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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/13 21:55:00
Subject: Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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So pretty sure I just got hosed bad.
Was playing Chaos player, Berserker heavy list. I had my GH squad fire dual meltas into a Zerker rhino, desteoyed - exploded result. Yea, I will assault them now. The guy places his Zerkers on the other side of the rhino, as if they disembarked, thus putting them out of assault range. I told him that the vehicle is removed and the unit is supposed to be placed in the crater to which he replied, they are on the edge of the crater. Now he did this twice to me, with two separate GH packs which both times I would have robbed him of his chwrge bonus and FC. Again mentioning that they were just on the far edge of the crater. Understand that he was NOT inside the footprint of the rhino, but as if he disembarked from it.
Game is over, but I will play this guy again someday and want the argument against this obvious stretch of placing inside the crater.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/13 21:58:38
Subject: Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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p.61 Destroyed -- Explodes
The vehicle is [then] removed and is replaced with an area of difficult ground...
p.67 Destroyed -- explodes!
The surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle used to be and then take a Pinning test.
The passengers should be in the crater, not on the edge out of charge distance.
Open and shut case.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/11/13 22:01:12
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 04:18:06
Subject: Re:Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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As KK said, nothing says they're placed anywhere in particular on the crater. They're placed where the vehicle used to be. If this happens to be on the very edge of the footprint of the vehicle, so be it, that's legal, but they cannot be placed OUTSIDE of the footprint of the vehicle.
Legally, he could've just moved them about a millimeter so that part of the base was barely inside of the vehicle's previous footprint and it'd be kosher, so you didn't get hosed too bad. Just slightly.
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DQ:80+S+++G++M+B+I+Pw40k10#+D++A++/areWD-R+++T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 05:37:16
Subject: Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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Slippery Scout Biker
Fort Myers, Fl
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umm... no. The passengers are supposed to be placed where the vehicle was, not so that one of them, or some of them, or none of them are on the outside tip of the crater. If he really wants to be a super d*ck than replace the craters you have with ones the size of say... a rhino. That way when he is cheating he won't be able to get away from you and he will still get to have them on the 'edge' of a crater.
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Where others fail, the BOOM Brigade shall prevail.
~Custos ex Forma 'Master of BOOM's.
3,000 points (BOOM brigade)
19-1-1 (Wins-Loses-Ties)
2,500 points (Dark Angels)
5-0-0 (Still Wins-Loses-Ties)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 06:22:22
Subject: Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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SaintHazard wrote:As KK said, nothing says they're placed anywhere in particular on the crater. They're placed where the vehicle used to be. If this happens to be on the very edge of the footprint of the vehicle, so be it, that's legal, but they cannot be placed OUTSIDE of the footprint of the vehicle.
Legally, he could've just moved them about a millimeter so that part of the base was barely inside of the vehicle's previous footprint and it'd be kosher, so you didn't get hosed too bad. Just slightly.
Well the rule says inside the crater. Anything other then inside the crater is not inside the crater. If I was standing outside of a house and put one foot in the door, I am not in the house.
I think I am going to pick up some felt from the fabric store, cut out several vehicle shapes, and that will be the standard for craters I bring to the gaming table.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 06:41:17
Subject: Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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Slippery Scout Biker
Fort Myers, Fl
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Good call.
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Where others fail, the BOOM Brigade shall prevail.
~Custos ex Forma 'Master of BOOM's.
3,000 points (BOOM brigade)
19-1-1 (Wins-Loses-Ties)
2,500 points (Dark Angels)
5-0-0 (Still Wins-Loses-Ties)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 08:30:26
Subject: Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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1st Lieutenant
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what if it was, for exampl a skimmer, moving flat out
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 08:33:08
Subject: Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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It asks you to be placed within the footprint. If 1mm of your base is within the footprint, you ARE within the footperint.
It places no restriction s saying *entirely* within the foot print.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 10:38:22
Subject: Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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nosferatu1001 wrote:It asks you to be placed within the footprint. If 1mm of your base is within the footprint, you ARE within the footperint.
It places no restriction s saying *entirely* within the foot print.
That is not what it says. It says this:
p.67 Destroyed -- explodes!
The surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle used to be...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 11:35:46
Subject: Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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SaintHazard wrote:Legally, he could've just moved them about a millimeter so that part of the base was barely inside of the vehicle's previous footprint and it'd be kosher, so you didn't get hosed too bad. Just slightly.
No he could not have, see below.
nosferatu1001 wrote:It asks you to be placed within the footprint. If 1mm of your base is within the footprint, you ARE within the footperint.
It places no restriction s saying *entirely* within the foot print.
P.3 measuring distances "a model is considered to occupy the area of its base..."
p.67 Destroyed -- explodes!
The surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle used to be
The area of the base is placed where the vehicle used to be, ergo the area of the base needs to be *entirely* within the foot print.
if a part of the area of the base is not where the vehicle used to be, then you have broken a rule.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/11/14 11:37:54
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 12:18:32
Subject: Re:Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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Wicked Warp Spider
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Before this turns into a flame war, I hope everyone involved realizes that it's often impossible to place all models entirely within a Xeno transport's footprint. Try placing 12 25mm models entirely within the footprint of a Falcon.
Remember that GW doesn't write rules for tournaments, so you have to be somewhat adaptable. In this case you place as many models as is possible within the vehicle's radius. It does sound like the OP's opponent cheated - intentionally or otherwise is impossible to say, however.
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I really need to stay away from the 40K forums. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 12:41:23
Subject: Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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Yes, that's true.
Of course, some of the passengers may get killed in the explosion.
If not, the key question is whether the models should be placed as much as possible within the vehicle's outline -- clustered in a kind of deepstriking arrangement -- or whether they can be placed around the edge of the outline to move them farther away from potential assault.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 14:20:36
Subject: Re:Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Nos hit it right on the head. There's no qualifier saying the base must be entirely within the footprint of the vehicle, and NOTHING says anything about placing them inside the CRATER. Those words are never used, and if you're using them, you're altering the rules.
The rules say the models are placed where the vehicle used to be. If even a millimeter of your base is inside the footprint, you're satisfying the requirements. If you have one foot inside a house, you are both inside the house and not inside the house. "Not inside the house" is something you're not disallowed from being as long as you're also "inside the house." Your foot, inside the house, means you are legally placing your self-model.
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DQ:80+S+++G++M+B+I+Pw40k10#+D++A++/areWD-R+++T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 15:16:52
Subject: Re:Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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SaintHazard wrote:Nos hit it right on the head. There's no qualifier saying the base must be entirely within the footprint of the vehicle, and NOTHING says anything about placing them inside the CRATER. Those words are never used, and if you're using them, you're altering the rules.
The rules say the models are placed where the vehicle used to be. If even a millimeter of your base is inside the footprint, you're satisfying the requirements. If you have one foot inside a house, you are both inside the house and not inside the house. "Not inside the house" is something you're not disallowed from being as long as you're also "inside the house." Your foot, inside the house, means you are legally placing your self-model.
The vehicle used to be in a factory in Nottingham. If your models aren't placed with 1mm of their base overlapping the loading gate of the factory, you have broken the rules.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 15:20:07
Subject: Re:Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Kilkrazy wrote:The vehicle used to be in a factory in Nottingham. If your models aren't placed with 1mm of their base overlapping the loading gate of the factory, you have broken the rules.
Except that game terms and real-world terms don't overlap. That's why qualifiers like "where the vehicle used to be on the table" are not necessary - this is all understood.  So you only need to place the infantry where the vehicle used to be on the game table on which you're playing the game for which the rules were written, et cetera.
I get the feeling you're being facetious, but just in case you're not, there it is.
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DQ:80+S+++G++M+B+I+Pw40k10#+D++A++/areWD-R+++T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 17:53:10
Subject: Re:Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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SaintHazard wrote:Nos hit it right on the head. There's no qualifier saying the base must be entirely within the footprint of the vehicle, and NOTHING says anything about placing them inside the CRATER. Those words are never used, and if you're using them, you're altering the rules.
The rules say the models are placed where the vehicle used to be. If even a millimeter of your base is inside the footprint, you're satisfying the requirements. If you have one foot inside a house, you are both inside the house and not inside the house. "Not inside the house" is something you're not disallowed from being as long as you're also "inside the house." Your foot, inside the house, means you are legally placing your self-model.
