Iran says no to learnin and stuff

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**Ahtman**

Article

By NASSER KARIMI, Associated Press Writer Nasser Karimi, Associated Press Writer – Sun Oct 24, 10:02 am ET

TEHRAN, Iran – Iran has imposed new restrictions on 12 university social sciences deemed to be based on Western schools of thought and therefore incompatible with Islamic teachings, state radio reported Sunday.

The list includes law, philosophy, management, psychology, political science and the two subjects that appear to cause the most concern among Iran's conservative leadership — women's studies and human rights.

"The content of the current courses in the 12 subjects is not in harmony with religious fundamentals and they are based on Western schools of thought," senior education official Abolfazl Hassani told state radio.

Hassani said the restrictions prevent universities from opening new departments in these subjects. The government will also revise the content of current programs by up to 70 percent over the next few years, he said.

The decision is seen as a response to concerns expressed last year by Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who said the subjects could lead to religious doubts. Khamenei, who has final say on all state matters in Iran, urged officials to take altering the curriculum into "serious consideration."

Some two million out of 3.5 million Iranian university students are studying social sciences and humanities, according to government statistics.

University students have played a key role in opposition protests in Iran, especially after the country's disputed presidential election last year, which opposition activists say hardline President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad won through massive fraud.

Since Ahmadinejad came to power in 2005, he has pushed a revival of the fundamentalist goals pursued in the 1980s under the late Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, father of the 1979 Islamic revolution in Iran.

In 2006, dozens of liberal university professors and teachers were sent into retirement, drawing strong protests from students. Liberal and secular professors teach at universities around the country, but they are a minority. Most are politically passive and do not identify with either the hard-liners or the liberal camp.

In 1980, Iran closed down universities for two years to get rid of partisan students of political groups, mostly armed leftist ones.

I am just shocked. Shocked I tells ya.

**Brother Heinrich**

Iran is today what the Imperium is tomorrow lol

**Kilkrazy**

Apparently science and engineering aren't based on western schools of thought.

**Ma55ter_fett**

Kilkrazy wrote:Apparently science and engineering aren't based on western schools of thought.

To be fair the only science and engineering that they are concerned about is gunpowder and its application in warfare.

And gunpowder was first developed in eastern Asia

Now nuclear power on the other hand...

**IAmTheWalrus**

Ma55ter_fett wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:Apparently science and engineering aren't based on western schools of thought.

To be fair the only science and engineering that they are concerned about is gunpowder and its application in warfare.

And gunpowder was first developed in eastern Asia

Now nuclear power on the other hand...

Because civil, electrical, mechanical and aeronautical engineering have no place in a developing country like Iran.

It saddens me to see restrictions like these coming into play. A couple years ago it looked like there might be some light at the end of the tunnel, but the hardliners just keep tightening the screw.

**Nurglitch**

Science and engineering aren't based on Western schools of thought: a wheel is a wheel regardless of your underlying philosophy. The Humanities, on the other hand, are based on Western cultural norms. Psychology, for example, is notorious for basing its research on a very small sample of humanity: Western college students.

**Kilkrazy**

They will fail in the end.

**LordofHats**

Nurglitch wrote:Psychology, for example, is notorious for basing its research on a very small sample of humanity: Western college students.

Ha!

**Ma55ter_fett**

Nurglitch wrote:Science and engineering aren't based on Western schools of thought: a wheel is a wheel regardless of your underlying philosophy. The Humanities, on the other hand, are based on Western cultural norms. Psychology, for example, is notorious for basing its research on a very small sample of humanity: Western college students.

They could write an entire book on my mind if they ever dared look inside.

**Cheesecat**

Ma55ter_fett wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:Science and engineering aren't based on Western schools of thought: a wheel is a wheel regardless of your underlying philosophy. The Humanities, on the other hand, are based on Western cultural norms. Psychology, for example, is notorious for basing its research on a very small sample of humanity: Western college students.

They could write an entire book on my mind if they ever dared look inside.

