Salamanders Legion during the Heresy...

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**Brother Heinrich**

I was simply wondering what role the Salamanders played in the whole galactic drama, I know all the stories behind the traitor legions and I know most of the stories behind all the loyalists and their roles in the Heresy, the only one I don't know much about is the Salamanders. I mean the Raven Guard were rebuilding after Istvaan and doing the whole genetic experimentation thing, The Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, and White Scars ended up defending Terra at the final battle, The Iron Hands were sidelined AFAIK after Istvaan in order to rebuild/mourn the death of Ferrus Manus, The Ultramarines were busy with the Word Bearers over in Ultramar, and the Dark Angels were busy fighting amongst themselves. So what about the Salamanders? Where did they fit into the whole mess?

**reds8n**

The Salamanders were also at Istvaan and took heavy casualties there, this limited their options until later in the Heresy.

**Nurglitch**

Yup, they got mangled at Istvaan.

**Brother Heinrich**

okay gotcha, I couldn't remember if they were at Istvaan or not, I though it was only the Raven Guard and the Iron Hands and that everyone else there turned on them. What happened to the Iron Hands after Istvaan, same holding pattern as the Salamanders I assume?

**reds8n**

Pretty much.

That battle pretty much removed those 3 loyal legions from playing any part until later in the Heresy.

There still hasn't been that much info on this period yet, the next HH anthology "Age of Darkness" is set post Isstvaan and should start to see us learning more about the events between Isstvaan and the Siege of Terra.

... IIRC we should be getting a BA novel by Mr. Swallow detailing them versus the daemon hordes on.. Signis is it ? ... and.. a Raven Guard novel as well, set, at least partially, on/at/around Isstvaan as well, detailing some more about how the fleet(s) survived and what they did.

**Nurglitch**

That said there's probably a fair bit of drama to be had with these Legions desperately trying to consolidate and rebuild in the face of a potential Horus victory.

**Mr Nobody**

In the horus heresy books, it describes Vulcan as "vanishing into a mushroom cloud". Apparently he was fine after that explosion, but yeah they were thoroughly beaten.

**Brother Heinrich**

Good stuff, I can't wait, I've been really interested in finding out the backstory on the Word Bearers (at least more in depth) and the business with the Blood Angels on Signis would be an awesome read for sure, I really enjoyed the other works on the BA by Swallow.

**reds8n**

Brother Heinrich wrote:Good stuff, I can't wait, I've been really interested in finding out the backstory on the Word Bearers (at least more in depth)

You need to buy "The First Heretic" ASAP then.

and the business with the Blood Angels on Signis would be an awesome read for sure, I really enjoyed the other works on the BA by Swallow.

Agreed, and so do I. I think much of the criticism is harsh and ill thought out.

*internet joke*

**Brother Heinrich**

reds8n wrote:
Brother Heinrich wrote:Good stuff, I can't wait, I've been really interested in finding out the backstory on the Word Bearers (at least more in depth)

You need to buy "The First Heretic" ASAP then.

and the business with the Blood Angels on Signis would be an awesome read for sure, I really enjoyed the other works on the BA by Swallow.

Agreed, and so do I. I think much of the criticism is harsh and ill thought out.
*internet joke*

I didn't think the first heretic was out yet, quickly to the thunderhawk! and yeah I never understood the criticism either, it seems a lot of people get hung up on Dan Abnett and refuse acknowledge any other 40k authors as having any merit. I enjoy the way he keeps things gritty and dark, its nice when it seems some authors tend to move towards this strangely light-hearted, progressive view of the Imperium.

**Alpharius**

Swallow is responsible for some pretty bad Blood Angel books, actually.

Though, surprisingly enough, his Horus Heresy series work is OK!

**Brother Heinrich**

Alpharius wrote:Swallow is responsible for some pretty bad Blood Angel books, actually.

In what way if you don't mind my asking?

**Gwar!**

Salamanders were so badly mangled they had close to no Marines left. It wouldn't be far off to say they had maybe 5 Apothecaries and 40 others + Vulkan.

They were so mangled that they didn't have ANY 2nd Founding successors, which took place a far bit after the Heresy, while the Raven Guard had 3 (so had at between 3,000 and 4,000 at the time of the 2nd Founding).

**Brother Heinrich**

Gwar! wrote:Salamanders were so badly mangled they had close to no Marines left. It wouldn't be far off to say they had maybe 5 Apothecaries and 40 others + Vulkan.

They were so mangled that they didn't have ANY 2nd Founding successors, which took place a far bit after the Heresy, while the Raven Guard had 3 (so had at between 3,000 and 4,000 at the time of the 2nd Founding).

Jeebus, well that's understandable then, good thing some Apothecaries made it or they would've been down and out

**reds8n**

Gwar! wrote:Salamanders were so badly mangled they had close to no Marines left. It wouldn't be far off to say they had maybe 5 Apothecaries and 40 others + Vulkan.

Hmm.. I don't know about that, some of the hints and teasers in the Salamander series would suggest that they had more than this left post Isstvaan. That might be about the right amount who made it off of Istvaan however.

The RG took something like 80K+ losses there.

