VOR 2.0 lives(kickstart project)

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**megatrons2nd**

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bioplazm/the-vor-20-project

Go here help us get it going have a part in the game.

Official quote

VOR was created to help the hardcore wargamer have fun, now the gamers can help VOR 2.0 get on its feet and rolling. Help us bring VOR: The Maelstrom back to the masses and get some exclusive rewards in the process!

The link below will take you to the "VOR 2.0" KICKSTARTER project page that was set-up to allow those interested in helping to get involved. Please feel free to share the link anywhere you think it would do some good as every person can help make this happen. Thanks!

www.kickstarter.com/projects/bioplazm/t ... 20-project

- Mike "Skuzzy" Nielsen
Bioplazm Games
http://www.bioplazm.com

**Prophecy07**

Woohoo! The Pharon will rise again!

**NecronLord3**

I haven't been able to stop Razorfang from shacking the Sabol case he is stored it. He can't wait to be unleashed once again!

**FoxPhoenix135**

Prophecy07 wrote:Woohoo! The Pharon will rise again!

Personally I didn't like the pharon, but purely from a mechanical viewpoint. Some things the playtesters determined to be overpowered were still let into the force book. Hopefully 2.0 addresses those. (The Purging was an "auto-take" option in my own pharon army). I liked the core forces best: the Union, Neo-soviets, Growlers, and Zykhee.

**adamsouza**

Out of my price range, but this is pure awesome.

PLEDGE $5,000 OR MORE
Wow ...well once I stopped crying tears of joy I'd work with you to make your very own planet, locale or special character (choose 1 of the 3) for inclusion in the VOR game universe. Plus if you ever make it to BC, we would even give you a killer barbeque feast in your honour in our back yard and spend an evening chatting all things VOR with you at the fire pit. Plus you would get 10% off all future VOR related purchases you make from us (Bioplazm) for life! (For your personal use only obviously).

**FoxPhoenix135**

I know, right? I'm just stoked that 40 bucks basically pre-orders you the book. As soon as I can spare it I'm pledging at least that much, probably more to ensure it really happens!

**NecronLord3**

Keep in mind no one will be charged until Jan. 14th and that is if and only if the full 25k is raised.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
Prophecy07 wrote:Woohoo! The Pharon will rise again!

Personally I didn't like the pharon, but purely from a mechanical viewpoint. Some things the playtesters determined to be overpowered were still let into the force book. Hopefully 2.0 addresses those. (The Purging was an "auto-take" option in my own pharon army). I liked the core forces best: the Union, Neo-soviets, Growlers, and Zykhee.

This was simply a result of FASA's rush job. The company put the Pharon book to print without collecting the majority(if any) of the playtesting data. The Pharon book was not directly produced by Mike Nielsen.

**Vertrucio**

Glad to see that Skuzzy is finally taking advantage of computer, and internet technology to get Vor 2.0 back.

However, I still don't have my hopes up about this. He disappears for months and surrounds himself with yes-men in the forums, then expects people to shell out for a non-existent product that's many, many years after its closure?

A more realistic goal is a much smaller amount than $25,000, start out with a pdf published book and work up from there. I know there's problems with the whole PDF market, but there's also problems with Vor on the whole. We need to see real tangible work done on this before we shell out, or even promise to shell out that kind of money.

**Pael**

Are there more details concerning the release? Should we only be expecting a book or does Mike have new miniatures lined up for release as well? I see this only being successful with a complete full out release of rules and minis minimum.

**Mattlov**

Pael wrote:Are there more details concerning the release? Should we only be expecting a book or does Mike have new miniatures lined up for release as well? I see this only being successful with a complete full out release of rules and minis minimum.

Iron Wind Metals still produces all of the old figures.

**Pael**

Exactly all of the OLD figures. I am not saying the old figures are not good but to generate new interest in newcomers as well as old vets(who aren't die hard fans) new miniatures are a must. Otherwise what is going to set it apart from the list of thousands of current mini rules that don't have their own defined minatures.

