, has both.

In comparison, the closest analogue is the Cygnar Stormclad. He has mostly the same stats, P+S19, ARM18 with a buckler and reach, one better MAT and DEF (not that it matters on a a heavy), and gets synergy with Stormblades and electroleap. He costs 10 points. Either somebody is overcosted, or somebody is waaay cheap. I still loves my Stormclad... but I loves my Nomads more.

I'm quite fond of my Seethers. Run or Charge without having to spend a Focus? That's nice! But wait, there's more! You also get a free additional Focus point Allocated to the `Jack! And then after you smash them up good and proper, you get a free Power Attack, essentially yet Another free Focus, to knock them down or throw them over for your buddies to finish off!

Super Awesome `Jacks to bring in via Dark Industries with the Withershadow Combine. You lose out on the free additional Focus while it's Autonomous, but you still get the free Charge and Power Attacks.

CATACLYSMUS wrote:So, just for the sake of discussion, I want to pose the question: point for point, what do you consider the best non-character 'jack in your faction(s)? Which do you think brings the most "bang for the buck"? What brings you to this conclusion?

I'll start. My choice for Protectorate is the Revenger. For only 6 points, you get a solid little guy, with an arc node, reach, and powerful charge. All great qualities for 6 points, and I would be happy to buy him with that. However, what sets him over the top for me is his Repulsor Shield. This allows him to hold off the heaviest 'jacks, and while he doesn't carry the same punch as a heavy, he is masterful at protecting himself, and hindering enemy movement.

In general an arc node can never really be a "bang for your buck" jack. When used with a caster who doesn't really care about arcing spells, they're just melee focused light jacks who are usually in the same point category as heavies or very close to.

In comparison, the closest analogue is the Cygnar Stormclad. He has mostly the same stats, P+S19, ARM18 with a buckler and reach, one better MAT and DEF (not that it matters on a a heavy), and gets synergy with Stormblades and electroleap. He costs 10 points. Either somebody is overcosted, or somebody is waaay cheap. I still loves my Stormclad... but I loves my Nomads more.

The Stormclad gets free focus just for having a solid unit nearby, better MAT, P+S, and DEF, it also has a ranged attack and electroleap on ranged and melee. Saying that's "all" it has over the Nomad is a real short sell as all of those things routinely matter in game.

For Retribution, I'd be inclined to say the Manticore. For 8 pts it's a fast heavy that can easily hit hard enough to take on other heavies, has a ranged attack that's respectable with a high ROF and some covering fire just in case. Versatile with a side of face beating.

The Charger being only 4 points seems criminal sometimes for the damage it can inflict. The mercs have a lot of really cheap jacks. I was debating in my head whether I liked the Nomad or the Freebooter more. The Nomad has great hitting power and armor for the price, but for the same price the Freebooter's Lash ability is great for putting up roadblocks against models that like to cause knockdown. Also it has 2 P+S 14 open fists which isn't bad, and Chain Attack: Grab & Smash can be pretty brutal.

I am going with the titan gladiator, good staying power multiple base attacks nice special ability with slams and a great animus.

Slayer. 6pts for a heavy that can wreck nearly any jack in the game.

True you have to protect it, but if you do...

Mastershake wrote:The Stormclad gets free focus just for having a solid unit nearby, better MAT, P+S, and DEF, it also has a ranged attack and electroleap on ranged and melee. Saying that's "all" it has over the Nomad is a real short sell as all of those things routinely matter in game.

Keep in mind that Stormclad is my favourite Cygnar warjack. But in all seriousness, the only abilities on the Stormclad that are guaranteed to see use regardless of situation are its +1P+S and +1MAT - the added defense only really helps against jacks with crippled systems as otherwise DEF12 is still easily hit by everything. The rest is situational. Between its shooting and electroleap, the shooting has a higher chance of being used - but in practice, you'll only ever use it if there's an enemy within the the 3" band between its shooting threat range and its 10" melee threat range. Electroleap only comes into play IF there are enemy models closer than 2" from your target, otherwise, you are leaping back onto your 'Clad. As for shooting e-leaps, its a nice extra, but an extra random POW10 off a ROF1 shot, the amount of impact its going to make is so minimal, I'm not sure its worth extra points. I'm not sure that two attribute boosts, and three situational boosts/abilities = 4 points, but YMMV. The free focus aspect is also situational, as you're paying 5 points to get that ability and the 'Clad has to stay near them AND the free focus doesn't get allocated if he's already got 3. I do agree that he gets more flexible the more synergy that you add to the list, but that's my point - he's not efficient at all, as he really begs for all this extra stuff to be around to fully utilize his abilities. IMO, Cygnar pays for a lot of "toolbox" abilities which may/may not see play, or have the costs for expected synergy built right in (stormguard being a 6/9 unit and trenchers being 6/10 are a pet peeve of mine).