There is a qualifier for the model being entirely within the footprint of the vehicle.
Since 'a model is considered to occupy the area of its base' (P.3)
Therefore the area of its base must be 'where the vehicle used to be'
If the 'area of its base' is outside 'where the vehicle used to be' then you have not followed the Rule:
"p.67 Destroyed -- explodes!
The surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle used to be..."
you draw an imaginary box where the vehicle used to be and the 'area of its base' is placed where the vehicle used to be.
Not partially within where the vehicle used to be, not outside of where the vehicle used to be. 'where the vehicle used to be' anything else would be breaking the rule.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 18:12:06
Subject: Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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DR - you are making things up again. Surprise.
There is NO QUALIFIER at all - the rule has already been given. Automatically Appended Next Post: Just to point out: this is the EXACT same made up rule that you attempted to use, and was disproved dozens of time, in the "immobilised just on the table" thread.
It didnt pass muster then, it doesnt now. Presenting it as fact when it isnt is....well, i'll leave that as an exercise to the reader.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/11/14 18:48:00
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 19:33:11
Subject: Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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Huge Bone Giant
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The measuring section lets you know that models partially within x inches are said to be within x inches.
Not only is there no qualifier, there is explicit allowance.
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"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 20:06:07
Subject: Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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Well.
We are as usual dealing with GW written rules, which is why I made my facetious example of placing the passengers within the factory where the vehicle model was produced.
The point is that lots of terms, such as "assault", are used in the rules, and may or may not have different meanings to their meaning IRL. If their meaning in the game is different, it needs to be defined.
People not unnaturally read the rules in English, rather than GW rule lawyerese.
The best argument that can be found for nudging ex-passengers 1mm over the edge of the crater is this:
p.61. Damage Results 6 Destroyed -- Explodes
The vehicle is then removed and replaced with an area of difficult ground ... or a crater ...
p.13. Area Terrain
It is left to the players to define if a vehicle explosion debris field is area terrain, giving cover.
p.22. Inside Area Terrain
Target models whose bases are at least partially inside area terrain are in cover...
(Please note that a crater isn't area terrain.)
If we follow the principle that a model touching a piece of area terrain is in cover, and we consider that the debris field of an exploded vehicle gives cover, there is grounds for allowing ex-passengers to be placed touching the edge of the debris field. OTOH we could equally fairly conclude that the presence of cover is irrelevant, since the rule on p.67 doesn't mention it.
However if a crater is used, it is not area terrain, so models cannot claim to be in the area if their base edge overlaps it. In this case, we would decide that the ex-passengers must be placed within the crater as fully as possible, to comply with the rule on p.67.
On balance, given the commplexities and uncertainties of the whole thing, I would suggest that ex-passenger models be placed within the area formally occupied by the vehicle. This has the great advantage of simplicity.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 20:29:12
Subject: Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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I think some of you don't realize the players rationale of the edge of the crater.
Think of when you deploy your first rank of a unit out of a transport. You hug along the edge of your vehicle before you start placing your second rank.
So I destroyed - exploded the Berserkers Rhino. He placed the surviving Berserkers alongside the Rhino, exactly as if he had just disembarked them, and said they were on the edge of the crater.
I am going to be getting some opinions on I from some locals and see how the store will be playing it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 20:37:18
Subject: Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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The way I see it is like when a clown car explodes and the passengers are left lying on a pile of wreckage, smoke coming out of their hair.
When you disembark normally you place the passengers within two inches of an exit. They don't have to hug the hull.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 21:26:19
Subject: Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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And I think there is a qualifier.
"The surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle used to be and then take a pinning test."
Now if the model is said to occupy the area of its base, then we know the exact area of where the vehicle used to be.
If you were then to partialy place just the edge of the models base in the exact known area of where the vehicle used to be, the remaining part of the models base is not where the vehicle used to be. The model may be partially where the vehicle used to be, but that is not the rule.
Now, I can see where the argument is coming from some that says the rule does not give you an absolute, however like I just pointed out we are given am absolute. The Rhino in this case occupied the area of its base so therefore where the vehicle used to be is clearly defined. Anything outside that area is not inside the place it used to be.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/11/14 21:31:18
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 21:42:04
Subject: Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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And the model IS inside where it used to be, as you are told that if 1mm of a model is inside X range the whole model is considered to be,.
