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Well, I'm starting this up for a couple reasons:

I need some ideas for a potential story I want to write (probably just a mix of short stories)
And it's just fun to have these conversations

So here it is......

Imperial Guard (including Mechanicum, Titans, Skitarii, etc.) vs. ......... Armored Core (MTs, Normals, NEXTs, Ravens, etc.).

Rules:

1. Only Armored Core games from 3 and up.
2. Warhammer is in current day. No pre-Heresy or Heresy.
3. And just to end the whole "which universe are they in?" problem, Armored Core is in 40k, not the other way around.

Let the madness begin

Someone will eventually post that this is a brutal curb-stomp for the Imperium, so I'll just cut right to the chase:

The Imperium has greater industrial base and manpower.
Titans are much larger and more powerful than Armored Core's weapons.

Most importantly, the statistics on Imperial weaponry is based off hyperbole. As such, it is arbitrarily durable or powerful depending on what the author is trying to achieve. Plasma Generators on starships have ratings that can be measured in terms of sun outputs, so one might think that at even 0.001 sun output on a titan, matching that kind of output is pretty much impossible for most other universes.

Even if you discount the Imperial Navy, the IoM was able to beat down the Galactic Empire. I highly doubt that the Armored Core-verse would pose much of a threat.

You do prove a good point. However, for one thing, I said Imperial Guard, not the Navy. AC universe would lose to them no matter what since they have no navy of their own, just mechs. That point is void.

For Titan vs. AC, the average Armored Core unit is much faster than a Titan and could easily dodge a Titan attacking. Yes, a Titan could probably easily destroy an AC with one shot of a volcano cannon or whatever other weapons they have, but that's only saying if the Raven in the AC doesn't already fly circles around the Titan and out of harm's reach.

As for Imperium having more manpower and industrial base, yes, but again, Armored Core units are faster. And I highly doubt that a few lasguns will do much again their armor, or even their Primal Armor from the Kojima particles. A tank may take them down after a little while, but an AC could just fly in and use an energy sword and cut it down (ex. AC w/ energy sword vs. MT..... MT gets cut in half) then fly away.

Guardsmen vs MT = Guardsmen will probably win after a little while. MTs are basically just sentinels IMO. Guardsmen vs. Normal = they may win, they may lose. I think it depends on the Normal's speed. Guardsmen vs. NEXT = Guardsmen lose. the NEXT is too fast for them to hit, the Primal Armor would easily defend against lasguns, and their weaponry would cut them down like a knife to butter.

And before I continue, for Titan void shields, do they deflect anything that comes in contact with them or are things like tanks or guardsmen able to walk through the shield without it dropping? This isn't so that I can prove you wrong or anything (I'm pretty sure I am wrong), this is actually for the story I want to write.

Yes, the ACs are faster. And pack much less of a punch. Seriously, they can barely even damage the terrain they're fighting on half the time.

Are we talking the entirety of the Imperial Guard vs the entirety of AC (which = a steam roll win for IG) or are you talking about AC vs maybe a couple of Regiments?

And if you're throwing in Titan Legions I honestly don't see it happening. Maybe AC could work in conjunction to bring down a Warhound or two. But a legion?

The Imperium has emerged sucessful over more powerful enemies through pure dogedness in a meat grinder.

If primal armour is rated good for 50cal lazer AK-47s, how is it against 1.50 cal fully auto RPGs, or 120mm Chainguns? I expect that if Hvy bolter and autocannons in every squad, it probably would be a fair fight just with an inf regiment, especially as it seems ACs have poor AI capabilities (I mean ENERGY SWORDS?! maybe against mechs, but just random IG grist?)

If it is universe vs universe, the IoM can just chuck chimeras out of hatches in space and cover AC in enough wrecked vehicals to win. That or destroy agriculture and freeze the planet by blotting out the sun with ship's hulls, (or guardsman's bodies) whatever works. Possibly ramming ships into planets and detonating warp drives?

sniperjolly wrote:
If it is universe vs universe, the IoM can just chuck chimeras out of hatches in space and cover AC in enough wrecked vehicals to win. That or destroy agriculture and freeze the planet by blotting out the sun with ship's hulls, (or guardsman's bodies) whatever works. Possibly ramming ships into planets and detonating warp drives?

And the thing is they'd do it. ...Well Chenkov would anyway.

I'm pretty sure that any force in 40k beats down on pretty much every other universe out there due to the size difference.

Well except for certain universes which are divided by galaxies rather htan star systems.

Such as? I'm not aware of any significant ones.

That depends on how you define signifigant, but meh, I'm too lazy to look it up.

Amaya wrote:Such as? I'm not aware of any significant ones.

Dr. Who's future travels? Some of those were divided into galaxies. But I doubt they'd be able to handle the grimdarkness.

lol Dr. Who

The AC's would cut down several of the IG's tanks and their armor would stand up to basic weaponry, but as said titans are far too powerful, just look at the reaver's missile battery thing. They are probebly homing missles, and each missile is the size of an AC. good luck surviving that.