**FoxPhoenix135**

I'm sure there is a natural order to things. After he secures printing and production for the rulebook, he'll start looking into miniatures. Since he has to do all the funding himself, he needs the revenue from the rulebook before he can get started commissioning artists for new sculpts.

That is what all the funding is going to for the rulebook: commissioning new artists for the illustrations (and printing costs as well). For legal reasons he cannot re-use any of the illustrations from the previous edition, so he has to commission all-new illustrations. To get the kind of quality he is looking for, it is likely going to cost him a bit.

To answer your question about what will set it apart: Vor has always utilized a CUSTOM Force creation ruleset that allows players to scratch-build their own custom forces with whatever miniatures they have available. Want to see who would dominate in a PP vs. GW matchup? Just stat them out with Vor's custom creation rules! It gave a fair point value to all statistics, attacks, and abilities, so all armies would be created equal (if a little different). The only reason this never got off the ground is because in the original version of the game, that chapter was never fully developed. It was supposed to be added upon and released in a future supplement, but FASA dropped it before it came to fruition. Skuzzy claims that he kept the rules from that project and is putting them directly into the new version, which will make it worth it even without miniatures.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Taken from my other thread, which was locked because this one existed (i'm copypasting because I think it might have relevant info on VOR for those not familiar with the system):

I am very excited about this. On my blog, I have done some posts and battle-reports on the great game "Vor: The Maelstrom" that was published by the now-defunct FASA corporation (the guys who created Battletech). To make a long story short, when the company sold to another company, the rights for Vor went back to the IP's original creator. This creator moved to Canada and had some kids, so he has been quietly working on the title for several years now in his spare time. Now, he has the new edition of the rules fully written and is looking for funding to start commissioning artists for the artwork and printing services to get it launched again.

A website named "Kickstarter.com" has been a great resource for people looking to get some investment into an idea/product. The poster of a project offers incentives for "pledges", or promises to donate investment money to the project. If the project becomes fully funded in the time allotted, then you pay your portion of the pledge and the poster gets his/her funding. If the project is not fully funded, no money changes hands. That keeps the poster from being expected to still produce a product on partial funding. You can learn more in the website's FAQ section.

Here is the direct link to the Vor 2.0 Kickstarter project:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bioplazm/the-vor-20-project?ref=search

VOR GAME FEATURES:
A great setting- One of my favorites, this offers an alternative to the gothic space opera we are all familiar with. In Vor, the Earth in the near-future has been sucked into a celestial phenomenon known as the Maelstrom. An eater of worlds, the Maelstrom sucks its victims into itself, where it contains its own little universe. With all these planets being pulled in, some of them are bound to contain life. Bug, meet jar, start shaking! All the planets spiral towards certain doom at the Maelstrom's center, where the Maelstrom tears the planets apart with extreme prejudice. Therefore, all the sentient life gets desparate in their attempt to escape this alternate universe they've been sucked into.

Great writing- In the original version, they had some of Science Fiction's greatest writers work on the story. Bryan Nystul was one of my favorites.

Awesome Rules- Set in 28mm, we are familiar with the scale. The rules are intuitive, easy to learn, but hard to master. Kinda like that GW game we all play. However, this game doesn't suffer from "Codex Creep" in the same way. In fact, if you don't like any of the pre-printed races (you'd have to be crazy but whatever), you can MAKE YOUR OWN. That's right, this system has a CUSTOM FORCE CREATION RULES set that allows you to use any of your 28mm (or close to it) scale miniatures to make your very own custom army. Finally, a FAIR breakdown of what makes a points value!

Superb Artwork- The art in the original version was some of the most spectacular illustrations I had ever seen, to this day. Since the creator personally knew some of these guys, I expect more of the same in the next edition of the rulebook.

Kickin' Miniatures- Ral Partha used to make the miniatures, but they have since sold the molds to Iron Wind Metals LLC. ( http://www.ironwindmetals.com/catalog/index.php ) You can still get most of the original models through them, which were highly detailed and realistic. Great stuff!

