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In the codex Abaddon has the effects of all chaos marks and a deamon weapon

So wouldn't his deamon weapon be like:
Drach'nyen= Blissgiver+ Plaguebringer+ Bloodfeeder+ Deathscreamer+ usual Abbadon bonuses?

No it wouldn't, as it doesn't say that in the codex.

Besides, don't you think Abbadon is tough enough???

Abbadon Doesn't have a usual mark, he has the mark of chaos ascendant, which is not listed in the demon weapon entry, so no other benefit is confered other than double strength and +d6 attacks.

As above, Abaddon doesn't have the other marks of chaos. It's beside the fact really, as what his Daemon Weapon does is clearly stated. If it was not a normal Daemon weapon it would not confer +D6 attacks and +1 (or in this case, double) strength.

while I do agree that abbadon SHOULD NOT gain all the abilities via his daemon weapon and his MoCA, the rules as written answer is a bit more foggy.

While MoCA seems unique in its "not being the other marks" if you read the enter rule, it goes back to the "Unit of Units" wherein this is a "Mark of Marks" (as they specifically mention that he does in fact HAVE a Mark of Tzeentch and that the other 3 marks are already included in his profile)

My reasoning for why he does not gain all the abilities of a standard daemon weapon *page 93 of c: CSM

Is that a standard daemon weapon (one that would turn into blissgiver etc) "Requires two hands to wield". Abbadon cannot wield it with two hands thanks to the Talon of Horus, so he can only use the abilities of his Daemon-Sword, which is highlighted in his profile.

hope that helps
~DAR

Edit: I find it rather ominous that this would be my 666th post...

The issue isn't whether he gets the bonuses for having the marks, the mark of chaos ascendant is the special rule, not Mark of Tzeentch, which is why it isn't a deathscreamer, etc.

He isnt a Chaos lord iwth the Mark of Tzeentch, or Khorne etc - so he doesnt gain the bonuses of either. In addition it specifically states it counts as a daemon weapon with +D6 attacks; if he had the benefits of Khorne he would have +2D6 attacks.

Strictly Typhus isnt a chaos lord with MoN, so wouldnt, prior the FAQ, get the Poison weapon rule.

But if abaddon were to attack a chicken, wouldnt it try its dammed hardest to fly away?

But no in all seriousness hed be having chicken dinner

Nah he doesnt get the bonuses, if he did hed be like 350 points.. well maybe not that far but meh, about that 2H comment... if he truly is the chosen of chosen he could carry a 2H in 1H

Ordo Dakka wrote:The issue isn't whether he gets the bonuses for having the marks, the mark of chaos ascendant is the special rule, not Mark of Tzeentch, which is why it isn't a deathscreamer, etc.

Mark of Chaos Ascendant IS all of the marks, which is why, (at least, I have ALWAYS seen it ruled this way) abbadon's kills count towards "Epidemus's Tally of Pestilence" as MoCA makes him count as having Mark of Nurgle.


He doesn't get the weapon abilities as he has a Daemon-Sword *which functions similarly(but not in regards to caring about which marks he has) to a daemon weapon, but has its own rules in his entry, thus his being a 1 handed daemon weapon, when the profile for Daemon-Weapons SPECIFICALLY states that it "Requires Two Hands to Use"

Just to clarify, there seems to be no disagreement on the "Ends" just the "Means to that End".

~DAR

Mark of Chaos Ascendant ISN'T all the marks.

In game terms he has his own unique mark, which happens to give the same benefits as all the "base" marks + a little more.

He also DOES have a daemon weapon, it tells you that Drachnyen and the Talon together count as a unique daemon weapon.

Regwon wrote:Abbadon Doesn't have a usual mark, he has the mark of chaos ascendant, which is not listed in the demon weapon entry, so no other benefit is confered other than double strength and +d6 attacks.

No but his mark has all the effects and it still is a deamon weapon and it acts like a deamon weapon.

I see this question similiar to Snikrot's Ambush rule + IC question.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:He also DOES have a daemon weapon, it tells you that Drachnyen and the Talon together count as a unique daemon weapon.

Like powerfist is a unique power weapon.

illuknisaa wrote:

No but his mark has all the effects and it still is a deamon weapon and it acts like a deamon weapon.