In the end the AC's would be fighting a losing battle as the sheer IG prowess eventually over powers them.

and also, any AC pilot would never guess their cockpit is actually the gun barrel of a leman russ battle tank.... CREEEEEEEED!

I very much doubt that an AC's standard equipment could take down IG tanks THAT easily. The ACU's heavy equipment they have to be still and set up to use, thus presenting an opening for them to be fired upon.

AC's have limited ammo, thus they lose to attrition. They have to have a supply base, and the IG will simply find said base and seige it. AC's with no base = dead.

For fiction, if say an IG troop transport ended up warping into the AC universe, then it is a fair fight, as the IG are also limited as they only have a single ship with limited resources. But if the AC is a single world in 40k, they better hope they get absorbed by the tau, as their other options are pretty grim dark. That, or be so far from every threat that only small scouts ever venture near them.

A standard AC would get stomped. You have to go NEXT or go bust.

Once we establish the use of NEXTs, things get a lot more fair. With the capability to go from 0 to 2000 in less than a second (and that's kind of slow... I've managed 7000km/h, although at that point, you're basically just a Kojima emitter held together with duct tape and bubblegum), and the ability to change direction just as fast, things become a lot more difficult for Imperium units. Especially when you consider that NEXTs have virtually limitless energy.

Weaponry like Assault Armour would be able to slaughter entire regiments at once. The fallout from the Kojima particles alone would probably be enough to do it, the massive explosion would just be gravy. What's better, so long as the Kojima particles are given time to recharge (it takes about a minute), a Next can never actually run out of power for Assault Armour.

Against armoured foes (assuming that the Assault Armour didn't do the job), it would be just as much of a slaughter. Even the most modest AC machine gun would likely be of similar calibur to an autocannon. Combined with the absurd speeds, an AC can reach, there'd be no way to cover the weak backside most tanks have.

Titans don't have much going for them either. Skilled LYNX are capable of taking down Arms Forts in short order, and some of those put all but the most extravagant of titans to shame (seriously, take a look at Spirit of Motherwill and The Answerer). With the right firepower (it's not hard to find when you're looking at a NEXT, a Kojima weapon, when fully charged, would probably punch a hole right through a titan), and the infinite energy and absurd acceleration that NEXTs permit, taking down a titan wouldn't be too hard, even for a single NEXT.

And then you have to consider the Arms Fort, the ACverse equivalent to the Titan. The Answerer could clear entire battlefields in seconds once its KP generator is fired up. Spirit of Motherwill is basically an Imperator Titan with a more stable firing base and more guns. Cabracan is... Cabracan. Giga Base, the weakest Arms Fort, is probably best compared to a Baneblade (and for the record, a NEXT can go through one of those in seconds).

Really, if the combat were restricted to a planetary level, I'd bet on an orginization of NEXTs and Arms Forts over the Imperium.

how bout tau empire vs mech warrior universe?

Fafnir wrote:A Even the most modest AC machine gun would likely be of similar calibur to an autocannon.

No, they'd be closer to a simple heavy stubber.

Melissia wrote:

Fafnir wrote:A Even the most modest AC machine gun would likely be of similar calibur to an autocannon.

No, they'd be closer to a simple heavy stubber.

Have you even played an AC game? Let alone one in the AC4verse? Most tanks go down to a single short burst.

Yes, which seems to indicate that they're weakly armored tanks at best.

Personally,, I preferred the original AC and ACII. Another Age was the latest I went in the series.

Dude, these aren't measly tanks from mech warrior. These are 40K TANKS. A 40k tank is much more heavily armoured, a hell of a lot more endurable, and pack a real punch with weapons STRONGER than the standard mech.

AC2 was good, but the 4verse is a completely different beast. A NEXT is to an AC as an AC is to an MT (seriously, normal ACs are the mook enemies in AC4/fa), and the weaponry's pretty much scaled to match. Remember, these are the same kind of machine guns that can punch through a Baneblade equivalent in seconds.

@Fafnir: I agree with your assessment that the regular ACs can be pretty much counted out of this battle - though not because they are food for super heavies/titans, but more so because as they are susceptible to the sheer quantity of lascannon the IG is equipped with.

Regular IG tanks of any ilk are naturally food for the NEXT and Arms Forts. While I do not think that super heavies are much of a threat to NEXT types due to their practically non-existent speed, I think that they would be a threat to slower Arms Forts, due to their titan scale weapons. I do not think that a NEXT could one-shot a super heavy, although I acknowledge any engagement solely between unsupported super heavies and NEXTs would end in IG defeat.

ARMS FORTS seem more akin to Imperial Leviathan / Capitol Imperialis class units rather than any Titan based weapon. Considering that the player is expected to kill these using a NEXT, I'm not sure how great an asset these will be... especially when facing 40k Arms Fort equivalents.

Regarding Titans, I think you are severely underestimating their defensive capabilities. As you know, Void Shielding is the 40k macguffin by which all damage is negated. The NEXTs have them horribly outmaneuvered, though I am not certain that they can damage them enough with standard weapons. Titans are likely susceptible to the heavier weapons on the Arms Forts, though I would expect an exchange between the IG super heavy squadrons /Titan Legions to go poorly for the outnumbered Arms Forts.