Nomad on the other hand is just as fast, slightly less tough, slightly less accurate (not that this matters against his usual targets), and hits slightly less hard for almost 1/2 the price. He's NOT as flexible because he's not paying 4 points for bells and whistles... but in his primary role, he beats face almost as good as the Stormclad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

phillosmaster wrote:The Charger being only 4 points seems criminal sometimes for the damage it can inflict. The mercs have a lot of really cheap jacks. I was debating in my head whether I liked the Nomad or the Freebooter more. The Nomad has great hitting power and armor for the price, but for the same price the Freebooter's Lash ability is great for putting up roadblocks against models that like to cause knockdown. Also it has 2 P+S 14 open fists which isn't bad, and Chain Attack: Grab & Smash can be pretty brutal.

IMHO, Freebooter loses for being less durable. That small difference in ARM means its loosing its arms much more frequently and a chain attacking jack loses a lot of function once that happens

Electroleap will not target the model that is making the attack.

Aduro wrote:Electroleap will not target the model that is making the attack.

Oh hey! You are correct! I got all caught up with my stupid Stormguards leaping onto their friends.

Aduro wrote:I'm quite fond of my Seethers. Run or Charge without having to spend a Focus? That's nice! But wait, there's more! You also get a free additional Focus point Allocated to the `Jack! And then after you smash them up good and proper, you get a free Power Attack, essentially yet Another free Focus, to knock them down or throw them over for your buddies to finish off.

I'm not convinced, is a Seether really worth as much as a Slayer a Warwitch Siren a Necrotech and a Scrap Thrall?

keezus wrote:

phillosmaster wrote:The Charger being only 4 points seems criminal sometimes for the damage it can inflict. The mercs have a lot of really cheap jacks. I was debating in my head whether I liked the Nomad or the Freebooter more. The Nomad has great hitting power and armor for the price, but for the same price the Freebooter's Lash ability is great for putting up roadblocks against models that like to cause knockdown. Also it has 2 P+S 14 open fists which isn't bad, and Chain Attack: Grab & Smash can be pretty brutal.

IMHO, Freebooter loses for being less durable. That small difference in ARM means its loosing its arms much more frequently and a chain attacking jack loses a lot of function once that happens

I think you talked me out of it. I think my enthusiasm for the pirate jack design is clouding my judgment

George Spiggott wrote:I'm not convinced, is a Seether really worth as much as a Slayer a Warwitch Siren a Necrotech and a Scrap Thrall?

In my opinion yes. He gets to run around by himself, doing his own thing, and needs very little if any help from anyone. He gets to Charge something, gaining the extra movement and Boosted damage roll for free. Mat 8 and he's hitting whatever he wants usually. Follow up with the Tusks just to scratch them up some more, then hit the target with the other claw, Boost that damage roll with your bonus Focus, then give it a Double Handed Throw to put it in a position where something else in your army can finish it off (Withershadow and/or Machine Wraiths tend to follow behind my Seethers) or into another target to knock them both down. A Slayer and a Warwitch just can't pull this kind of Awesome off.

And in a Mortenebra list he's 1 less point as well! (as are all the other helljacks... XD )

Seethers for Cryx, but everyone knows that.

For Khador, I submit that the Juggernaut is the best non-character 'Jack out there. For a mere 7 points the POW 19 Frozen goodness is just too damn good to pass up.

Oh yes, the almighty Juggs! Oh how I love the Juggernaut... I just wish it had better than SPD 4... Then again, fast Khador jacks would be almost as broken as Legion!

Cryonicleech wrote:Seethers for Cryx, but everyone knows that.

For nine points? No thanks. I'll take a slayer for 6 any day.

I really like the Devastator for Khador. It is the toughest jack in the game, it hits pretty darn hard with it's fists, and it can Nuke a ton of models down, not to mention it's caster killing ability with it's nuke, boosted pwr 18 that auto hits is pretty nice.

From my limited gaming experience, I have gotten the most out of this jack.

