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I'm a new player (or at least I'm potentially a new player) thinking of joining a local escalation league that's starting here in Des Moines. If I do, I'll probably be running Cygnar, due solely to the fact that I like a lot of the models. I'm all about models and fluff, which often hampers my effectiveness on field, so I thought I'd run this by some of you more experienced Warmachine players.

I think Caine will be my 'caster. I like Trenchers. Is there any hope for me? They don't seem to work all that well together, but maybe there's something I'm missing.

Well, they're not the "best" when paired together, but they're far from useless. Caine can cast Snipe on them, giving them a slightly longer range. In addition, the Trenchers provide Caine with a solid unit that can hold its own against ranged attacks. Just remember, when they're dug in they won't block LoS to Caine if he's behind them.

Any idea on what armies you'll be facing? And the point values?

Minions, Cyngar, Legion, and Skorne have all been mentioned. The points values will be 15, 25, and 35.

Would I possibly be better off just including a trencher chain gun? That would sate my thirst for trencher models... Though I still really want to pick up Captain Finn.

Ahh, ok.

IMHO, take the Trenchers. They're not a terrible unit with Caine at all, and it's not like you're gimping yourself if you take them in the list. The thing is that people will suggest the ATGM and pretty much little else.

Any idea on a list yet? I'd personally include a Defender, it's a great all-around 'Jack that punishes Warbeasts and 'Jacks for getting within range of the Long Barrel.

At 15 I was thinking of Caine, a Hunter, and the Black 13th. I hadn't thought too far beyond that, though. I know I like Trenchers, I like their Solo... It is my understanding that I likely need a squire and a journeyman caster... I don't really know what else. A Defender, it sounds like! Any other tips?

run what you want, you are getting into the game for the right reasons, if you like the models your already on the right track. Caine is a good general caster and can make trenchers work for sure:

15 pts.
Lieutenant Allister Caine
Cyclone
Trencher Commandos (Leader and 5 Grunts)
Trencher Infantry (Leader and 5 Grunts)

25 pts.
Lieutenant Allister Caine
Cyclone
Stormblade Infantry (Leader and 5 Grunts)
1 Stormblade Infantry Storm Gunner
Trencher Commandos (Leader and 5 Grunts)
Trencher Infantry (Leader and 9 Grunts)

35 pts.
Lieutenant Allister Caine
Cyclone
Squire
Stormblade Infantry (Leader and 5 Grunts)
Stormblade Infantry Officer & Standard
2 Stormblade Infantry Storm Gunner
Trencher Commandos (Leader and 5 Grunts)
Trencher Infantry (Leader and 9 Grunts)
Captain Maxwell Finn
Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator

i am not a cygnar player, but im just throwing these lists out to see if they fit your urge for trenchers. the onvious trnecher choice would be siege.

So is one 'Jack alright, all the way up to 35? I was worried I'd be hamstringing myself if I didn't fit a second one in at that level. I'm glad I asked.

I did really consider Siege, he and Finn just have a neat aesthetic together. Caine is so doggone COOL though. Are the Stormblades pretty rockin'?

@ Dave. While I love your originality and I think those would be fun lists to play, probably not the best way for a new player to start. Let's face it the learning curve is pretty steep on warmachine, If someone shows up with the khador or menoth battle box the op is probably i real trouble.

Oh, I'm perfectly comfortable being handed my hat time and again, as long as the list is halfway fun to play and the battlefield is full of shiny, fluffy models.

That said, I'm loving all of the input. I was thinking Hunter because I heard that Caine was pretty decent at anti-infantry himself. Trenchers I was just liking for the models, honestly. Like I said, I could probably also sate that need by including trencher weapon teams.

Rangers sort of intrigue me, as do gun mages (and both seem like a natural fit with Caine, fluff-wise).

Shane wrote:Oh, I'm perfectly comfortable being handed my hat time and again, as long as the list is halfway fun to play and the battlefield is full of shiny, fluffy models.

Well you are probably good to go then.

In all seriousness though the lists Dave posted should tear up infantry pretty easily, warjacks however are probably going to be a problem.

if your just looking for a more general list, i would definatly throw a hunter in there. while i like the cyclone, i think a heavy hitter is a better choice, and while Caine doesnt really give anything to a jack, a beatstick up close is always good.

my thoughts hinge on how far you wanna hang onto the trencher theme, you could run something like this and have a bit more flexibility.

