Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I had an interesting debate with a fellow gamer during a game against his Necrons the other day. His Monolith turned up via deep strike during his turn and was then assaulted in my turn by my assault squad with a Librarian and his Strength 10 Sword of Sanguinius.
We were both trying to work out what I would need to hit the Monolith in close combat. It technically has moved but at what speed. We settled on a 4+ in the end but there isnt really a clarification in the rulebook about it.

Cheers

Although a monolith can only move in the movement phase at combat speed, deepstriking vehicles count as moving at cruising speed (pg 95, BGB) and as such you need 6+.

that is an interesting issue, and i guess Hallowed Da'Credo just solved it

excellent. Thanks for the clarification. Was struggling to find it in the book. Guess I was looking in the wrong bit.

Deathbysoup wrote:excellent. Thanks for the clarification. Was struggling to find it in the book. Guess I was looking in the wrong bit.

Yup.

Remember that he cannot fire the Flux arc or the Particle whip when he Deepstrikes either!

Gwar! wrote:

Deathbysoup wrote:excellent. Thanks for the clarification. Was struggling to find it in the book. Guess I was looking in the wrong bit.

Yup.

Remember that he cannot fire the Flux arc or the Particle whip when he Deepstrikes either!

<devils advocate>

Can't they?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4PaGAnQ4Dk



</devils advocate>

(yes it's PURE speculation and sheer cheapness.... )

References to Darrel from Beasts of War in a rules discussion is of......limited.....value.

Steelmage99 wrote:References to Darrel from Beasts of War in a rules discussion is of......limited.....value.

Hey now, I never said I agreed with what he said, just playing the devils advocate

That is not playing devil's advocate. That is playing slowed monkey on acid advocate.

Brother Ramses wrote:That is not playing devil's advocate. That is playing slowed monkey on acid advocate.

I suppose that video belongs in the RAW thread lol, but yes, I wouldnt allow it, nor try it at the table with friends.

It is still a debatable topic and many people are split between whether you can or can't fire the whip when deep striking the lith. I've noticed gwar and nos making sure to point it out in every thread on the subject though. Regardless, it will be fixed in the new codex at some point and (hopefully) there will be no more questions on the issue.

Kevin949 wrote:I've noticed gwar and nos making sure to point it out in every thread on the subject though.

I too have noticed them post the rules on the subject regularly.

kirsanth wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:I've noticed gwar and nos making sure to point it out in every thread on the subject though.

I too have noticed them post the rules on the subject regularly.

Goodness, Posting the roolz? How unpossible!!

Posting your interpretation of the rule which holds just as much weight as anyone elses around here. Regardless, don't have a problem with you posting about rules but going out of your way to add in a bit about something that no one asked about is different. *shrug*

Hallowed_Da'Credo wrote:Although a monolith can only move in the movement phase at combat speed, deepstriking vehicles count as moving at cruising speed (pg 95, BGB) and as such you need 6+.

Please also note that, at this point your game board should implode as monoliths can move a max of 6" well cruising speed is a min of 6.0000000000... well you get the point..

Draggoon wrote:Please also note that, at this point your game board should implode as monoliths can move a max of 6" well cruising speed is a min of 6.0000000000... well you get the point..

There is no problem here. A special rule is allowing it to count as having moved faster, despite no actual measurable distance being travelled.

Count as /= actually has

In addition: ignoring the way the rules are constructed (specific > general) is the only way to allow monoliths to deepstrike and fire their Ordnance weapon. This of course leads to far larger problems....

I don't see why the whip cannot be fired when the mono moves...

Phototoxin wrote:I don't see why the whip cannot be fired when the mono moves...

The Whip Can be fired when the Mono Moves. Woop De Do! Huzzah! Jam!

The Whip can't be fired when the Mono moves Cruising Speed, because it has no rule allowing it to.

Phototoxin wrote:I don't see why the whip cannot be fired when the mono moves...

it can fire if it moves, but not f it moves (or counts as moving) at cruising speed because the rules say it cannot.

It has no SPECIFIC rule stating it can.

Codex:Necron wrote:
Pg.21 - Power Matrix : The Power Matrix cannot be disabled by a 'weapon destroyed' result and may be used even if the Monolith moves, or is shaken or stunned. The Monolith may use its matrix in one of two ways each Necron turn:
1.In the shooting phase it may discharge the matrix's energy as a particle whip.

Last time I checked the BRB moving combat speed was moving, and moving cruising speed was moving. Deep Striking counts as moving cruising speed. How then can it be argued that the Monolith can't fire it's particle whip when it deep strikes? That is blatently not RAW.

dswanick wrote:

Codex:Necron wrote:
Pg.21 - Power Matrix : The Power Matrix cannot be disabled by a 'weapon destroyed' result and may be used even if the Monolith moves, or is shaken or stunned. The Monolith may use its matrix in one of two ways each Necron turn:
1.In the shooting phase it may discharge the matrix's energy as a particle whip.

Last time I checked the BRB moving combat speed was moving, and moving cruising speed was moving. Deep Striking counts as moving cruising speed. How then can it be argued that the Monolith can't fire it's particle whip when it deep strikes? That is blatently not RAW.

Does it say it can fire when moving Cruising Speed?

Yes or No.

One word Answer Please.

dswanick - find permission to fire AT CRUISING SPEED. Not "moving", which is a rule that only was needed in 3rd because you couldnt fire ordnance on the move, but something the specifically grants you permission to fire at cruising speed.

