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I was shown this by a friend, am curious what you guys think about it. All the credit for it goes to www.ruleslawyers.com.

"ISSUE:

How does the chaos dreadnought’s fire frenzy result work in 5th edition?

HOLDING:

A fire frenzying dreadnought may pivot during the movement phase, then must target the closest model within any of its 45 degree firing arcs, before any pivoting takes place, at the beginning of the shooting phase.


ANALYSIS:

Justicar GiantKiller delivers the opinion of the court.

Approximately one out of every six turns, a Chaos Dreadnought will go crazier than a pet ‘[see forum posting rules] and start shooting the first thing unlucky enough to wander into its crosshairs. Since that’ll probably happen at least once in every average-length game, it’s important to know how this rule interacts with the 5th edition rules.

As always, we start with the text of the rule.

“Fire Frenzy. The Chaos Dreadnought may not move or assault this turn. At the beginning of the Shooting phase it must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit (friend or foe!) and fire all of its weapons against it – twice! If the Chaos Dreadnought cannot fire any ranged weapons, treat this result as a ‘2-5 Sane’ result instead.” Codex:Chaos p. 40

So, assuming the Dreadnaught is capable of firing at least one ranged weapon, to comply with this rule, the dreadnaught must:
1. Not move in the movement phase
2. Go first in the shooting phase
3. Determine which is the closest visible unit
4. Pivot toward that unit
5. Shoot all guns at that unit twice
6. Not assault in the assault phase

This rule’s first effect comes in the movement phase. The Fire Frenzied Dread can’t move. It isn’t immobilized permanently, but it must remain stationary in that phase. But according to the 5th edition rules, as long as the dread isn’t immobilized, it can still pivot, because pivoting doesn’t count as movement.

“Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as stationary (however, immobilised vehicles may not even pivot).” BGB p.57 (Note that this language was not present in 4th edition See 4th ed. BGB p. 61. A fire frenzying dreadnought could not have pivoted in a 4th edition movement phase.)

Then we move on to the shooting phase, where the first thing we must do is determine which is the “closest visible unit”. To do that, we have to know what the Dreadnought can and can’t see.

One very significant addition to 5th addition was true line of sight. What a model can see is no longer an abstract concept, instead players are instructed to get down to a model’s level and find out what the model can actually “see” from its point of view. For infantry models, line of sight is drawn from “the eyes of the firing model”. See BGB p. 16. But what about vehicles? The rules tell us that vehicles “see” from their weapon mountings:

“When firing a vehicle’s weapons, … line of sight is determined from the weapon’s mounting point and along its barrel …” BGB p. 56

So if we’re determining line of sight from the mounting point and along the barrel, the vehicle can “see” anything that is within its weapon’s firing arc. For hull mounted weapons, that’s 45 degrees from its mounting point. See BGB p.59, incl. diagram. Walkers’ weapons are all considered hull-mounted. See BGB p.72. That means a dreadnought can only “see” a model if it is within a 45 degree arc from the mounting point of any of its ranged weapons. Note this is a major shift from 4th edition, when walkers had a 180 degree firing arc. See 4th ed. BGB p. 64. If there are units within any of the Dreadnought’s 45 degree Line-of-Sight arcs, we choose the closest one. That will be the dreadnought’s target. If there isn’t a unit in those arcs, the dreadnought cannot fire this turn. Obviously the dreadnought cannot pivot to face its target until after a target is selected (as we can’t turn to face something if we don’t know what it is we’re trying to face).

This is a definite change from the normal shooting process for walkers. Ordinarily, a walker pivots first, then determines range and line of sight:

“When firing a walker’s weapons, pivot the walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target and then measure the range from the weapon itself and line of sight from the mounting point of the weapon …” BGB p.72

The fire frenzy rule, on the other hand, instructs us to determine range and line of sight (to find out which is the closest model) and then pivot toward that model to fire. When rules conflict, The Specific > General Canon tells us that the more specific rule controls. In this case, it is the fire frenzy rule that governs because it is the more specific rule (specific only to dreadnaughts afflicted by fire frenzy). The result is, the fire-frenzied dreadnought is stuck with its 45 degree arcs as they exist at the beginning of the shooting phase. It may not pivot so that a closer unit, or any unit, becomes visible. It must target the closest unit that is already in line of sight at the beginning of the shooting phase, and then pivot to face that unit, and then fire all weapons at that target twice.

