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Today's debate is the skaven spell cracks call.

It protrudes a line 4d6 infront of the caster, all models take an I test or die basically.

Now, this has caused alot of dissagrement. **Can it be used in combat?!**

I personally say no because surley it would just be silly for them to be able to focus cast this whilst in combat, it isnt a hex or augment spell so can it be used in combat?

Let the Disscussion Begin!!

Does it have a spell type? If it's a magic missile then no. If it is a Direct Damage spell then you can cast it while in combat, just not at the unit you are in combat with or any other unit that is engaged in close combat.

My 2 cents.

Er i dont think thats right.. you cant cast damge spells at other units whilst you are in combat can you? and no cracks call doesnt have a spell type

thelordoflife wrote:Er i dont think thats right.. you cant cast damge spells at other units whilst you are in combat can you? and no cracks call doesnt have a spell type

BRB, Pg.31, Choosing a Target, par.1, "Targeting restrictions vary from spell to spell. However, unless stated otherwise the following rules apply: The target must lie within the Wizard's forward arc. The Wizard does not need line of sight to his target. The target must lie within the spell's range. Wizards cannot target spells at units engaged in close combat."

BRB, Pg.31, Direct Damage, "Direct Damage spells can only ever be cast on enemy units. Sometimes a direct damage spell will use a template to determine which models are hit. When this happens, the template cannot be placed in such a way that it touches friendly units or enemy units that are in close combat--that is not to say that the template won't scatter onto friendly units later, depending on the spell."

According the rules you should be able to cast a direct damage spell while you are engaged in combat. You just can't target the enemy unit you are fighting or any other unit engaged in close combat.

For example, if your wizard is on the edge of the rank and has line of sight to another enemy unit not engaged in combat, then you would be ale to cast a direct damage spell at said unit. Magic Missile spells cannot be cast while a wizard or his unit is engaged in close combat.

Respectfully,
DarkAngelHopeful

This gets back into the whole debate over whether the BRB spell restrictions apply to army book lores.

At best, it has no restrictions. At worst, it follows the general BRB restrictions, which means forward arc, can't be cast into combat, no LoS.

Well yes, non-BRB lores follow the general rules for spell casting - otherwise you cannot cast them at all.

Cracks call also does not target any unit, so you can cast it while in combat, fire it forwards and hurt stuff. Possibly.

Well technically it does not target anything, so it should be fine to cast it if he is in combat, or cast into combat.

Similar to purple sun or other magical vortexes, You can cast it so it passes over models in combat since technically, you arent targeting them.

Okay, so, since it doesn't "target" anything, you could technically cast it straight ahead into the combat the mage is engaged in and potentially kill those models? Furthermore, you could cast it into any number of close combats because it's not "targeting" them? Cool.

Yes - from memory at no point does it use the word target (it would be tricky for it to, as it has variable range) so you should be fine.

And dont you thinks its a little rediculus that this spell therefore could sink massive things like giants and dragon ogre shaggoths and ghorgons and cygors. and dragons -.- dont you think its a little rediculus and especially in combat?

Not really. Its magic. Making a big hole appear and faling down said big hole seems to make perfect sense.

I agree. Cracks call is a very straight forward spell.
1. cast spell, there is no reference to a target simply pick a direction and roll 4d6. No restrictions on targets/ line of sight listed.
2. establish where the line runs, resolve initiative checks.

I think its a very fluffy spell, and it makes sense in how it work. The spell cast creates literally a giant crack, it hits a giant, could a giant simply jump out of the way of a huge crack given its usually slow? Nope, initiative check and figure if it fails its fallen into a huge hole in the ground. Its not any more ridiculous then Gateway, Purple Sun, other big name spells out there.

Even nastier considering that there are no "look out sir" rolls for it. Byebye Slann.

Why no "look out sir"

Cuz look out sir works against hits, this spell however dosen't hit it causes tests to each model in a line.

More accurately stated, look out sir only works against templates or where the spell says so, such as Lore of Metal lvl 4 spell. See page 93 for LoS rules. Alternatively, page 97 details rules for a 4+ LoS rule where you get it against any type of shooting attack as long as you are within 3" of a friendly unit with 5 or more models of the characters troop type.

