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Ok, so Duke Sliscus has the rule that forces him to deploy with a unit of trueborn or warriors after giving them the 3+ poison shooting.

The question is, how does the Duke deploy when there are no trueborn or warriors in the army?

Well, he has no selection rules requiring a unit of Trueborn or Warriors to be present in the army for him to be taken. If you look at the Court of the Archon, and other similar units in other codices, GW definitely has a clear way to express that kind of concept, which they didn't in the Duke's case. So it appears that you can take him in an army lacking Trueborn or Warriors.

If there are none of those units, it would seem that you could then deploy him wherever you like. You'd just lose out on his "The Serpent's Venom" special rule.

"Pick unit X or Y, ZZZ must be deployed with them." if you can't pick a unit you can't legally deploy him in my opinion.


@Mannahnin: With "The Court of the Archon" That's not really a vaild example as there's no condition for an Archon to be deployed with them or the like, one may take a court per Archon, that's it.

I'd say you couldnt deploy him either, simply if you must do it a certain way i dont see the option

Has to be deployed with trueborn/warriors
No trueborn/warriors on field
Duke has no unit to be deployed with
Duke cannot be deployed to kick ass nor chew bubble gum


Also. Sup D. didnt know you dakka'd

1) During your deployment phase you deploy out units.
2) You deploy the duke.
3) If you have a Trueborn or Kabalite unit, the Duke must be deployed with one of these units.
4) If you do not have either of those listed units, you can deploy the Duke as a normal IC as per the IC rules. The Duke has no penalty for not having a unit on the field that is required to get the Serpent's Venom special rule.

The restriction is there so you cannot give the Serpents Venom rule thingy to non Kabalite units. Nothing prevents him from being deployed as normal if there none of the units present.

The duke has instructions for deploying him, if you can't follow the instructions you can't deploy him. To say "you can deploy the Duke as a normal IC as per the IC rules." is to create a houserule.

Also I feel this

BuFFo wrote:
The restriction is there so you cannot give the Serpents Venom rule thingy to non Kabalite units.

is a huge fallacy you've made to support what I feel is an erroneous interpretation of the rules. There's nothing to stop you, in turn unattaching him from the squad and attaching him to another - he is after all an independant character - they won't benifit from his upgrade then, but the warriiors he'd orginally been with still would. As has been said, his rules from deployment stop him from being deployed without a unit of warriors, as, he must be deployed with one. QED

The Duke has no Deployment rules. What he does have is a special rule that gives an upgrade for a unit. If the duke cannot be deployed with this unit, he just cannot give this special rule to another unit, like wyches.

The restriction is for the special rule, not deployment.

This is just how i see the rule as. I am not going to sit here and call other interpretations wrong, and I won't repeat myself 50 times over.

However you want to play the rules by, more power to you!

BuFFo wrote:The Duke has no Deployment rules. What he does have is a special rule that gives an upgrade for a unit.
The restriction is for the special rule, not deployment.

So we're looking at the same section.
And you're saying "..Venom: Pick a unit of Kabalite warriors or a unit of Kabalite Trueborn at the beginning of the game. Sliscus must be deployed with this unit." page 51.
Isn't a rule for deployment?, and doesn't place a restriction on his deployment? That's just whacked man, what do you have to support this 'you deploy him however you want' when the rules clearly have these restrictions, I just don't understand how you're ignoring, for want of a better word, what the text on the page says. The fact that then "All splinter weapons in that unit are upgraded to poisoned (3+ )" is the next sentence has no bearing on his deployment restrictions, the first bit of the rule.

I can't see how you can take this as an army selection restriction, when nothing in the Duke's rules says "You may only select this character if you have a unit of Trueborn or Warriors in your army", and there is nothing in the Trueborn or Warrior entries saying "If you select this unit, you may also select Duke Sliscus".

Mannahnin wrote:I can't see how you can take this as an army selection restriction, when nothing in the Duke's rules says "You may only select this character if you have a unit of Trueborn or Warriors in your army", and there is nothing in the Trueborn or Warrior entries saying "If you select this unit, you may also select Duke Sliscus".

It's not an explicit army list restriction, but it achieves the same thing if you take it literally. If he has to deploy with a given unit, you would have to take that unit in order to use him.

However, I would be reluctant to force the issue, personally. If the rules for this game were intended to be as tightly read as, say, a CCG, then the fact that the 'pick a unit and deploy with them' part is not listed as being optional would force you to do it. The only way you would be able to take the Duke without breaking a rule would be to ensure that you had the appropriate unit for him to deploy with. Being able to choose not to deploy with that unit would require a 'if you have any of these units on the table' clause in the rule.

This being Warhammer 40K, I would be more inclined to accept that the 'if you have any' clause is probably meant to be assumed.


So, as far as I can see, RAW calls for having an appropriate unit or not using the Duke... but RAI is probably for the deployment rule to be an option rather than a requirement, and that's the way I would be inclined to play it until they FAQ it. YMMV.

As insaniak explained, by sticking to 'not breaking any rule' many other rules issues are solved. So to apply it to the duke, one has a rule, to not break that rule you must deploy in a certain fashion, the fact that you must include a certain selection in your army is moot, as if you want the candy - pay the price.

Personally, I feel if it was intended for the duke to be able to deploy with anyone, his rule would have been 'any unit of warriors joined by the Duke'. Not a permanent buff that required him to be deployed with some guys.

If we're talking intent, I think the wording is meant to limit the benefit to one unit, chosen at deployment. "Any unit joined by the Duke" would allow him to switch it up mid-game.

But then they could have just said "pcik a unit of xx, that unit is buffed" and not have brought his joining the unit into it.

If you dont have a warrior / trueborn unit you cannot fulfill the first requirement - to pick a unit - and therefore you dont get to the restriction section.