Lieutenant Allister Caine
Hunter
Squire
Stormblade Infantry (Leader and 5 Grunts)
Stormblade Infantry Officer & Standard
Stormclad
2 Stormblade Infantry Storm Gunner
Trencher Chaingun Crew
Trencher Commandos (Leader and 9 Grunts)
Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator

here you have the hunter to crack armor at range. from a peanut gallery point of view i always look at the stormblades for effect POW 15, which is damn good in CC, something cygnar really needs. the stormclad can be marshalled like i have it or caine can take it, but it gets a free focus when near the stormblades so you have effective one plus a charge from the marshal. the chaingun can help with infantry clearing plus the suppressing fire template can clog charge lanes, trencher commandos can be swapped for trenchers if you like them more, and reinholt/squire is in most if not all cygnar lists.

Ok. So at the 15 point level, are there any problems with:

Lt. Caine
Hunter
Black 13th Gun Mage Strike Team

?

Also, in trying to do some forward planning, do I need to have a Heavy 'jack at 35 points? Am I hamstringing myself if I don't take one?

I prefer the Defender to the Hunter. The Defender hits as well against a heavy jack past armor 18, is more accurate against most targets, has better armor / more damage boxes, and a real melee weapon for when things hit the circular cooling units. If you are running pCaine as opposed to epic Caine, I would also consider a Lancer for him. pCaine does have a couple spells that are nice through an arc node.

At 35, I think that you are going to have a hard time of it without a heavy.

Blast. I was starting to form a plan, too. It went like this:

15 pts:
Lt. Caine
-Hunter
Black 13th
Trenchers
Trencher Chain Gun
Squire

At 25 pts, add:
Rangers
Stormblade Infantry

At 35 pts, add:
Charger
Captain Finn
Journeyman Warcaster


So. I could swap out the Hunter for a Defender, and drop... The Black 13th? But I love those models. Maybe the chain gun and squire? But I hear Caine really loves his squire. Suggestions, anyone?

My 2 cents: I'm biased against the trenchers as I feel that the ATGM do so much more for the same points due to their very useful alternate fire modes. IMHO, thunderbolt is one of the best special attacks in the game. AND if you use Caine's tier list, they are less points, with free officer if you take 2!!!

15 points:

Caine
Stormclad
ATGM + Officer
ATGM

- Plays to Caine's strengths, with a Stomclad to provide some melee tie-up and beats against enemy heavies. This list, despite being down one point, is effectively +3 right now due to discounted ATGM and free officer from his Tier 2. Caine doesn't fear infantry and the 'Clad provides good charge blocking on the turn he feats and runs. I think this is a very tough 15 point list.

25 points (effective 28):

Caine
Stormclad
ATGM + Officer + Stormclad
ATGM

While it seems silly to give the Dude a stormclad, the Dude's rune shot can give the 'clad some extra range on his Generator blade, and also helps patch Caine's biggest tier weakness - the lack of punch vs enemy heavies. He also has reach and can tie up a quantity of enemy melee troops. I wouldn't give the Dude two though.

You can use Deadeye on your ATGM can shove your 'Clad out of combat using thunderbolts. If I recall correctly, as its out of activation movement, it doesn't draw a free strike.

35 points:

Caine
Stormclad
Lancer
ATGM + Officer + Stormclad
ATGM
Black 13th

Someone will have to tell me if this qualifies for his T4. Can't trust the armybuilders. About the Lancer over the Hunter. Its more to use reach and ARM18 to tie down stuff that might threaten Caine rather than the arc-node. I really have little use for the Hunter as I find him too focus intensive for Caine and generally useless if your opponent is light on large/med base models.

Ah. I need to pick up the faction book so I can look at the themed lists for Caine - right now I just have the basic book, so I have no idea how to meet the themes or what benefits they provide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, how about this?

15 pts.
Lt. Caine
- Defender
Trencher Infantry
Captain Finn
Squire

At 25, add:
Rangers
Stormblade Infantry

At 35, add:
Charger
Journeyman Warcaster
Stormblade UA

It doesn't get me the Black 13th I was wanting, but I suppose that would be alright if it's a much better list. Could the list perhaps benefit from (or come out about even by) dropping either the Rangers or the Stormblades in favor of the Black 13th?