You cannot, so you cannot.

dswanick wrote:

Codex:Necron wrote:
Pg.21 - Power Matrix : The Power Matrix cannot be disabled by a 'weapon destroyed' result and may be used even if the Monolith moves, or is shaken or stunned. The Monolith may use its matrix in one of two ways each Necron turn:
1.In the shooting phase it may discharge the matrix's energy as a particle whip.

Last time I checked the BRB moving combat speed was moving, and moving cruising speed was moving. Deep Striking counts as moving cruising speed. How then can it be argued that the Monolith can't fire it's particle whip when it deep strikes? That is blatently not RAW.

The Monolith may move and fire it's Particle Whip (Use it's power matrix). My Vindicator may move and fire it's Demolisher Cannon. Neither may move at crusing speed and fire their respective weapons however. The moniolith has a rule that says it may move and fire, but in 5th edition every vehicle ostensibly has this same rule per the vehicle shooting rules. Just because the special rule had a meaning in previous editions doesn't mean we need to find a new meaning for it now.

Gwar! wrote:Does it say it can fire when moving Cruising Speed?

Yes or No.

One word Answer Please.

No.

Which is why I play it (and still maintain) that it cannot fire any weapons when it deep strikes.
Not all bad though, it can still teleport a unit of Necrons through the portal!

If we want some fun Monolith stuff to argue can we also bring up the +1 shots for every 'Weapon Destroyed" result?

Gwar! wrote:Does it say it can fire when moving Cruising Speed?
Yes or No.
One word Answer Please.

Is moving at cruising speed moving? Yes or NO, a one word answer please.

nosferatu1001 wrote:dswanick - find permission to fire AT CRUISING SPEED. Not "moving", which is a rule that only was needed in 3rd because you couldnt fire ordnance on the move, but something the specifically grants you permission to fire at cruising speed.
You cannot, so you cannot.

Basic Rulebook wrote:
Pg.57 - VEHICLES AND MOVEMENT - First paragraph, third bullet - A vehicle that travels more than 6" and up to 12" is moving at cruising speed.

The Basic Rulebook defines moving, moves, to move. It then breaks them down into subsets combat speed movement and cruising speed movement. Other rules add additional subsets : Fast movement, Skimmer movement, and Flat Out movement. But to move is to move.

zeshin wrote:The Monolith may move and fire it's Particle Whip (Use it's power matrix). My Vindicator may move and fire it's Demolisher Cannon. Neither may move at crusing speed and fire their respective weapons however. The moniolith has a rule that says it may move and fire, but in 5th edition every vehicle ostensibly has this same rule per the vehicle shooting rules. Just because the special rule had a meaning in previous editions doesn't mean we need to find a new meaning for it now.

Your Vindicator and all vehicles have the general rule that it may fire moving at combat speed, but not at cruising speed. The Monolith has a speciifc rule that states it may fire its particle whip when moving (combat speed=moving, cruising speed=moving, they are both distance specific subsets of the VEHICLES AND MOVEMENT rules). Specific > General.

Azure wrote:If we want some fun Monolith stuff to argue can we also bring up the +1 shots for every 'Weapon Destroyed" result?

This rule is seemingly just bad grammar. I think it bends common sense a little to argue the double negative. Personally I play Space Marines, and occasionally Imperial Guard, Adeptus Mechanicus, and Grey Knights. I would love to say that Monoliths can't have their Str9 pie plate on a deep strike, but come on, they've been nerfed enough without you guys gaming the definition of movement so that you can claim that moving isn't moving.

dswanick wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Does it say it can fire when moving Cruising Speed?
Yes or No.
One word Answer Please.

Is moving at cruising speed moving? Yes or NO, a one word answer please.

Yes.

Shame that by that logic Power Weapons don't work, eh?

Moving is General.
Moving Cruising Speed is Specific.

Specific > General.

If you don't like it, tough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dswanick wrote:Your Vindicator and all vehicles have the general rule that it may fire moving at combat speed, but not at cruising speed. The Monolith has a speciifc rule that states it may fire its particle whip when moving (combat speed=moving, cruising speed=moving, they are both distance specific subsets of the VEHICLES AND MOVEMENT rules). Specific > General.

Moving Cruising Speed is more Specific than Moving.

Therefore the rule for Moving Cruising Speed wins.

Gwar! wrote:

dswanick wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Does it say it can fire when moving Cruising Speed?
Yes or No.
One word Answer Please.

Is moving at cruising speed moving? Yes or NO, a one word answer please.

Yes.

Shame that by that logic Power Weapons don't work, eh?

Moving is General.
Moving Cruising Speed is Specific.

Specific > General.

If you don't like it, tough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dswanick wrote:Your Vindicator and all vehicles have the general rule that it may fire moving at combat speed, but not at cruising speed. The Monolith has a speciifc rule that states it may fire its particle whip when moving (combat speed=moving, cruising speed=moving, they are both distance specific subsets of the VEHICLES AND MOVEMENT rules). Specific > General.

Moving Cruising Speed is more Specific than Moving.

Therefore the rule for Moving Cruising Speed wins.

And Monoliths moving and still being able to fire is more specific than vehicles moving at cruising speed can't. Care to try again?

dswanick wrote:And Monoliths moving and still being able to fire is more specific than vehicles moving at cruising speed can't. Care to try again?

Except it isn't?

You do know what Specific > General means, right?