But if the target is already within line of sight, why pivot at all? Is this interpretation rendering Fire Frenzy’s “pivot on the spot” language superfluous in violation of The Superfluous Language Canon? We find that it is not. Chaos Dreadnoughts may have ranged weapons on both arms. See Codex:CSM p. 95. It is entirely possible then, that a target may be within the firing arc of one weapon (and therefore visible) but not within the firing arc of the other weapon. The purpose of the pivot is to ensure that, once a target is selected, both weapons may be brought to bear against it.

Putting it all together, this means that a Chaos player does maintain some limited control over a fire-frenzying dreadnought. By being aware of the dreadnought’s 45 degree firing arcs, the player can pivot the frenzied Dreadnought in the movement phase so that the most desireable target becomes the closest visible target at the beginning of the shooting phase. However, if the player fails to bring a target into any of the 45 degree firing arcs by pivoting during the movement phase, the Dreadnought will not be able to fire at all that turn and will miss its opportunity to “double tap” a target."

- www.ruleslawyer.com

Please help me determine the validity of the argument.

Whut...


A fire frenzying dreadnought may pivot during the movement phase, then must target the closest model within any of its 45 degree firing arcs, before any pivoting takes place, at the beginning of the shooting phase.

This is correct.

Although technically it is possible to 'pivot the dread' to control who/what it fires at, I think most people play this as the dread pivots and shoots and the target with the closest euclidean distance to the dread.

There is a reason that showed up at the 'Rules Lawyer' site...

calypso2ts wrote:Although technically it is possible to 'pivot the dread' to control who/what it fires at, I think most people play this as the dread pivots and shoots and the target with the closest euclidean distance to the dread.

There is a reason that showed up at the 'Rules Lawyer' site...

The reason is that people get confused.

The RaW is clear if you read it.

Gwar! wrote:The RaW is clear if you read it.

Where does it define what visible means?

Arschbombe wrote:

Gwar! wrote:The RaW is clear if you read it.

Where does it define what visible means?

Where does it define what "and" means? Where does it define what "1" means?

It's called English, and the book is written in it.

Gwar! wrote:Where does it define what "and" means? Where does it define what "1" means?

It's called English, and the book is written in it.

Funny.

You know what I mean. Where do the rules say that visible in the Fire Frenzy rule means "to which the dread has Line of Sight in one of its current weapon arcs"? It doesn't and that's the root of the argument.

The walker shooting rules tell you to pivot to face a target and then check to see if they have LOS. It doesn't say to check LOS and then pivot. So you can't know if a target directly behind the frenzied dread is visible to the dread until you pivot and check LOS.

Arschbombe wrote: It doesn't say to check LOS and then pivot.

The fire frenzy rules do, however.

"At the begining of the Shooting phase it must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit"

This is NOT the same as walker rules for targeting.

kirsanth wrote:The fire frenzy rules do, however.

"At the begining of the Shooting phase it must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit"

This is NOT the same as walker rules for targeting.

Are we reading the same rules?

The crux is still the word visible. Pivot is clear. Closest is clear. The problem is what they mean by visible. Your side says visible must mean something the dread has LOS to with one of it's weapons before it pivots. I say you don't know what is visible to the dread without pivoting and checking LOS as per the walker rules. There's nothing in the fire frenzy rule that changes how walkers check LOS to targets. If you don't use the walker rules for targeting how can you possibly know what's visible to the walker?

Arschbombe wrote:

kirsanth wrote:The fire frenzy rules do, however.

"At the begining of the Shooting phase it must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit"

This is NOT the same as walker rules for targeting.

Your side says visible must mean something the dread has LOS to with one of it's weapons before it pivots.

My side? I was pointing out that what you were stating as not in the rules, actually is in the rules.

The argument is both valid and sound.

Here's some excellent diagrams that Arschbombe posted in another thread.



In this first diagram the closest visible unit is A, as it is within line of sight of the Dreadnought's left arm. The Dreadnought would pivot left to bring the unit into the overlap of both its weapons.



In this second diagram there are no visible units, as none of them are within a line of sight of either of the Dreadnought's weapons. With no target within line of sight, the Dreadnought cannot fire its weapons and is therefore Sane for the following turn.

Just to point out something else point 2 of your list is incorrect. There is nothing that states that the dreadnaught must be the 1st unit to fire in the shooting phase.
The diagrams above are very pretty but moot. The rules say that the dreadnaught must target the closest visible target. The unit 6" away, unless it is behind some object that blocks LoS is the closest visible target. The rule clearly says that the dreadnaught must pivot before firing at the closest unit. That is the unit that would be in the LoS of the dreadnaught with the least amount of space between it and the dreadnaught.