I would drop the trencher infantry for the B13 and the stormblades for AGTM's to be honest. Rangers are huge with either Caine. I know that you like them, but they honestly don't fit Caine that well. Same goes for the stormblades. The AGTM's are just that good at about everything and the UA for the AGTM (also known as the Dude) is arguably the best jack marshal in the game. The UA for the stormblades really only give them assault since you don't have a Stormclad in there for them to feed.

I really want to build an army around Caine and the Trenchers. Within that context, is there any advice you can give me? I understand it won't be the optimal list, and I'm relived to hear that the Stormblades aren't all that necessary. I'm happy to drop them for AGTMs and 'the Dude,' whom I am now in love with, having heard that nickname. I'd really also like to get the Black 13th in there, given that they're such awesome models and seem like they have good utility, but really nothing but Caine and the Trenchers are a must. I could switch out 'Jacks, trade off other units, maybe even switch Caines.

The hunter is a must have at lower point levels, It hits just as hard if not harder against medium to high defence jacks as the defender, and it gives you 3 more points for other models.

Defender is POW15, against a khador heavy, it is rolling Dice - 5

Hunter is POW 6 Armor piercing, Against a khador heavy, it is rolling dice - 4. The hunter has the extended control range which is very useful for caine, since he is extremely mobile, and most of your army wont keep pace with him at all.

Personally, I like your idea of the trenchers, They can set up a block of gunfire in the center while caine jumps around the battlefield with his hunter on the flanks. It is a neat idea. I wouldnt take the chaingun expecially if you are taking the B13. Caine is the epitome of infantry slaying, I have seen his feat gun down entire armies. I would just be worried about fast melee, and heavies.

Seems like you need more heavy hitting units. Maybe a grenadier with the trenchers? I hear he can be really good with them. You will have to play test it alot to get a feel for the combination of what you want/what you need to be competitive.

What if at 15 I do:

Lt. Caine
-Hunter
Grenadier
Trencher Infantry

That leaves me with points for either a Journeyman (which is probably what I ought to lean toward), or Captain Finn for a bit of melee protection. Then at 25 I would add ATGM with the Dude and a Squire, and at 35... Rangers and... Something? Maybe swap something out for a Heavy 'jack? I hate painting something and then not including it in my final 35 point list, but it's starting to look like that's where this is going.

people are going to tell you the gun mages are almost required in a cygnar list, and while they are VERY GOOD, they are not required. at the end of the day run what you want to run. if your not particular to which Caine you run then eCaine loves the gunmages more with elite cadre, making them a ballsy combat unit thanks for gunfighter.

Ok! Thanks for all the help, everyone. I feel like I'm getting somewhere now.

What about:

eCaine
-Grenadier
Trenchers
ATGM and the Dude

Then at 25 I add:

Rangers
Finn
Squire
(or maybe a Journeyman instead of Finn, or even Arlen, or something - with Gunslinger I'm not sure I need Finn's melee, no matter how much I love his model.)

Then at 35:

Defender
Reinholdt or a Trencher Grenadier

The big problem I see with your 15 and 25 point lists is you are going to have a really hard time vs any heavy warkjacks. You will have to screen your stuff with smoke and use the atgm to push models around so you can set up assasination runs. While this is probably going to be a fairly viable tactic it will be boring to play with and your opponents aren't going to enjoy it much either.

whitekong wrote:The big problem I see with your 15 and 25 point lists is you are going to have a really hard time vs any heavy warkjacks. You will have to screen your stuff with smoke and use the atgm to push models around so you can set up assasination runs. While this is probably going to be a fairly viable tactic it will be boring to play with and your opponents aren't going to enjoy it much either.

Why would he have a really hard time vs Heavies? Caine still has thunder stirke, at range 12. Slam a heavy away every turn and ignore it while you take care of the rest of the list!

If I were going to build a list around Caine and Trenchers, I would want to base it on mobile firepower. Caine already play the stick and run game quite well with teleport, so you might as well roll with the theme.