You are not told to place *entirely* within, so you dont have to.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 22:16:21
Subject: Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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Plummeting Black Templar Thunderhawk Pilot
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Didnt this come up in a similar fashion to the thread about reserves coming on the table? As in, if its partially on, its on? So hence through that argument, if each model in the squad is partially where the vehicle used to be, then it should be legal?
At our FLGS, we replace the tank with the crater and make sure that the squad is in the "big hole" as part of that piece of terrain.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 22:16:47
Subject: Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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Stalwart Ultramarine Tactical Marine
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1. It is definitely up to the player to determine whether or not a piece of terrain is "area terrain"; this goes for a crater.
2. The word "inside" is totally up for debate. If you have one foot inside a house, and the other on the sidewalk, you are both inside and not inside the house.
3. As is the classic case of this forum, just because something isn't mentioned in the rules as being explicitly forbidden, doesn't mean that it is acceptable.
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Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
THE EMPRAH!
There. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Smurfies 5th company
1750ish points
Joint Biel-Tan Army with Tortoiseer
-1000ish points
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 22:44:02
Subject: Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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nosferatu1001 wrote:DR - you are making things up again. Surprise.
There is NO QUALIFIER at all - the rule has already been given.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to point out: this is the EXACT same made up rule that you attempted to use, and was disproved dozens of time, in the "immobilised just on the table" thread.
It didnt pass muster then, it doesnt now. Presenting it as fact when it isnt is....well, i'll leave that as an exercise to the reader.
Note that none of the rules that i referenced, i made up.
those are the rules as quoted from the BRB
and since the area of the base (note: please learn what area means) needs to be where the vehicle used to be, then you have to place the area of the base where the vehicle used to be, and not outside of that area.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/11/14 22:44:50
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 22:55:13
Subject: Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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nosferatu1001 wrote:And the model IS inside where it used to be, as you are told that if 1mm of a model is inside X range the whole model is considered to be,.
You are not told to place *entirely* within, so you dont have to.
I think you are mixing the requiremnts with cover to justify your position. Just so I understand, are you considering the requirements of cover on pg 22 of the BRB:
I Inside aread terrain: Target models whose bases are at least partially inside area terrain are in cover;.....
That doesn't define if a model is inside the area that used to be a vehicle, that defines if a model is in cover and only that. If the rule said place the survivors in the cover created by the destroyed vehicle, partially placing the base of the model in the cover would be sufficient.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 23:02:46
Subject: Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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DR - you are making up the requirement to be ENTIRELY within. You made it up last time a question about partially / entirely was brought up, and you were thoroughly debunked then. Please stop making up rules.
Until you can find the word "entirely" anywhere in the rules for Exploded, please stop pretending it is there.
BR - not mixing them up, just that the rule, contrary to the made up rule that DR made up, makes no requirement to be entirely within. If you can measure to the model being inside the "footprint" of the vehicle, the model is inside - partially, but that is all that is asked. It is also partially outside, but again - no requirement is made about being outside, at all.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 23:38:17
Subject: Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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nosferatu1001 wrote:DR - you are making up the requirement to be ENTIRELY within. You made it up last time a question about partially / entirely was brought up, and you were thoroughly debunked then. Please stop making up rules.
Until you can find the word "entirely" anywhere in the rules for Exploded, please stop pretending it is there.
BR - not mixing them up, just that the rule, contrary to the made up rule that DR made up, makes no requirement to be entirely within. If you can measure to the model being inside the "footprint" of the vehicle, the model is inside - partially, but that is all that is asked. It is also partially outside, but again - no requirement is made about being outside, at all.
Please prove me wrong, you have yet to do so. the rules are clear, and I have not made any of these rules up.
The "area of the base (note: please learn what area means) needs to be where the vehicle used to be"
The area of a 1" base is 0.785 and that area needs to be where the vehicle used to be.
So 0.785 of the base needs to be where the vehicle used to be.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/14 23:57:31
Subject: Vehicle destroyed - Exploded
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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DeathReaper wrote:
The "area of the base (note: please learn what area means) needs to be where the vehicle used to be"
Where's this quote from?
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"I already told you son, that milk isn't for developing bones. It's for developing character." - C&H |
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