I agree with Chris. If the Duke is deployed not with one of the two types of units that he 'must' be deployed with that would be breaking a rule, and therefore cannot be done.

So if you were to field him in an army without said choices you would not be able to deploy the Duke.

The rule says to pick a unit of KW or KT before it restricts his deployment. If you can't choose, the rest of the rule does not get applied. Seems to me that one of the reasons to field him is this rule but you can deploy him normally if no KW or KT are in the army.

Homer

Buffo has a vested interest in this since it applies to his "45 Games of DE according to Buffo's rules" so take what he says with a mountain of salt.

Until someone can get around,

"Sliscus must be deployed with this unit."

Which isn't a condition of the unit he joins, but how he must be deployed, then you cannot use the Duke without the required unit.

Homer S wrote:The rule says to pick a unit of KW or KT before it restricts his deployment. If you can't choose, the rest of the rule does not get applied. Seems to me that one of the reasons to field him is this rule but you can deploy him normally if no KW or KT are in the army.

Homer

But it does not say you may pick. It simply tells you to pick a unit, if you cannot pick one you are breaking the rule. You are being told to pick a unit, and being told you must deploy him with that unit.

Brother Ramses wrote:Buffo has a vested interest in this since it applies to his "45 Games of DE according to Buffo's rules" so take what he says with a mountain of salt.

There's no call for that. Any of us could have a "vested interest" in this, as we're all potentially DE players or opponents. Except that it's just a darn game of toy soldiers. Buffo has put a bunch of work into making battle reports and sharing them (and his enthusiam) with the community. Opining that his opinion is worth less because of his project, or because you disagree with him, is nonsensical and rude.

Melchiour wrote:But it does not say you may pick. It simply tells you to pick a unit, if you cannot pick one you are breaking the rule. You are being told to pick a unit, and being told you must deploy him with that unit.

Hmmm, I might have to give you that. If that is the intent, shouldn't it say in one of those little call out boxes like Master Haemonculus that KW or KT become 1+ units when taking Sliscus?

Homer

Let me break down Serpent's Venom in a bit more detail, because I failed to do a good job of it previously. Here is how you play the rule, step be step, during deployment.

"Pick a unit of kabalite Warriors or a unit of Kabalite Trueborn at the beginning of the game"

Trueborn is present - I have to pick the Trueborn as this is not an option.
No Valid unit is present - I obviously cannot pick a unit, so a unit is simply not picked. Serpent's Venom is no longer used.

"Sliscus must be deployed with this unit"

Trueborne is present - Independent Character rules for joining a unit are superseded by Serpent's Venom and Sliscus must join the Trueborn.
No valid unit is present - Since you never picked a unit from step one to nominate as the forced deployed unit, Sliscus just enters the game with normal Independent Character rules. Sliscus cannot 'must deployed with THIS unit" because there was never a unit TO pick in the first place. To satisfy the clause "This unit" you needed to be able to PICK the unit, and you couldn't.

The only penalty is not being able to give the Serpent's Venom to a non Kabalite unit. This is not a Deployment rule to field the Duke per se, but rather a special rule that involves deployment to be able to give another unit a special rule as well.

Now, if the Serpent's Venom said something like this "Sliscus cannot be included in an army without a unit of X or Y" or "Sliscus cannot be deployed unless you have unit X or Y" then yeah, he would need the unit just to be fielded.

And about my 45 games of Dark Eldar. I obviously do it for the money! Swimming in it!

BuFFo wrote:3) If you have a Trueborn or Kabalite unit, the Duke must be deployed with one of these units.

Emphasis mine. The rule is that the duke must be deployed in a unit of trueborn/warriors. Not if you have them.

If you don't have a unit of trueborn/warriors that the duke must deploy in, then your list is illegal.

I read it that deploying the Duke with the Trueborn or Kabalite unit is only mandatory if you want to give that unit the Serpent's venom ability.

If you don't have either of the two unit types, you deploy the Duke as normal but just don't gain the benefits of that particular special rule anywhere in your army.

I suspect (and hope) that Buffo's interpretation may be the writer's intent.

But I have to concede that I think Yak's right. The Duke's rules give you a clear instruction, and they don't make it conditional. :(

I hope it gets FAQd.

Claiming that just because the rule's condition isn't possible means that it becomes optional invites any number of abuses.

Should we start claiming that a Tyranid army which has lost its synapse creatures is now immune to Instinctive Behavior? That Eldar Wraithlords and Wraithguard in an army without warlocks get to ignore Wraithsight?

Well, darn. Just take a unit of Warriors or Trueborn if you're taking Sliscus. I mean, it's not like those two options suck or anything.

Homer S wrote:The rule says to pick a unit of KW or KT before it restricts his deployment. If you can't choose, the rest of the rule does not get applied.

The problem is, if you can't pick, you're left with a rule that has to apply that you can not resolve, as you are not given an option. Picking a unit is presented as a requirement, not a choice. So if you have no applicable unit to choose, you're left in a rules limbo, as there is no way provided by the rules to resolve the situation.

But, as I said before, I doubt it's meant to work that way. Frankly, I doubt the writer even considered the idea that players would want to field the Duke without having the appropriate unit there for him to join, since it would defy the point of him having the special rule in the first place.

Insaniak wrote:But, as I said before, I doubt it's meant to work that way. Frankly, I doubt the writer even considered the idea that players would want to field the Duke without having the appropriate unit there for him to join, since it would defy the point of him having the special rule in the first place.

Or, you want to field him in a Cult list with Wyches because he helps out wyches with his drug rule. Why didn't Lelith or a Succubus get the rule for an additional drug roll then?

I find it odd he has a rule which is meant to help out Wych Units, but he cannot be deployed with said army?

Just an observation.

Rules limbo = House rule.

Homer