Lt. Caine (6 jack points)
^Hunter (6)
The hunter conveniently uses all of Caine's jack points and has a nice punch against the med and large base models that the rest of the list may have a problem with. Its rat of 7 means that you can safely allocate only 1 focus to it and still hit what you're gunning for.

^Squire (2)
The squire provides an extra focus for most of the game as well as allowing rerolls on magic attacks. Since you'll likely want to teleport after casting thunder strike, the free reroll from the squire provides a nice way to minimize risk.

6x Trencher infantry 6
^Officer & sniper 3
Hey, its the theme -- there should be no questions about the trenchers at this point. The Trenchers will receive snipe and likely dead eye when they are shooting high def models. With range 14 and pow 11, trenchers should get the first volley off on most enemy infantry and will likely hit if they have dead eye on them, and pow 11 will reliably kill arm 17 and lower single wound models. With the officer and sniper, you can cautious advance every round, completely protecting yourself from annoying AoEs like Khador Mortars. It won't protect you from everything with an aoe (namely, AoEs that have a continuous effect) but it should cover most everything you'll see. The unit can also throw out a P+S 19 CRA every round which will really help against armor, and they have smoke bombs which can protect caine in a pinch with teleport (Caine is quite squishy after all).

The Black 13th 4
The black 13th were something you expressed interest in, and they are very versatile. If something single wound runs to engage the trenchers, you can use black penny shots to free up up the trenchers. If something has stealth that you really want to kill, you can use Fire Beacon to give you the ability to shoot it. If there is something incorperal around, you have some magic guns to shoot it down.

With this list, you should be moving every round. Cautious advance, dig in, CRA / shoot. Hunter moves & shoots something big (jack or beast), Caine moves, shoots, and teleports. Prioritize targets -- shoot the fast moving stuff first, save the slow heavy jacks and beasts without reach for last -- if they get too close just thunder strike them d6" away. When you get around to killing it, a heavy should die pretty quickly to concentrated fire from a Hunter, CRA'd trenchers, & Caine himself.

At 25 points, we use the same base as before:

Lt. Caine
^Hunter
^Squire
6x Trenchers
^Officer and Sniper
Black 13th

And add:

Captain Maxwell Finn (3)
Finn will make the Trenchers deadly accurate and extend their threat range to 24" on an assault. Trenchers are still for anti infantry work, but they are really pretty solid with an assault charge and a follow up melee attack with Finn around. Finn also make sure the trenchers don't run away with CMD 10, and he can be pretty dodgy himself by charging some infantry killing them with Anatomical Percision, and then running away with Sprint.

Storm Blades (5)
Storm Blades are really solid with killing medium to hard armored targets, which you might see more of at 25 points than you can just slam away with Thunder Strike. If you're not a fan of the models, they can be replaced by Precursors, but that will set you back 7 points as you'll want the Precursor UA to really up the damage potential. The trenchers also mesh nicely with the Storm Blades as you can screen the Storm Blade's advance with smoke bombs, as Storm Blades tend to get chewed up by most ranged attacks as they are easy to hit and arm 15 doesn't really help much against Pow 10+ ranged attacks.

2x Trencher Infantry Rifle Grenadiers OR a Trencher chain gun (2)
The Trencher Grenadiers will buff the unit size of the trenchers which gives you a better Pow on your CRAs (pow 20 now) and it gives you a pair of AoEs to play with on your own. Always expand a Trencher unit with the Grenadiers before spending the points on the full unit, as either option costs 1 point, but the Grenadiers give you AoEs .

The Trencher Chain Gun gives you extra short ranged firepower and some board control with covering fire, and is a pretty cool model. Since you already have plenty of infantry hate in the list, I'd lean toward the Greandiers, but covering fire is mighty handy when you start getting lots of it in a list. I mainly include the Chain Gun as an option as you mentioned it earlier.

This list will play in a similar fashion to the 15 point version, but you have a nice add in with the Storm Blades. If your opponent is running something that is hard to kill (Khador Man-o-Wars, a Pair of Heavies, whatever) you can use the trenchers to screen the storm blades and deliver them intact to the enemy. If your opponent is running infantry heavy, you can hit and run with the Trenchers and Caine while using the Storm Blades as a counter charge Deterrent.