They could probably do the same with your avatar, I mean what is that thing?

**Nurglitch**

Speaking of Western philosophical sacred cows, it's dogma that one cannot see into another's mind. It might be to their benefit to have to develop an equivalent science without assuming Western philosophies prior to doing so.

**WarOne**

Nurglitch wrote:Speaking of Western philosophical sacred cows, it's dogma that one cannot see into another's mind. It might be to their benefit to have to develop an equivalent science without assuming Western philosophies prior to doing so.

Wait...do you mean Dakka's dogma or the mantras of how theological law does not mix with western advancement and kulture?

**Nurglitch**

I mean "a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle."

**Kilkrazy**

LordofHats wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:Psychology, for example, is notorious for basing its research on a very small sample of humanity: Western college students.

Ha!

Iran doesn't propose to do psychology on Iranians, they simply don't believe it exists.

**WarOne**

Nurglitch wrote:I mean "a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle."

Wait...your using one of those technical things that gives precise answers to everything.

Dakka has one of those too: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/user/profile/5534.page

**Nurglitch**

Kilkrazy:

They have a point though. in a theocratic state stuff like the Humanities will be in direct conflict with whatever religion they have going. There's a reason religious conservatives are threatened by the Humanities, and that's because stuff like psychology, sociology, and so on infringes on religious authority.

**WarOne**

Nurglitch wrote:Kilkrazy:

They have a point though. in a theocratic state stuff like the Humanities will be in direct conflict with whatever religion they have going. There's a reason religious conservatives are threatened by the Humanities, and that's because stuff like psychology, sociology, and so on infringes on religious authority.

Well, in any event we have no way of influencing their decision to do this short of a tempered speech against curtailing freedom along the lines of Western democracies.

Of course, maybe the Iranians need to do this to maintain national harmony, for they will need to stay harmonious against a largely indifferent or hostile world if they plan to continue antagonizing Israel, the United States, and other western democracies.

**Kilkrazy**

Nurglitch wrote:Kilkrazy:

They have a point though. in a theocratic state stuff like the Humanities will be in direct conflict with whatever religion they have going. There's a reason religious conservatives are threatened by the Humanities, and that's because stuff like psychology, sociology, and so on infringes on religious authority.

Yes, I agree completely.

**LordofHats**

Kilkrazy wrote:
LordofHats wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:Psychology, for example, is notorious for basing its research on a very small sample of humanity: Western college students.

Ha!

Iran doesn't propose to do psychology on Iranians, they simply don't believe it exists.

Okay... I was just laughing at the comment because I found it entertaining because its sort of true.

I have no idea what Iranians think of the issue. Akmahwhatshisname and his government have only comes to my attention when their doing or saying something stupid, so to say I'm surprised by this would by lying. I mean, after holocaust denial and claiming the US government staged 9/11 (EDIT: And didn't Iran gut its college system a few years ago too by throwing out a bunch of teachers or something?) he's kind of running out of outrageous things to do.

They have a point though. in a theocratic state stuff like the Humanities will be in direct conflict with whatever religion they have going. There's a reason religious fundamentalists are threatened by the Humanities, and that's because stuff like psychology, sociology, and so on infringes on religious authority.

Fixed that for you.

**Nurglitch**

Thank you for fixing that, because if there's anything that's common knowledge, it's the conservative love of a liberal education...

**LordofHats**

Nurglitch wrote:Thank you for fixing that, because if there's anything that's common knowledge, it's the conservative love of a liberal education...

If there's anything that's common knowledge it's that the Liberal Arts and Liberals aren't the same thing /end sarcasm

Religious conservative is to ambiguous a term for what you were trying to express. What you said is true of Fundamentalists, and some other religious conservatives I'm sure, but I know and am, religiously conservative and have no issue with the humanities at all, nor does anyone in my family (and we're all in the same camp on my mom's side) or anyone at the numerous churches I've attended. The worst I've ever heard is that the evil liberal hypocrites use the humanities to push their agenda and to produce propaganda, not that the humanities themselves are a threat to religion. So yeah, I felt it needed a little specifiying because what you said on its face isn't true and is a gross over simplified generalization of a a large and varied group.