Aduro wrote:In my opinion yes. He gets to run around by himself, doing his own thing, and needs very little if any help from anyone. He gets to Charge something, gaining the extra movement and Boosted damage roll for free. Mat 8 and he's hitting whatever he wants usually. Follow up with the Tusks just to scratch them up some more, then hit the target with the other claw, Boost that damage roll with your bonus Focus, then give it a Double Handed Throw to put it in a position where something else in your army can finish it off (Withershadow and/or Machine Wraiths tend to follow behind my Seethers) or into another target to knock them both down. A Slayer and a Warwitch just can't pull this kind of Awesome off.

You're not really comparing apples to apples. The Withershadow Combine and a Machine Wraith add an additional 50% to the points cost. I'm not doubting your synergy or tactics, the Seether is a good purchase but I can get the same Focus efficiency with the Slayer, Siren, Necrotech with similar damage output and better survivability for the same 9 points paid for just the Seether.

The Seether's got a place but not the best warjack for its points. Even with Mortenebra tier where Seethers are 8 points, 5 point Slayers are better IMO.

I'm actually having difficulty coming to a decision for Cryx. The Slayer is by far my most used warjack in in MkII (I own two and will eventually own three when I buy the plastic warjack kit) but recently I've found a love for the Reaper (paired Reapers to be precise).


Mercenaries are easier, the Nomad, Mule, Mariner, Vanguard, Buccaneer and Renegade are all solid for their points and each has a niche. I would have to say that the best Mercenary warjack is Wrong Eye and Snapjaw for the Four Star Syndicate. Though they are not warjacks (they're a solo and a warbeast) they lack manoeuvrability and access to battlegroup spells and abilities. They perform exactly the same role as a heavy melee warjack but are immune to shooting and spells due to their animus and require no focus from the warcaster. At 9 points they are the best expenditure of the points in any army requiring a melee 'warjack' once the warcaster's warjack allowance has been spent.

TLDR: Snapjaw is the best mercenary 'warjack'.

You don't Need the Withershadow or Wraiths for a Seether to be good. They're just something that he gets to help out nicely.

A Slayer with a Siren generates only a single Focus, and only when used in a certain activation order, and you completely lose the benefit of the Siren if you want to give the Slayer more than just one Focus. The Seether, on his own, generates essentially Three free Focus, and still gets all of that free Focus if you want to slide one or two his way from your caster. The big thing to me is the Smash And Grab, which allows you to make all your normal Initial Attacks and then still make a Power Attack. The Slayer has no way to do that, and has to sacrifice All of his normal attacks to make a Power Attack.

Aduro wrote:You don't Need the Withershadow or Wraiths for a Seether to be good. They're just something that he gets to help out nicely.

A Slayer with a Siren generates only a single Focus, and only when used in a certain activation order, and you completely lose the benefit of the Siren if you want to give the Slayer more than just one Focus. The Seether, on his own, generates essentially Three free Focus, and still gets all of that free Focus if you want to slide one or two his way from your caster. The big thing to me is the Smash And Grab, which allows you to make all your normal Initial Attacks and then still make a Power Attack. The Slayer has no way to do that, and has to sacrifice All of his normal attacks to make a Power Attack.

This. For 3 points over a Slayer you get a free focus every turn, running/charging does not cost focus, (very nice) AND then you factor in the chain attack. Now if you want several heavy jacks and it's not a Morty list I can see where you might want to go with Slayers, but if you only need a jack or 2, there is quite possibly no better non-character jack in Cryx. Really, I can't think of a single caster that couldn't take full advantage of a Seether, due to their general self-sustainability.

This isn't to say I don't like the Slayer; quite to the contrary, the Slayer is a great jack for its points. It can make every type of power attack, it gets 3 initials in melee, and it has a slightly better defense than most heavies, trading away a point or 3 of armor. Though really with a beatstick heavy like the Slayer, if you play him right his ARM won't matter.

Point for point, I like the Reckoner. 8pts gets you SPD 5, ARM 19, DEF 12 against living models and most ranged attacks, Reach, a decent POW gun with Assault and a huge single target DEF debuff. With Choir buff, three focus, and average rolling, a Reckoner can expect to lay out 24.5 damage points to a Khador heavy on charge, 28 if you're able to walk up. Against anything with less than ARM 19 or with some decent rolling, expect wreck markers.

Mastershake wrote: In general an arc node can never really be a "bang for your buck" jack. When used with a caster who doesn't really care about arcing spells, they're just melee focused light jacks who are usually in the same point category as heavies or very close to.