35 points would expand on the 25 point list:
Lt Caine
^Hunter
^Squire
6x Trenchers
^Officer and Sniper
^2x Trencher Infantry Rifle Grenadiers
Black 13th
6x Storm Blades
Maxwell Finn

Adding:
Lady Aiyana and Master Holt (4)
At 35 points, your probably going to want a damage buff -- not only does Aiyana have a spell that will add +2 to your damage rolls against a target, Holt has a pair of hand cannons, which happen to mesh VERY nicely with the theme of the rest of the list (run and gun).

Stormblade Infantry Officer & Standard Bearer (3) OR a Journeyman Warcaster (3)
The Storm Blade Officer and Standard add assault to the unit and AoE 3s to the Storm Blade Weapons. Assault gives the short ranged Storm Blade Ranged attacks a much more reasonable threat range (14" if within 5" of the leader). Given that you can also drop snipe and dead eye on the storm blades, they can suddenly become a a range assassination threat with their Pow 14 ranged attacks, especially if mixed with Storm Gunners (see below). Again, this option appeals as it increases the theme of run and gun while also adding more melee kick with a good P+S.

The Journeyman Warcaster adds one thing to a list -- Arcane Shield. He is going to spend the rest of the game either hiding or sniping enemy models with his hand cannon with boosted ranged attack and damage rolls. The Arcane shield is handy on trenchers, but its an upkeep and you're probably going to be using snipe on the Trenchers. It will protect low Arm Models from AoEs (like the Black 13th) or you can drop it on Caine to protect him from assassination if trencher smoke isn't doing it. Below I mention adding Ol' Rowdy -- thats where I would use the Arcane Shield. AS on Rowdy will push him to a might Arm 23 which will let him brawl with just about any combination of a pair of enemy heavies and come out on top.

3x Storm Gunners OR replace the Hunter with Ol' Rowdy (3 net points to the list either way)
The Storm Gunners offer one really, really Awesome ability to the unit of storm Blades.-- if you hit your target with a Storm Gunner, additional shots from the unit will automatically hit the target. When mixed with Snipe, Assault, and Dead Eye, you'll likely land one hit out of 3 on Def 17 or less. Not many casters can withstand 6+ Pow 14 damage rolls, and when you don't have to roll to hit you'll squish what you're shooting at pretty quick. A mega unit of Storm Blades works closely with Trenchers, as the trenchers will be what delivers them to their target via smoke bombs and suicide assaults to knock out enemy support pieces. Hey, no one ever said the job of a trencher is glorious, eh?

Ol' Rowdy on the other hand is probably the Best Cygnar heavy jack. He can charge without spending a focus (allowing him essentially 4 attacks with his main weapon), can Counter charge enemy models that get too close, can knock down enemy models with def 18 or less pretty reliably, and did I mention his main weapon is P+S 18? If thats not enough, his base arm is higher than an Iron Clad and he has a buckler, pushing him to a very solid Arm 20. If you throw an Arcane Shield on Rowdy, even a might Juggernaught will not be able to finish him off in a single round of combat, and Arm 23 shrugs off most infantry attacks with ease. In a list that lacks a durable model, Rowdy with Arcane Shield can create an Anchor in your lines. Be careful though, as Rowdy can suddenly become the target of all of your opponents anti armor weapons as he is the best target in the list.

Personally, I'd go with the big stormblade unit in the final list, but Ol' Rowdy is just plain fun, and its hard to go wrong with fun, right?

Final list:
Lt Caine
^Hunter
^Squire
6x Trenchers
^Officer and Sniper
^2x Trencher Infantry Rifle Grenadiers
Black 13th
6x Storm Blades
^Officer and Standard Bearer
^3x Storm Gunners
Lady Aiyana and Master Holt
Maxwell Finn

The final 35 point list becomes an ultra versatile list. If your opponent spams lots of infantry, Caine's feat mixed with trencher ranged attacks will eat them alive. If he brings lots of armor, you can protect your hard hitting storm blades with Trencher Smoke and slam away models as necessary with Caine himself. If your opponent has a way of negating melee attacks (like the legion caster Saeryn) almost everything in the list has a gun to fall back on. If your opponent can negate ranged attacks, you can still melee it up with long range trencher charges followed by a hard hitting wave of storm blades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not sure what the character limit is, so I'm adding this in another post.