It all comes down to tactics, and it is here that the IG will win. All because when you least expect it, Titans will outflank you and... CREEEEEED!

Well, I'm not saying that any NEXT weapon would be able to finish a Titan. It would need something on the level of the Assault Cannon or a Kojima cannon to do something like that (and even then, it may not actually take it out in one hit... just blow a really big hole in it). Of course, the downside to both of those weapons is that they take a long ass time to charge, and leave the NEXT virtually defenseless for a short period of time. Obviously, their awkward use would definetly not make them the weapons of choice for any fight, let alone against the kind of machine that can destroy an un(primal)armoured NEXT in a single volley from its main cannons.

In the case of NEXT on titan combat, It's likely that it would be in a NEXT's best interests to maneuver into close range with the titan, where its void shields are no longer effective, and the stronger cannons can't actually reach. With overed boost and VOB, this would be very easy to do. The standard machine gun/rifle would probably be enough to target the smaller turrets on a titan, while back mounted grenade launchers would probably be the weapon of choice for doing damage to the titan's actual hull. If ammunition ever becomes a problem, there's always the good-old laser blade, which can tear through even the toughest armour like it was wet tissue paper.

As for Titans vs. Arms Forts, I'd say you have the right idea for the most part. Anything except for Spirit of Motherwill and The Answerer would end up having a lot of problem against sheer numbers. But Motherwill is armed with enough guns to make a titan green with envy, and The Answerer is just plain hax (seriously, anything within several miles of where it drops down might as well just be considered gone).

Shadows or Vorlons vs 40k = ???

For those uninformed Vorlons are esentially an entire race of C'tan (slightly weaker than the C'tan though).

Fafnir wrote:AC2 was good, but the 4verse is a completely different beast. A NEXT is to an AC as an AC is to an MT (seriously, normal ACs are the mook enemies in AC4/fa), and the weaponry's pretty much scaled to match. Remember, these are the same kind of machine guns that can punch through a Baneblade equivalent in seconds.

... except that the "baneblade equivalent" isn't.

In fact, I would go so far as to say the baneblade is at least equivalent to a NEXT as far as armor and armament goes. And the Imperium has plenty of Kojima-esque weapons.

Fafnir wrote:In the case of NEXT on titan combat, It's likely that it would be in a NEXT's best interests to maneuver into close range with the titan, where its void shields are no longer effective, and the stronger cannons can't actually reach. With overed boost and VOB, this would be very easy to do. The standard machine gun/rifle would probably be enough to target the smaller turrets on a titan, while back mounted grenade launchers would probably be the weapon of choice for doing damage to the titan's actual hull. If ammunition ever becomes a problem, there's always the good-old laser blade, which can tear through even the toughest armour like it was wet tissue paper.

You're looking at NEXT vs Titan combat as an isolated engagement. Both sides are going to have their support elements. In the case of the IG and Titan battlegroups, for every Imperator, you're probably looking at at least a dozen reavers, and for every reaver squadron, you're probably looking at a dozen warhounds, and for every warhound, you're probably looking at a few superheavies, and for every superheavy, you're looking at dozens of tanks, and hundreds of men...

A 3 NEXT squadrons of 3 assaulting a single Reaver group (also 3) is not just assaulting those Reavers - but would be engaging an entire armored battlegroup with 12 warhounds, 36 superheavies, probably 200+ tanks, and 2500-3000+ infantry with supporting elements and AFVs. I hate to say it, but I think that group could give an Arms Fort a pretty good run for its money, depending on loadouts on the Titans and Superheavies, since Volcano cannons / Turbolasers also have extreme range.

While I understand the intent to restrict this to planetary combat, I kind of wish that the OP hadn't removed the Imperial Navy completely as the lack of air support for the IoM is really glaring here.

I removed the Navy because if the Imperium had it in this conversation, they would win no matter what. I wanted the AC verse to have some kind of chance in this

Melissia wrote:

Fafnir wrote:AC2 was good, but the 4verse is a completely different beast. A NEXT is to an AC as an AC is to an MT (seriously, normal ACs are the mook enemies in AC4/fa), and the weaponry's pretty much scaled to match. Remember, these are the same kind of machine guns that can punch through a Baneblade equivalent in seconds.

... except that the "baneblade equivalent" isn't.

In fact, I would go so far as to say the baneblade is at least equivalent to a NEXT as far as armor and armament goes. And the Imperium has plenty of Kojima-esque weapons.

Except that a NEXT has much weaker armour than something like Gigabase. In fact, without primal armour and their insane speed, they'd go down about as fast as a normal.

And it's not like the ACverse is devoid of armed personnel either. Consider that with an Arms Fort, not only would there be the fort itself, but also its entire support crew, ranging from armed infantry to many squads of normals.

Also, consider that if you were to combine the resources of ORCA and The Alliance, there are about 50 LYNX, and that`s not including rogue mercenaries.