**Nurglitch**

It makes sense for a religious conservative to fall back on the "Humanities don't promote the liberal agenda, liberals use the Humanities to promote a liberal agenda" argument."

Though I'm glad to hear you have no issues with the promotion of homosexuality as an alternative sexual lifestyle, the abandonment of theosophy in favour of post-structuralism, acknowledging the oppression of organized religion, and atheism.

I, for one, applaud religious conservatives for their loyal opposition to the Humanities. May All Powerful Atheismo grant them eternal oblivion as their meaningless and ultimately futile attempts to sharpen liberal arguments against religious fundamentalists.

Seriously though, I must say I'm baffled by the notion that the Humanities are neutral with regard to religion, and that pursuing their advancement doesn't somehow seriously conflict with the religious agenda.

**Frazzled**

Nurglitch wrote:It makes sense for a religious conservative to fall back on the "Humanities don't promote the liberal agenda, liberals use the Humanities to promote a liberal agenda" argument."

Though I'm glad to hear you have no issues with the promotion of homosexuality as an alternative sexual lifestyle, the abandonment of theosophy in favour of post-structuralism, acknowledging the oppression of organized religion, and atheism.

I, for one, applaud religious conservatives for their loyal opposition to the Humanities. May All Powerful Atheismo grant them eternal oblivion as their meaningless and ultimately futile attempts to sharpen liberal arguments against religious fundamentalists.

Seriously though, I must say I'm baffled by the notion that the Humanities are neutral with regard to religion, and that pursuing their advancement doesn't somehow seriously conflict with the religious agenda.

And none of that has anything to do with either a classical education, or an education in the Humanities.
Most conservatives I know have no issue with the Humanities, just that its harder to get a job with a degree in that field.

**LordofHats**

Nurglitch wrote:It makes sense for a religious conservative to fall back on the "Humanities don't promote the liberal agenda, liberals use the Humanities to promote a liberal agenda" argument."

Though I'm glad to hear you have no issues with the promotion of homosexuality as an alternative sexual lifestyle, the abandonment of theosophy in favour of post-structuralism, acknowledging the oppression of organized religion, and atheism.

I, for one, applaud religious conservatives for their loyal opposition to the Humanities. May All Powerful Atheismo grant them eternal oblivion as their meaningless and ultimately futile attempts to sharpen liberal arguments against religious fundamentalists.

Seriously though, I must say I'm baffled by the notion that the Humanities are neutral with regard to religion, and that pursuing their advancement doesn't somehow seriously conflict with the religious agenda.

... Serious? *Joker Face*

I'm too lazy to go find the actual picture so sue me -.-

You must not know very many religious conservatives, or you've only me those of a certain type. Fundamentalists are the only group of religious conservatives I can name who have elements to believe as you seem to think all religious conservatives do, and I'm sure there are others whose names I don't know. I've personally never heard any of those around me claim that the Humanities are inherently opposed to religion.

I'm not really sure where you've gotten this idea. Even the fundamentalists who say what you are saying we all say are fringe groups. Mainstream Christian Right types don't in advocate what your suggesting from what I've seen and I've seen a lot. My first college was run by the Southern Baptist's and they had as full an offering of the Humanities as I could expect from such a school of their size. My mom is pretty hardline conservative, and thinks the Liberals are out to destroy and corrupt humanity, but she's the one who says "Hats, you have to go to college and get a good liberal education. That's how you get a good job etc etc mother talk".

Now, maybe religious conservatives who have never been to college might confuse the Liberal Arts with Liberals, but as far as I can tell anyone whose ever been to college knows there's a difference between the two, and that the presence of the word Liberal in Liberal Education, isn't quite the same thing as the use of the word in political rhetoric. I'm just not seeing where this stance that religious conservatives oppose the humanities outright because they're in opposition to religion comes from cause I don't see it. My family is in the army, I've been around a few blocks a few times. Of the dozens of churches I've been dragged to in my life that my mom shopped for looking for just the right one that fit her particular stances, I've never once seen any of these things you suggested, not to say they don't do some crazy stuff, cause I've seen plenty of that, just not this flavor.