My question now is do spells count as shooting attacks? And could the character use the 4+ LoS rule with this Skaven spell?

Magic missiles are shooting attacks, can't help you with army specific lores though.

I would argue that Cracks Call is a template, just like a cannonball is a template.

Crack's call was more clearly defined as a template in 7th. In fact, the FAQ in 7th said to treat it as a cannon shot. That has been conspicuously removed from the 8th ed. FAQ, so it looks like no Look Out Sir is permitted.

RZ

haaha.

we were arguing over this spell for ages.

i sed it could be cast cos it doesnt say otherwise

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:

thelordoflife wrote:Er i dont think thats right.. you cant cast damge spells at other units whilst you are in combat can you? and no cracks call doesnt have a spell type

BRB, Pg.31, Choosing a Target, par.1, "Targeting restrictions vary from spell to spell. However, unless stated otherwise the following rules apply: The target must lie within the Wizard's forward arc. The Wizard does not need line of sight to his target. The target must lie within the spell's range. Wizards cannot target spells at units engaged in close combat."

BRB, Pg.31, Direct Damage, "Direct Damage spells can only ever be cast on enemy units. Sometimes a direct damage spell will use a template to determine which models are hit. When this happens, the template cannot be placed in such a way that it touches friendly units or enemy units that are in close combat--that is not to say that the template won't scatter onto friendly units later, depending on the spell."

According the rules you should be able to cast a direct damage spell while you are engaged in combat. You just can't target the enemy unit you are fighting or any other unit engaged in close combat.

For example, if your wizard is on the edge of the rank and has line of sight to another enemy unit not engaged in combat, then you would be ale to cast a direct damage spell at said unit. Magic Missile spells cannot be cast while a wizard or his unit is engaged in close combat.

Respectfully,
DarkAngelHopeful

Doesn't this explanation basically say you couldn't use cracks call in combat?

i mean isn't this the one that says place the small template in front of the caster and move it 4d6, and then that one rule says you can't place a template over a unit in combat and if the wizard is in combat then the unit directly in front of him is too.

And even if this one says line and not templace it could be considered to be a sort of "line template" instead of a round one.

there is no such thing as a "line template". There is nothing in the rules prevent cracks call from being cast while the GS is in combat.

Nor is there anything saying he cant aim it so it goes through a unit in combat.

Template is s defined term, there is no line template.

Cracks call can most defninitely be used in and through combat.

Ok then, but you would have to distribute danage as per shooting right?

Can't just assume a giant fissure opening up in the middle of combat will spare your own guys.

Does it say you distribute damage as shooting?

DO exactly as the spell says. It affects the models hit by the line, and no others.

He can cast it while he is in combat, but since it doesn't state otherwise, he can't cast it at other models in combat.

yes but is specifically says in the BRB that shooting has to be randomized because "Though they may appear two be two orderly ranked groups standing face to face combat is in fact a swirling fracas." or something very close to thes, so it may not pass through your models but that doesn't mean that they're not along the line drawn by the spell.

Except it isnt shooting, as it doesnt say it is. The fact it requires the MODELS hit to take a test makes it very definitely NOT shooting, as Shooting affects units by default.

Malleus - which is fine, as the spell *does not target anything*

You can shoot it at models in combat just fine, as you at no point are required to target the spell at anything,

I know that it's not shooting, I'm just pointing out a precedent for why the line may only pass through enimies would actually hit allies as well, for at least the ranks in combat the allies and enimies wouldn't simply be where they look on the table but would actually be all over the place, swapping places with one another.

And actually I'm against the use of this in combat all together because a direct damage spell can't target a unit in combat so any time you declare casting and direction with a unit in combat within the maximum range you should have to redeclare your target.

Cracks call doesnt HAVE a target. That's the point.

Pick a direction. Does that sound like you are targetting anything? How do you "target" when you have a range of between 4 and 24"? What happens if you dont reach this target that you dont have to declare?

No, it doesnt pick a target, it isnt shooting and therefore can be cast through combat just fine. No randomisation, NOTHING. IT isnt a valid precedent.