I'm not in any way involved with the design or production of this product, I'm just a huge fan! So do yourself a favor and check out this project, maybe donate a few dollars. Check out the project information page on information about the incentives to pledging!

Thanks for reading,
--Foxphoenix135

**Agamemnon2**

Pael wrote:Exactly all of the OLD figures. I am not saying the old figures are not good but to generate new interest in newcomers as well as old vets(who aren't die hard fans) new miniatures are a must. Otherwise what is going to set it apart from the list of thousands of current mini rules that don't have their own defined minatures.

Be that as it may, launching a new ruleset and a miniatures line is a fool's errand, especially if there's no known sculpting talent involved in the project. The risk is just far too extreme, and it couldn't compare with GW for newcomers' attention anyway.

**FoxPhoenix135**

A lot of the sculptors that lead the previous incarnation are now head guys over at Privateer Press. Skuzzy knew a lot of them personally, so they might work something out. I think you guys are hardly in a position to judge the inner workings yet, don't you think?

Even without a new miniature line, the old ruleset was solid and the setting was well written. Not all of us are purely GW fanboys, and prefer a change from gothic space operas! I wouldn't be so quick to call it a fools errand, per se.

Besides, its not really a "New" ruleset, since it had a fairly established 1st edition during the short time between its creation and the sell-out to Wizkids.

**12thRonin**

Actually, it is exactly that with this approach. There is no business model or plan, just an appeal to emotion through nostagia and PBS style "You get this tote bag for a $100 donation". Well that's all well and good but if you're trying to raise serious capital, nobody is going to touch it with this approach. Couple that with a over saturated market for a back corner of the store game like what Vor will be and you will have alot of competition there.

Not only that, but you'll be going head to head with GW, Privateer, and Battlefront for market share. And the expectation is that the need is only $25,000 to get up and going is not realistic. That doesn't even cover a yearly salary of one person at any level, let alone other costs that will be involved.

**Balance**

12thRonin wrote:Actually, it is exactly that with this approach. There is no business model or plan, just an appeal to emotion through nostagia and PBS style "You get this tote bag for a $100 donation". Well that's all well and good but if you're trying to raise serious capital, nobody is going to touch it with this approach. Couple that with a over saturated market for a back corner of the store game like what Vor will be and you will have alot of competition there.

Not only that, but you'll be going head to head with GW, Privateer, and Battlefront for market share. And the expectation is that the need is only $25,000 to get up and going is not realistic. That doesn't even cover a yearly salary of one person at any level, let alone other costs that will be involved.

It's not a terrible idea for some niche products, though. I think the Delta Green guys did this for one of the recent books, and it helped make sure they could cover the print costs... But Delta Green books have a great reputation in the RPG world and have always been short run works.

**skrulnik**

Not to mention competing with Malifaux, Infinity, Spartan Games (Uncharted Seas, Firestorm Armada, Dystopian Wars), and others I can't think of.

**megatrons2nd**

12thRonin wrote:Actually, it is exactly that with this approach. There is no business model or plan, just an appeal to emotion through nostagia and PBS style "You get this tote bag for a $100 donation". Well that's all well and good but if you're trying to raise serious capital, nobody is going to touch it with this approach. Couple that with a over saturated market for a back corner of the store game like what Vor will be and you will have alot of competition there.

Not only that, but you'll be going head to head with GW, Privateer, and Battlefront for market share. And the expectation is that the need is only $25,000 to get up and going is not realistic. That doesn't even cover a yearly salary of one person at any level, let alone other costs that will be involved.

How do you know what was invested in the project prior to what is being asked? As a "nostalgia" game it is doing fairly well with people still playing several years after it's cancellation as well as a few tournaments. I've seen people playing it at GenCon and even some of the local mini-cons in the local area.

**Pael**

@ 12th Ronin I wouldn't under estimate "PBS style" look at the other projects on kickstarter that have been funded and are comparable in price as well as scope. Those projects don't even have the nostalgia factor backing them.