**Nurglitch**

All the parts before the "Seriously though," are what humans call a "joke", indicated by the presence of absurd and nonsensical information.

After this important signpost, I express my opinion with regard to the state of the Humanities and Religion, one that I'm sure the Clerics of Qom share. You can tell it's my opinion and not one I attribute to the amorphous group "religious conservative" by the way I wrote "I'm baffled" that religious conservatives don't see the contradiction. But if the American religious conservatives you know are unaware of this inconsistency, so much the better; I envy them for their ability to enjoy the best of each without the moral cost of doubt, and wish the Mullahs were similarly unburdened. Like religious people, I too can hope for the best in the face of all the evidence.

**LordofHats**

Nurglitch wrote:After this important signpost, I express my opinion with regard to the state of the Humanities and Religion, one that I'm sure the Clerics of Qom share. You can tell it's my opinion and not one I attribute to the amorphous group "religious conservative" by the way I wrote "I'm baffled" that religious conservatives don't see the contradiction. But if the American religious conservatives you know are unaware of this inconsistency, so much the better; I envy them for their ability to enjoy the best of each without the moral cost of doubt, and wish the Mullahs were similarly unburdened. Like religious people, I too can hope for the best in the face of all the evidence.

Explain this contradiction. Religion is itself an element of the Humanities. How can it contradict itself... Oh. I see what you did there... Or did I do it?

Really though, I don't get it. How is studying history, or running a psychological/sociological survey (EDIT: Never mind, those two are social sciences. I'll just use one of my stupid moments I still have 1 left) automatically at odds with religion? It makes no sense to me XD.

**Ahtman**

LordofHats wrote:Really though, I don't get it. How is studying history, or running a psychological/sociological survey (EDIT: Never mind, those two are social sciences. I'll just use one of my stupid moments I still have 1 left) automatically at odds with religion? It makes no sense to me XD.

It isn't about religion, it is about power and control. Studying at a University usually involves studying various perspectives and if you want yours to be the only one, than you can't let others really know about them. This has to do with keeping young men from being protesters, not religion.

**dogma**

Nurglitch wrote:Speaking of Western philosophical sacred cows, it's dogma that one cannot see into another's mind. It might be to their benefit to have to develop an equivalent science without assuming Western philosophies prior to doing so.

Shhh, you'll disturb the beetle.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordofHats wrote:
You must not know very many religious conservatives, or you've only me those of a certain type. Fundamentalists are the only group of religious conservatives I can name who have elements to believe as you seem to think all religious conservatives do, and I'm sure there are others whose names I don't know. I've personally never heard any of those around me claim that the Humanities are inherently opposed to religion.

It is perhaps better to say that the Humanities are necessarily opposed to the dominant Western religions; especially Christianity and Islam.

Also, what are you including in the Humanities? Its a fairly mutable category, but its gotten more restricted of late. For example, political science, psychology, sociology, anthropology, and a couple others are generally separated from that class, and occasionally regarded as outright sciences. Humanities these days tends to be limited to Gender Studies, Regional Studies, Literature, History, and Philosophy.

**Ahtman**

Dogma wrote:political science, psychology, sociology, anthropology, and a couple others are generally separated from that class, and occasionally regarded as outright sciences.

Damnable lies and outright self-delusion!

**Frazzled**

Ahtman wrote:
Dogma wrote:political science, psychology, sociology, anthropology, and a couple others are generally separated from that class, and occasionally regarded as outright sciences.

Damnable lies and outright self-delusion!

Just from the intiial posts I think Iran was including these in the category.

If Humanities is now Literature, History, and Philosophy, what if you have a major in the history of Philosophy? Are you really a double major?