Of course, everything is situational, but all of my Warcasters (Reznik, eFeora, p&eKreoss, Harbinger, and Ad-Raza have at least one spell that benefits greatly from being arced. It allows much greater tactical flexibility for my force, and provides me with a back door in, if I play carefully. The shield/arc node combo is one that you may not have considered. More often than not, the revenger's left arm is going to survive being hit once. The majority of heavy hitters don't have reach. Therefore, the enemy gets a hit in, and then 'Bonk!' I have an unengaged arc node to give him fits. No other arc node 'jack in the game is as resilient as this little guy, and that is what sets him apart for me. Examples:
1. Lancer: Great abilities against enemy warjacks, but what happens when a DT Mauler punches him in the nuts? Wasted point, and less effective.
2. Angry chickens: Very maneuverable, and cheap as hell, but Arc nodes is really all they ARE. One hit, and they are pretty much out for the count, and their attack is very weak, unless you burn focus to improve it.
3. Guardian: Ok, a pretty awesome jack, but too slow, and his best feature is critical pitch, and I just don't like to rely on crit rolls to make a difference.
4. Chimera: Very flimsy. Good maneuverablilty, but not really a good all-rounder.
5. Phoenix: This 'jack is truly badass, but a little too high on points to make him the top in the Arc Node game for me.

Of course, the game changes a bit when you only have one. That's why I usually run 2 at 50pts.

My other faction is Skorne, and I have to agree with Mr. Kong. The gladiator is a beast!

Odd, I've never had a Revenger's left arm survive being hit once, then again the only melee I generally hit them with are MHAs and Manticores combo striking, so it's usually a pretty severe hit. All of this still goes back to the real question of "does your caster need an arc node?" If the answer is no, the Revenger can't even approach the Crusader. If the answer is maybe, then it might depending on the game. TBH I haven't noticed any menoth caster save eSeverius that really wanted to offensive spell cast enough for an arc node to be useful. In general though if you're saying "best bang for your buck" it shouldn't come with caveats like "if you need to arc spells" or "if you're using certain solos/units/buffs".

I gotta agree that for Menoth it's the Reckoner. Seen it many a time and it never fails to suprise me exactly how far that damn thing can threat when it assaults. It has solid hitting power, a respectable gun and you always have to remember that damn ashen veil if you want to melee anything standing near it. It's got a great set of abilities for its points and SPD 5 is a nice improvement over most Menoth heavies.

I think you are looking at the arc node statistically, not tactically. Statistically, yes, the Crusader is a better buy, because it is heavier, more resilient, and punches harder. The same arguement can be made for the Castigator, Reckoner, etc.
Tactically, PoM relies on synergy more than just about any other faction. It is what we are good at, and it is the main way we defeat our opponents. Without options, or what I call the 'Pain Onion', we are pretty much an underpowered Khador army; slow and kinda tough. Among other things, the Revenger gives us an option to outflank the enemy, wrongfoot him, and confuse him. With two of the most powerful Spellcasters in the game (Severius and Harbinger), as well as having so many casters with serious offensive spells (everyone but the High Reclaimer(s) and Ad-Raza), the usefulness of an arc node is felt much more often than not.
Therefore, tactically speaking, (which is the way I look at the game, primarily), the Revenger's usefulness is the rule, rather than a conditional exception. Thus, the caveat would not be "only if you arc spells", but "why wouldn't you?"...
Well, the second isn't really a caveat, but you get the idea.

I gotta admit, out of all of the games I've fought against Menoth, "serious offensive spells" is not a term I'd apply to the general pack of casters. Granted each caster has the token magic attack spell like every other caster, but considering most of Menoth has old man stats, offensive casting for the faction is rare because it generally leaves them with next to no focus to camp leaving them open to assassination from any and everywhere.

What exactly is the Harbinger Arcing? The only offensive spell I've seen her use is Cataclysm which would be so low powered if the target was far enough away that you actually had to arc it that it wouldn't be useful. In general it seems like a far better use for her focus is camping to prevent assassination while she's martyring and occaisionally dropping upkeeps and continous effects.

I think you are looking at the arc node statistically, not tactically

I've been playing WM for a minute, I know what an arc node does, and that in the hands of a caster who has "serious offensive spells" they can be worth their weight in gold regardless of stats. Not every Menoth caster, or even most Menoth casters, benefit from having an arc node. In fact the Severiuses are the only Menoth casters I've seen that I would invest the points in an arc node for. For other casters, it's cute, but not an important part of their strategy.