Yes, his mark has the same effects, but it isn't the same thing.
Is Mark of Chaos Acendant the same as Mark of Slaanesh: NO
Is Mark of Chaos Acendant the same as Mark of Khorne: NO
Is Mark of Chaos Acendant the same as Mark of Tzeentch: NO
Is Mark of Chaos Acendant the same as Mark of Nurlge: NO

Mark of Chaos Acendant is none of these marks and give no special thing with a daemon weapon.

It's not even on the same page as Snikrot + IC.

illuknisaa - nope, really isnt the same thing at all.
Powerfists arent unique power weapons, as they are common to a number of armies. Or do you not know wht "unique" means??

Is it just me, or doesn't the MoCA state that "the other marks (other than Mark of Tzeench) are included in his profile" therefore any debate of whether the marks affect him in excess of what is explicitly stated in MoCA is moot. Oh, and the rules state he's melded the marks into MoCA. It's no more a Mark of Nurgle than a rod made from brass is a copper rod.

~Sigh~

I feel bad for you people, if you aren't already married, I'm sure you probably think that when you get married, as you and your proposed spouse would "combine from two to form one" you would no longer exist, and neither would her, but some abomination"hodge-podge" of a human as they two of you have "Joined"...

Combined/Joined etc in no way implies that the original values are lost...

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Combined/Joined etc in no way implies that the original values are lost...

It also does not imply the original value can be used.

You are not "single" when two single people get married, to use your example.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:~Sigh~

I feel bad for you people, if you aren't already married, I'm sure you probably think that when you get married, as you and your proposed spouse would "combine from two to form one" you would no longer exist, and neither would her, but some abomination"hodge-podge" of a human as they two of you have "Joined"...

Combined/Joined etc in no way implies that the original values are lost...

I think you'll find that marrying is becoming a couple, not melding together to form one entity. Abaddon's mark isn't all marks of chaos sitting pretty in a neat circle on his chest, they're melded together to form a new mark. I'd be very worried if marrying is described as a process by which two people are "melded" together making a new person.
Besides, I'm not Christian so I don't have to worry about what a preacher says to a Christian couple. (Or, in Warhammer terms; I don't play Warhammer Fantasy, so I don't have to worry about what the Warhammer Fantasy rules say about spells when I use psychic powers)

In this case, combined strictly states that the original values are are already included in the character's profile. Therefore, any considerations whether the character has Mark of Nurgle is relieved, all the effects thereof are already included in the profile and any special rules resulting because of it is also already included in his profile. We no longer have to worry about if he's got a Mark of Nurgle, since it's all in the profile.

kirsanth wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Combined/Joined etc in no way implies that the original values are lost...

It also does not imply the original value can be used.

You are not "single" when two single people get married, to use your example.

Your marital value is no longer single, but you are still a "Single" human being. Unless your spouse decides to legally change their name, you both maintain your original names, any other attributes that would be attributed to the individuals (such as debts, criminal charges, etc) are still kept by the individuals.

So when Mark of Tzeentch, Mark of Nurgle, Mark of Khorne, and Mark of Slaanesh decide to partake in the poligimy of "Mark of Chaos Ascendent" then they still maintain their original qualities (and as the rule states, their individual bonuses are included in Abbadon's profile) so

The mark of tzeentch increases the invulnerable save provided by his (terminator) armor to 4+ (from 5+).

The mark of Nurgle makes his toughness a modified "5" (and counts him as a model with mark of nurgle for Tally of Pestilence)

The mark of Khorne makes his base attacks 4

And the Mark of Slaanesh makes his initiative "6".

None of them effect his "One handed 'Special Daemon weapon" in the way they would a normal "Daemon Weapon" as the requirements for those types of daemon weapons (Unmarked, Deathscreamer, Blissigiver, Plagueringer. and bloodfeeder) state they "Require Two hands two use" and Abbadon's daemon weapon is One Handed.

So Abbadon actually has the following attack characteristics

3 (base) + 1 (Mark of Khorne) 4 +0 for two different special close combat weapons + D6 Attacks (including a roll of 1, as nothing in his entry specifies otherwise) + 1 attack if he is charging.