I thought a lawyers job was to make up laws and convince people they were true?

And yes, excellent Diagrams, though they lack the Skulls and pauldrons to be GRIMDARK level excellent.

I thought it was to take your money so that you do not have to follow the laws?

(ie you have a speeding ticket, Wait a lawyer! Now I had a headlight that was out...)

Read the Codex. Fire Frenzy states that "At the beginning of the Shooting phase..."

kirsanth wrote:
My side? I was pointing out that what you were stating as not in the rules, actually is in the rules.

Yes, your side. There are two camps for this argument. You fall into one of them.

You have shown nothing of the sort. Nowhere does the fire frenzy rule define how to determine what is visible to the dreadnought. You are making an assumption that the normal walker rules for determining that "visibility" are ignored and you only choose from the targets the dread is facing at the time fire frenzy is rolled. That's how it worked in 4th edition when walkers had 180 degree firing arcs but couldn't pivot in the shooting phase. Now in 5th they have narrow firing arcs, but can pivot to face any direction. Walkers now pivot first and then check LOS they don't have to check LOS before they pivot.

Here's another diagram built based on how you see the rules.



Dread has one target within one of its arcs so that's the closest "visible" unit is unit A. It pivots to face A, but now B is visible. Does it still shoot A or has B become the closest visible unit? If it switches to B and C comes into view does it then have to target C?

Arschbombe wrote:Yes, your side. There are two camps for this argument. You fall into one of them.

Sure, but I have not stated anything that relates to how I think this should be ruled, nor anything about how I play it.

I just pointed out that you were wrong in saying something was not in the rules.

/shrug

Justicar GiantKiller wrote:1. No move in the movement phase
2. Go first in the shooting phase
3. Determine which is the closest visible unit
4. Pivot toward that unit
5. Shoot all guns at that unit twice
6. Not assault in the assault phase

Easy, the closest visible unit is determined at the beginning of the movement phase. You don't iterate step 3 after step 4.

kirsanth wrote:
I just pointed out that you were wrong in saying something was not in the rules.

No, you didn't.

This is all very Monty Python.

Nurglitch is correct, you don't go backwards in the steps, you only go forwards.

Let me go ahead and go out on a limb here and provide (gasp!) real world logic.

Now, because the term "visible" and "visibility" are not explicitly defined in the BRB (and only because they're not explicitly defined) the way terms like "Disembark" and "Line of Sight" are, it's not difficult to imagine "visible" meaning "within line of sight."

If "visibility" was defined in the BRB, we'd know what it means. As it is, it is not. Therefore, we have to infer based on the idea that line of sight equals visibility, that "visible" means "in line of sight."

That, or the entire Fire Frenzy rule does exactly nothing.

Arschbombe wrote:

kirsanth wrote:
I just pointed out that you were wrong in saying something was not in the rules.

No, you didn't.

To save you the effort of scrolling up, here was what I posted initially, correcting your assertion something was not in the rules.

kirsanth wrote:

Arschbombe wrote: It doesn't say to check LOS and then pivot.

The fire frenzy rules do, however.

"At the begining of the Shooting phase it must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit"

10 goto 20
20 goto 10

Nope, not seeing anything like that in the specified order of operations.

I think he's trying to say this is starting to go around in circles.

I have to disagree, I think Kirsanth's got it nailed down.

Nuh uh.

Yup, kirsanth has given the correct reading.

I'd agree with Kirsanth's interpretation.

However, in regards to "visible": When do you determine if a unit is visible due to night fighting or harlequin cloaking?

Grakmar wrote:I'd agree with Kirsanth's interpretation.

However, in regards to "visible": When do you determine if a unit is visible due to night fighting or harlequin cloaking?

Well, it's gotta be in line of sight first.

If it's in line of sight, you roll to see how far your d00dz can see. If it's within the range determined by your roll, they can see it.

But before that happens, you have to be able to see it at all under any circumstances, and if you have no line of sight, you cannot.

Grakmar wrote:I'd agree with Kirsanth's interpretation.

However, in regards to "visible": When do you determine if a unit is visible due to night fighting or harlequin cloaking?

It doesn't interact.

A Unit protected by Nightfight/VoT/Shrouding is still "Visible" from a LoS point of view, but you will need to test to "see" them, and end up wasting your shots if you fail the roll.