**FoxPhoenix135**

Beyond being a nostalgia game, it has a solid ruleset, if you took the time to look into it. Also, it is one of the only games I have ever seen that allows the creation of your very own army based on whatever models you want. Sure, it may never see tournament play, but ultimately it will fill a different niche of casual gaming. How can you be so certain it will fail? If what you are saying is true, then why would anybody bother trying to create new minature war-games, if they will have to compete with GW, PP, etc?

Also, he isn't covering the costs for a company, so why would he need to cover a salary? He was the primary writer of the previous version of the game (which was successful at the time, you seem to forget, it was just cut short by FASA selling to wizkids) and he has been working on it in his spare time from home, with a huge helping of volunteer work from forum members at www.bioplazm.com . His costs are only to commission artists for new illustrations, and for printing costs of his first limited run. Actually LOOK at his kickstarter page, and it clearly states what the funding is for.

**Melissia**

[edit: I read it as VDR, not VOR. Delete this.]

**12thRonin**

megatrons2nd wrote:
How do you know what was invested in the project prior to what is being asked? As a "nostalgia" game it is doing fairly well with people still playing several years after it's cancellation as well as a few tournaments. I've seen people playing it at GenCon and even some of the local mini-cons in the local area.

Because I'm looking at it from a business and investor point of view, not a gamer and he's been trying to get this going for about 5 or 6 years now. I'm taking that as a logical assumption on the realities of the business side coupled with the economy. If established companies in mainstream industries are having trouble with funding, a niche market for something that by the nature of it will struggle to recoup the investment.

To your second point, it may still be played but by how many people? Is the potential market big enough? What's in it for little Johnny to switch to a new game system?

Pael wrote:@ 12th Ronin I wouldn't under estimate "PBS style" look at the other projects on kickstarter that have been funded and are comparable in price as well as scope. Those projects don't even have the nostalgia factor backing them.

How many are still going 5 years later?

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
Beyond being a nostalgia game, it has a solid ruleset, if you took the time to look into it. Also, it is one of the only games I have ever seen that allows the creation of your very own army based on whatever models you want. Sure, it may never see tournament play, but ultimately it will fill a different niche of casual gaming. How can you be so certain it will fail? If what you are saying is true, then why would anybody bother trying to create new minature war-games, if they will have to compete with GW, PP, etc?

Also, he isn't covering the costs for a company, so why would he need to cover a salary? He was the primary writer of the previous version of the game (which was successful at the time, you seem to forget, it was just cut short by FASA selling to wizkids) and he has been working on it in his spare time from home, with a huge helping of volunteer work from forum members at www.bioplazm.com . His costs are only to commission artists for new illustrations, and for printing costs of his first limited run. Actually LOOK at his kickstarter page, and it clearly states what the funding is for.

Logical fallacy FTW. I played Vor back in the day and had a Union army for it as well as running my Space Marines under the creation rules. Shock Force also had a creation system and it's currently in the same place. Armies of Arcana also has a creation system and it was recently sold to a terrain publisher. This is actually a common thing in smaller scale things so unit creation isn't that much of a golden goose. You NEED miniatures sales for cash flow. There's not enough from just the sale of books.

As far as taking on the big boys, that's because they have an idea people will get behind and push. Roughly 10 years has passed and nobody has picked up the game. If it were such a commercial success, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I seem to recall that this was shopped to different publishers at different times. The problem is it's a sci-fi wargame that is another game in a widely populated market. There's not enough to set it apart commercially. One store in Houston stocked it out of about 10 stores at the time. That's not good market penetration for a city that size. All of them carried Battletech, Shadowrun, and Crimson Skies so we can go ahead dispel the myth you'll come up with that FASA just wasn't big here.

I have read the kickstarter page. I see how he plans to print a book and an emotional appeal to nostalgia. I see no business model or anything that shows he has a plan after that.

I'm not hating. I'm looking at this from the business and "why invest" side. I don't see the return. I see whatever investment I make becoming a really expensive rulebook.