The nice thing about the lists posted above is the fact that you can slot in both Siege and either regular or epic Stryker without really hampering the lists effectiveness either way. With Siege I might make a slight adjustment of adding a pair of Chargers in place of the Hunter (and freeing up 2 points somewhere, likely the squire or Aiyana and Holt).

With normal Stryker I might trade out the Hunter for a Lancer and try to squeeze old Rowdy in, probably by trimming Finn, Aiyana and Holt and a pair of Storm Gunners.

With Epic Stryker, I'd probably swap out the hunter and finn for a Cyclone to protect your trenchers.

The base list without Caine is just very versatile in the realm of what Cygnar can do. Pick up a unit of Gun Mages with the UA and you'd have a very solid core to play with based on your mood.

Has anyone used the grenadier at all? He looks like an awesome model, and he seems to be super effective if you run trenchers. 5 pts and you get 3 pow 12 aoe 3 grenades every round without spending focus? Thats about as efficient as you can get I think.

Here an interesting idea, jack marshal a grenadier with the ATGM officer, but have it sitting with your trenchers. It will be dug in, becoming DEF 18/ARM 15. It will also get three grenade shots at rng 14 AOE3 POW12, from the ATGM Officer. When the enemy gets closer, give it thunderbolt. It says each model hit are knocked back, so you now have an aoe3 POW 12, that causes knockback to everything hit. Then add the extra shots, you are looking at three 3inch aoe knockback attacks...while putting zero focus on it. Seems great for Caine, since he really needs to keep all of his focus on himself.

Wow. Thanks, Endgame! That's what I call comprehensive! I was having a really hard time shuffling things around, today I went and bought some stuff for a list I wasn't wild about and thought I was going to have to settle for picking up the Trenchers last. I think I might go exchange some of it, and go with this exact list! I was worried I wouldn't be any good at 35 without a second 'jack, but your writeup inspires confidence in the one 'jack force.

Back to the flgs for me, I think!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
KingKodo, if that works it seems brilliant. Again, this doesn't come from any experience on the board, but I like the idea of sort of "layering" units like that too, with the ATGM being able to shoot over the dug in trenchers. Then when the enemy gets too close, the trenchers (possibly supported by Finn) can absorb the melee and leave the ATGM free to keep on pouring the lead in. Right? That was my theory, anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blast. Re-reading, it looks like the math might be off by one. I think Trencher Commandos are six points, and Trencher Infantry are seven. I'm thinking that means at 15 points, I hold off on the squire and bring one Trencher Rifle Grenadier, then at 25 I add Finn, the Stormblades, and the Squire (and leave it at one Grenadier total). Does that sound about right?

Both the trencher commandos are six and the standard trencher infantry are six, according to the MK2 cygnar book.

KingKodo wrote:Has anyone used the grenadier at all? He looks like an awesome model, and he seems to be super effective if you run trenchers. 5 pts and you get 3 pow 12 aoe 3 grenades every round without spending focus? Thats about as efficient as you can get I think.

Here an interesting idea, jack marshal a grenadier with the ATGM officer, but have it sitting with your trenchers. It will be dug in, becoming DEF 18/ARM 15. It will also get three grenade shots at rng 14 AOE3 POW12, from the ATGM Officer. When the enemy gets closer, give it thunderbolt. It says each model hit are knocked back, so you now have an aoe3 POW 12, that causes knockback to everything hit. Then add the extra shots, you are looking at three 3inch aoe knockback attacks...while putting zero focus on it. Seems great for Caine, since he really needs to keep all of his focus on himself.

That's actually a pretty cool idea, although I'd throw a Master Gunner in there as well: 3 RAT 10 grenades sailing into the enemy can ruin someone's day rather quickly. ^.^

KingKodo wrote:Both the trencher commandos are six and the standard trencher infantry are six, according to the MK2 cygnar book.

Fantastic! I have the card set, but I was lazily relying on the Gizmo site for my numbers. So, back up to two rifle grenadiers! I think I'll probably try that Grenadier idea too, once the escalation league is over. I'll probably try it with... I dunno, maybe Siege? He and Finn working together seems too cool to pass up - the models just have the perfect aesthetic for one another.

You should use www.forwardkommander.com

Online army list and collection tool. Works great.

You still need cards for stats, and books for Tier list bonuses.