This isn't a "Menoth has Synergy" discussion, but an "Arc nodes are caster dependent" discussion. And they are regardless of faction. No faction automatically includes arc nodes in every list or has a role for them in every list (just ask Terminus), which is why you can't really call them a good buy for their points without adding a caveat.

Well, the Arc Node depends on the caster to be effective, but as all of my armies tend to include a warcaster...
Just kidding. I think where you and I differ is our play style. What drew me in to Protectorate were the cool warjacks and the Exemplar models. Therefore, my meta has developed over the years around these pieces of the puzzle, and my lists all revolve around making this theme work. One of my early tactical problems was the fact that, within the limits of my army choices, I didn't have a good answer for ultrafast or RAT-heavy lists, and tended to get my ass handed to me by...
Arc Nodes. Deneghra and Asphyxious specifically, when using 3 or sometimes even 4 angry chickens, always seemed to be able to find that little crack in my Menoth to arc in that one little spell that ruined my shyte.
Therefore, because I wanted more flexibility to press more quickly on the opponent, I started running 2, or even sometimes 3 Revengers. (Never in MM, but at 50 pts, it's not unheard of.) This allows me to force the enemy to react to fireball-sprouting little jacks, and holds up his heavier units, giving my vanguard the unmolested time to bring it home. I have never not run at least one revenger in my list, because you never know...

BlThis isn't a "Menoth has Synergy" discussion, but an "Arc nodes are caster dependent" discussion

You can't, in my opinion, talk about any tactics in the game, especially Protectorate tactics, without giving due consideration to synergy. No 'jack is ever fielded by itself, and once again, IMO, one needs to consider its place in one's list when evaluating its value.


Oh, and BTW, the first spell I look to arc from the Harbinger is 'Fear of God.' Turn 1, when I don't have much to worry about yet, I rush a revenger forward, and drop that little gem on the enemy's prize unit, or a fast threat. Almost as good as Deneghra's Crippling Grasp, with a potential cast range of 30"!

So, for me, my one 'Autoinclude' warjack, that I don't think any other faction can quite match, point for point, is the Revenger.

However, if it wasn't for him, I'd agree that the Reckoner would be the best.

Oh, and BTW, the first spell I look to arc from the Harbinger is 'Fear of God.' Turn 1, when I don't have much to worry about yet, I rush a revenger forward, and drop that little gem on the enemy's prize unit, or a fast threat. Almost as good as Deneghra's Crippling Grasp, with a potential cast range of 30"!

Then eEiryss shoots a joe and turns it off while the army jumps the revenger and you lost 6 pts to kill a joe...fair trade and its not like every army but cryx can take eEiryss or every Hordes army now has access to Thrullgs or anything crazy...

Also, the term Synergy actually refers to mutually beneficial arrangements where both parties are getting benefits, not simple buffs or combos. Last I checked arc nodes aren't getting much out of that deal other than being fed to the enemy.

3 revengers is too much regardless of caster or points unless it's a multi-caster game. It sounds like you've just gotten arc node paranoid after one too many cryx games. Your play style is pretty atypical for Menoth, if it works for you then by all means, but you have to realize you're in the minority by a pretty wide margin, so very few other Menoth players are even going to regard the Revenger as anything more than a niche jack.

Comes from playing Space Marines for too many years, I guess. I just don't like losing massive amounts of models to achieve my goal. I also dont like Zealots. Comes from being in Iraq for too many months, I guess.
Plus, while the army is jumping the Revenger, My army is jumping their warcaster. Trust me, it works alot. Of course, it also doesn't work sometimes, too. I'm happy with it, if sacrificing a 6 point jack wins me the game more times than not.
Actually, you are referring to Symbiosis. Synergy is the phenomenon of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts. Sure, the Arc node dies, but the point is to kill the warcaster, or hold the ground while denying it to the enemy. If that loss allows me to charge my vengers to where I want them, or keep those damn Banes from charging me for a turn, then it is worth it.
And if I'm the only PoM player who runs it like this, then that means they wont see me comin!

Khador: Juggy all the way. I'd probably put the Kodiak second because of Smash and Grab, but I also enjoy throwing the enemy warjacks and 'beasts at the respective caster.

Cygnar: Defender or the Ironclad is a coin flip for me. The Charger is just too fragile and not useful against most jacks for me. The Charger is great at caster hunting though but so is the Defender and you can load up a Defender and go kill a cortex with it (along with most of the jack). The Ironclad just has so many options available as well. Lots of flexibility with either.