**bbb**

As far as games with "create your own army" rules there was also Aetherverse. You can download those rules for free right now too. It also followed the trend of games that failed even though you can create your own armies.

http://www.aromaticgames.com/?p=18

**FoxPhoenix135**

12thRonin wrote:
megatrons2nd wrote:
How do you know what was invested in the project prior to what is being asked? As a "nostalgia" game it is doing fairly well with people still playing several years after it's cancellation as well as a few tournaments. I've seen people playing it at GenCon and even some of the local mini-cons in the local area.

Because I'm looking at it from a business and investor point of view, not a gamer and he's been trying to get this going for about 5 or 6 years now. I'm taking that as a logical assumption on the realities of the business side coupled with the economy. If established companies in mainstream industries are having trouble with funding, a niche market for something that by the nature of it will struggle to recoup the investment.

To your second point, it may still be played but by how many people? Is the potential market big enough? What's in it for little Johnny to switch to a new game system?

Pael wrote:@ 12th Ronin I wouldn't under estimate "PBS style" look at the other projects on kickstarter that have been funded and are comparable in price as well as scope. Those projects don't even have the nostalgia factor backing them.

How many are still going 5 years later?

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
Beyond being a nostalgia game, it has a solid ruleset, if you took the time to look into it. Also, it is one of the only games I have ever seen that allows the creation of your very own army based on whatever models you want. Sure, it may never see tournament play, but ultimately it will fill a different niche of casual gaming. How can you be so certain it will fail? If what you are saying is true, then why would anybody bother trying to create new minature war-games, if they will have to compete with GW, PP, etc?

Also, he isn't covering the costs for a company, so why would he need to cover a salary? He was the primary writer of the previous version of the game (which was successful at the time, you seem to forget, it was just cut short by FASA selling to wizkids) and he has been working on it in his spare time from home, with a huge helping of volunteer work from forum members at www.bioplazm.com . His costs are only to commission artists for new illustrations, and for printing costs of his first limited run. Actually LOOK at his kickstarter page, and it clearly states what the funding is for.

Logical fallacy FTW. I played Vor back in the day and had a Union army for it as well as running my Space Marines under the creation rules. Shock Force also had a creation system and it's currently in the same place. Armies of Arcana also has a creation system and it was recently sold to a terrain publisher. This is actually a common thing in smaller scale things so unit creation isn't that much of a golden goose. You NEED miniatures sales for cash flow. There's not enough from just the sale of books.

As far as taking on the big boys, that's because they have an idea people will get behind and push. Roughly 10 years has passed and nobody has picked up the game. If it were such a commercial success, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I seem to recall that this was shopped to different publishers at different times. The problem is it's a sci-fi wargame that is another game in a widely populated market. There's not enough to set it apart commercially. One store in Houston stocked it out of about 10 stores at the time. That's not good market penetration for a city that size. All of them carried Battletech, Shadowrun, and Crimson Skies so we can go ahead dispel the myth you'll come up with that FASA just wasn't big here.

I have read the kickstarter page. I see how he plans to print a book and an emotional appeal to nostalgia. I see no business model or anything that shows he has a plan after that.

I'm not hating. I'm looking at this from the business and "why invest" side. I don't see the return. I see whatever investment I make becoming a really expensive rulebook.

If you are not going to look at it as a gamer, then that is why you don't see the return. And if you had read the kickstarter page like you claim to, you would see that any additional funding beyond the cost of the rulebook would go into starting concepts for the miniature line. A lot of good artists have already voiced their support, so what is the problem? Don't invest then, I don't really care. I do care however that you continue to preach what a bad idea it is for him to "take on the big boys" when they really are not even competing in that way. Do you think he really cares if his rulebook becomes bigger than 40k? Do you think he expects it to even compete on that level? Most definitely not on both accounts, I'm sure. The only fallacy I see here is you are continuing to play the devil's advocate here without doing your research first.

Kickstarter is not an investment firm, its a community project to help people turn their ideas into reality. Project creators offer incentives for pledges, not a promise of market share. That's like saying you wouldn't donate to Salvation Army because you don't see the return. Kinda silly really.