First Heretic comes out in November IIRC.. had mine a while now anyway

... but there are reports of it being in some shops already. NOt sure if this applies to North America or not.

Worth the wait though.

**Gwar!**

True, I was talking about the Istvaan survivors, but you have to admit that having less than 1,000 several decades AFTER it means they must have taken a massive blow.

**Brother Heinrich**

reds8n wrote:
Gwar! wrote:Salamanders were so badly mangled they had close to no Marines left. It wouldn't be far off to say they had maybe 5 Apothecaries and 40 others + Vulkan.

Hmm.. I don't know about that, some of the hints and teasers in the Salamander series would suggest that they had more than this left post Isstvaan. That might be about the right amount who made it off of Istvaan however.

The RG took something like 80K+ losses there.

First Heretic comes out in November IIRC.. had mine a while now anyway ... but there are reports of it being in some shops already. NOt sure if this applies to North America or not.

Worth the wait though.

Jealousy!!! and 80k losses!? it's amazing the Raven Guard even survived after that

**jimmy72nd**

Theres alot of information on all the legions in "Index Astartes volumes 1 - 4, and "Insignium Astartes" there not in production anymore but you can pick them up on ebay..

jim..

**Pilau Rice**

The IA article on the Salamanders is one of the few that doesn't give much detail on their involvement in the Istvaan incident as well as the Heresy.

It only says

Founding successor Chapters formed from the Salamanders, whilst the other Legions were broken down into several smaller fighting forces. Others point to the disaster at Istvaan V as reason for the lack of Second Founding Chapters (as many scholars believe the Salamanders to have been present at this infamous massacre). It is a matter of debate whether there have been Successor Chapters during subsequent Foundings

and

Each Company is slightly larger than a standard Codex Company, and squads were reorganised following Roboute Guilliman's writing of the Codex Astartes after the Great Heresy.

Theres not even a mention of Horus from what I can see

The ones for the Raven Guard and Iron Hands provide more detail

**Grey Templar**

The salamanders never were very numerous were they. other Legions had upwards of 100,000. i doubt they were above 10,000(their starting Strength on Terra)

IIRC they are around 800 marines with no more then 2-3 Successor Chapters IF any exist at all as none are named.

they definitly took a beating on Istavan. Why did Vulkan decide to leave when his legion, now chapter, was in no shape to be left alone?

**Brother Heinrich**

Grey Templar wrote:The salamanders never were very numerous were they. other Legions had upwards of 100,000. i doubt they were above 10,000(their starting Strength on Terra)

IIRC they are around 800 marines with no more then 2-3 Successor Chapters IF any exist at all as none are named.

they definitly took a beating on Istavan. Why did Vulkan decide to leave when his legion, now chapter, was in no shape to be left alone?

a good question, seems a rather Emperor-like thing to do, you know, leaving people in the dark and expecting them to trust in his grand plan. Worked out well for Magnus didn't it?

**Trilobite**

I thought he was meant to be returning around the same time as russ, for one big final battle...

of course whether or not this means anything is debatable.

**Pilau Rice**

Vulkan is on of the Primarchs where we know very little about what happened between Istvaan and his disappearance.

We know that he agreed to the Codex and that he did vanish but that's all.

This organisation is still true today, although ever since the disappearance of Vulkan some thousand years after the Legion's Founding, the Captain of the First Company has been given the role of Chapter Master. This position is considered a regency by the Salamanders, who believe that one day Vulkan will return to lead the Chapter in a great campaign to conquer Chaos.

**reds8n**

And during this time he forged and left several clues and artifacts which will/should guide his legion during dark times ahead.

**Pilau Rice**

reds8n wrote:And during this time he forged and left several clues and artifacts which will/should guide his legion during dark times ahead.

Oooh yeah, I forgot this, it's from Nick Kymes Salamander Novel right?

**BloodDrop101X**

I didnt even know the salamanders were at Istvaan I thought they were second founding chapter wow I feel smart...

**reds8n**

Pilau Rice wrote:
reds8n wrote:And during this time he forged and left several clues and artifacts which will/should guide his legion during dark times ahead.

Oooh yeah, I forgot this, it's from Nick Kymes Salamander Novel right?

Yeah, I'm about halfway through book 2 of that series...rough times ahead for Vulkan's boys.

..That said when i dsiappear, to reappear in the future when all is threatened the clues I'll leave will be more in the form of clear and concise instructions. It'll have a FAQ and perhaps even a cheat sheet too.

**Brother Heinrich**

reds8n wrote:
..That said when i disappear, to reappear in the future when all is threatened, the clues I'll leave will be more in the form of clear and concise instructions. It'll have a FAQ and perhaps even a cheat sheet too.

at least someone learned from the Emperors, Russ', Vulcans, The Khan's, and Corax's mistakes.

**Grey Templar**

i hope they eventually bring Vulkan and Russ back and have models and rules for them.

**Brother Heinrich**

Grey Templar wrote:i hope they eventually bring Vulkan and Russ back and have models and rules for them.

for some reason I think balancing might be an issue lol, "On the turn Russ enters the battlefield, he wins. Thanks for playing."