One major question I have always had about Abbadon however, is does he have the ability to reroll ANY failed to Wound RollS or any ONE failed to wound roll (as it seems his entry states he can only reroll a single failed roll)

In addition he isnt a Chaos Lord. So would never gain any benefits even if the marks were seperate, RAW.

nosferatu1001 wrote:In addition he isnt a Chaos Lord. So would never gain any benefits even if the marks were seperate, RAW.

Tally of pestilence does not require you to be a chaos lord, it merely requires you be a model with the mark.

unless you are solely referring to the "daemon-weapon" thing, which, at this point in time, you are 100% correct. (Apoc formations allow Abbadon to take the place of most of the "Chaos Lord" unit requirements of them, but this isn't apoc, until FAQed otherwise, he is not technically a Chaos Lord.)

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
So when Mark of Tzeentch, Mark of Nurgle, Mark of Khorne, and Mark of Slaanesh decide to partake in the poligimy of "Mark of Chaos Ascendent" then they still maintain their original qualities (and as the rule states, their individual bonuses are included in Abbadon's profile)

Regardless of the (rather unrelated) examples of why you think 1+ 1 = 1 and 2 both, the rules do state the effects are given, but the mark is NOT all 4 marks. It is "a unique Mark that combines all of the gifts".

Yes DAR, he isnt a Chaos Lord, and he alos doersnt have the MoN. He has MoCA, not MoN.

All I am saying, is that every judge I have ever ran into has ruled that Abbadon counts as a "Follower of Nurgle" (as his MoCA includes the Mark of Nurgle) in terms of Epidemus's special rule.

I tried the same defense as I felt it was BS that MY abbadon was buffing HIS epidemus(And practically his entire army), and I provided the same justification of

"MoCA is not MoN" but the judge's defense, which I now agree with, was based on the fact that the MoCA rule specifically mentions that MoT is still present, and so are the other marks, that are included in his profile... it ended up working out kinda well for me (as it made my twin-linked bolter ignore armor saves, and as such, ignore his feel-no-pain) but in the long run, his 3+ FNPs, All wounding on 2+ poisoned, ignoring armor saves was really annoying, especially as he gained it from me wiping out a unit of Plague Bearers with abbadon on top of his like 3ish kills (I got hit by Necrotic missiles due to a serious of unfortunate scatters and him FAILING his daemonic assault roll ((Kugath and epidemus were supposed to be in the SECOND wave))...

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:All I am saying, is that every judge I have ever ran into has ruled. . .

I had a judge say that spods count as rammed when Tank Shocked.

Still trying to figure that one out.

Look in the profile: is MoN present? No. Just something that states it counts as something that is a combination of them all.

The judge was wrong. I have never seen it rules that way at GT-level tournaments (athough that is mainly through people not taking failbbadon more than anything)

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:~Sigh~

I feel bad for you people, if you aren't already married, I'm sure you probably think that when you get married, as you and your proposed spouse would "combine from two to form one" you would no longer exist, and neither would her, but some abomination"hodge-podge" of a human as they two of you have "Joined"...

Combined/Joined etc in no way implies that the original values are lost...

Are you serious? I mean..I am flabbergasted. This is so obviously an abuse of the thread to try to argue the exact same point you were arguing in the closed thread on GK's.

I don't care if you were right or wrong, stop trying to reopen this debate in another thread using a slightly different example as a proxy for the GK argument.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:<snip> (and counts him as a model with mark of nurgle for Tally of Pestilence)<snip>

Where is Tally of Pestilence in his character profile? MoCA explicitly states that all effects apart from Mark of Tzeench effect is strictly already added in his profile.

Mahtamori wrote:Where is Tally of Pestilence in his character profile? MoCA explicitly states that all effects apart from Mark of Tzeench effect is strictly already added in his profile.

From that perspective I guess I was cheated then! Drat!

it does say "The other effects are included" as opposed to "The Other Marks are included" as the latter was the defense of the judge, it does not hold to be true! Also, as the MARK combines the other GIFTS and the Tally is searching for a "Mark of Nurgle" not a "Gift of +1 Modified T" he does not gain the benefit (same applies to daemon weapons, if not for all the other existing reasons to prevent it from working.)

Abbadon lives to see another apoc game!

He gets the effects of the marks as stated on P.25, he doesn't have the marks. It aint that hard to understand.