And actually, he has only been ACTIVELY trying to get the game going since around 2008... something called real life and parenthood got in the way. Maybe you don't understand that, but having 2 kids under 4 myself I sure as hell do. So it took him a year or two to re-write parts of the rulebook, talk to artists, find out about kickstarter, etc. Who cares? He's trying to get it going now, because enough of us asked him what it would take to see it.

Furthermore, if you looked at the page as you claim, you'd see that a pledge of 40 dollars would get you a rulebook. That's an expensive investment? Really? After bending over for GW's prices, I would think you could see the value in that. And who even mentioned Market Share? He's doing this out of his house, for crying out loud. He doesn't own a huge company, its just him, and we're ok with that because he produces quality work.

I really don't get where you're coming from. If you see it only as "Investing" then why don't you hang out on E-trader then? Why even bother looking into this thread? This thread is for people who enjoy playing wargames, not people looking for the next penny-stock.

You think of this as a new project: its not. It is a revival of a previously successful game. They held its niche with 40k just fine back in the heydey of the early millennium, so I don't see where you are going with this.

**plastictrees**

You're getting very angry about a pretty logical assessment of this games chances. Even as a gamer I'm not going to sink money into something I think will likely wither away again unless everyone I game with regularly is going to play it.

As someone who bought the VOR boxed game I'm pretty comfortable saying that it was never much competition to 40k. I'm not sure why you'd even bring that up.

If you just want to chat happily about VOR, there's probably better places for that.

**FoxPhoenix135**

Game's chances at what? That is what I'm talking about. Who ever said that Vor WANTED to compete with 40k or PP? I'm saying it used to do fine in its niche of the market, when 40k was going as strong as it is now.

Sink money? 40 bucks is sinking money? That's only a few bucks more than the MSRP of a SINGLE CODEX in 40k.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
FYI, minimum pledge is a single dollar.We're not asking for multi-thousand-dollar investments, just donations. That's all this is. Help us fanboys get our game back. There's no reason for all the mudslinging.

40 dollars gets you signed copy that contains everything you need to play except the minatures and dice. Why is that a bad thing? The game was awesome, back in the day. I'm sure with age its only gotten better, as he listened to the community (www.bioplazm.com) and got input for Vor 2.0.

This is only a game by gamers, for gamers, and it really is a good one worth looking into. Not as an investment opportunity, but as a chance to help a small niche of people really happy. Who knows? It could grow. Will it take on 40k? Very likely not. But it could, if enough players threw their support in. Let's face it, GW is starting to rise prices again, and not all of us can afford it. Don't you get sick of needing to buy 6+ kits that cost 60 bucks apiece to be even slightly competitive? 40k is quickly becoming too expensive, especially for those of us who have run into real life complications such as children, the poor economy, unemployment, or all of the above. This game is by a gamer and for gamers, made to play with whatever you got! Why is that a bad thing? He just wants to make it look good, and be a piece of art as much as a game rule book. He wants to kickstart the miniature line again. They had some awesome concepts and ideas, and I loved the game then, as I do now. 40k is great and all, but don't you get a little tired of the perpetual gray area of morality you find yourself in when you play the game? Don't you get tired of all the skulls and flames? Sometimes its like I'm reliving the 80's.

The setting was different, the art was great, and the writing was fantastic. I don't believe bringing that back is bad, or a poor business choice. We're at 4.5k out of 25k needed to commission the artists, print the book, and maybe even start working on the miniature line.

**CT GAMER**

We get if Fox: You really love VOr!!!

(And I'll admit it was a fun game)

That being said this is Dakka Dakka...

'Nuff said

**FoxPhoenix135**

Alright... I'll quit lol. Can't blame a guy for trying.

**CT GAMER**

I do wish Skuzzy luck getting this off the ground, it was a cool game, and if ends up with new miniatures and official rulebook I will certainly be tempted to revisit it.

That being said Dakka is programmed to suck at the teat of GW so you can't really expect a giant rush to praise/support something like this...

**FoxPhoenix135**

Dakka is programmed to suck at the teat of GW so you can't really expect a giant rush to praise/support something like this...