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I am putting together a 2,000 point tournament Chaos army and am in a bit of a quandary as to my last two units in HS.

For heavy support I have 1 unit of 3 Oblits that I am for sure taking.

For the other two slots, I keep going back and forth on what I want to take.

I am debating between the following:

2 Defilers
Defiler/Vindie
Vindie/Pred (auto cannon/l.cannon)
Pred/Defiler

In my list I have three dedicated, mobile anti tank units in addition to the oblits, so I am not overly concerned with taking more Oblits. By cutting back to armor I save points but can pack in comparable fire power on a platform that is immune to small arms fire.

The reason I am looking to take the above listed units is because with my two lash units in HQ, I can clump enemy units together and drop some pie on them.

Defilers offer long range, Medium anti-tank, excellent anti-infantry (that twin-linked heavy flamer can be so useful) and they can fleet and assault which can be game changing. They can neutralize Blood Crushers and similar units, and are a serious threat to the MSU style infantry units that a lot of tournament lists take which lack Power Fists. You must obviously keep them away from MCs, Nobs, etc. but I am assuming that is a given. I am leaning towards two Defilers for their versatility. Also, my Friend Dave_Fay, the top ranked Chaos player in the country, uses two in his list and I have seen how effective they can be.

Vindies with possession are tough nuts to crack and have strong anti-tank, excellent anti-infantry but are vulnerable to assault and have short range. However, they have the magic strength 10 which is great for ID, ignoring FNP and popping AV14. The defiler/vindie combo is my next choice.

Preds are cheap, offer excellent long ranged anti-tank but are essentially immobile, and vulnerable to assault. However, Chaos really struggles against MSU shooty armies and having a cheap platfrom from which to pop rhinos, chimeras, speeders, raiders, venoms, etc. can be crucial to winning a tournament.

So what I am looking for here is some solid, rational arguments for one over the other. Please don't comment if you are just going to say the name of a unit without a logical explanation. If you play Chaos in tournaments, your advice would be especially welcome. Also, if anyone has a strong argument for any other combo, please speak up as I am all ears. I have been strongly considering Havocs as well.

I vote dual Defilers. It would honestly depend on the rest of your list but I'm a huge walker fan if only to neutralize players like me that bring BC's and the like. Plus the lashing into a perfect, out of cover, template situation is just to good.

Second choice would be the vindi but I don't see that as being as useful. Reason being that against it's best targets it's in charge range the next turn (TWC). At least a Defiler MIGHT survive and kill a few TWC. No such luck with a vindi.

Mileage may vary. But be warned my friend, Daemons are a coming this year Unless I really like GK's

Bring it son!

My Chaos list is shaping up nicely. Not the usual lash prince/oblit. PM spam, either. I have a really wide variety of units that I think will add a lot of versatility and strength to the list.

I agree. Walkers are just too useful in too many situations. I have had my bacon saved by a walked getting into assault many a time.

Plus, you don't see many termies these days. So I don't run into many 2+ lists at tournaments. However, the Hero Hammer TWC SW army is brutal and they do have a lot of 2+ in there. But like you said, with the Vindie you get one shot then you are toast. At least the defiler can fight back and swing before the hammers and fists in the TWC deathstar. I guess you'd really just have to hope for lash to get through the WTTs and then use the Oblits to plasma their faces off.

My bugs are just about done, too. I am bringing them out to the BSB to see how they play and to a few local tournaments. I just worry with the amount of DE running around. They butt rape bugs so badly, it is a terrible match up.

Good for you Reece. I've got a RTT here at the end of January and I'm hoping to get out to another event or two before adepticon to polish the rust off. I've just also got to get stuff painted. Ordered a bunch of army painter sprays and some dark shader to speed it up

Good to see a different type of chaos army. I was trying to figure out one with 20 termies in it but just couldn't make it work like I wanted it to. I'm to afraid of PBS squads making my awesome termies run like girls.....Hmm....20 termies, 2 defilers, 3 troops w/lash princes might just work...damn you Reece!!!!

Haha, sorry to give you new ideas!

I know, I was looking at a 20-30 termie list, too, but the units is too pricey to not be fearless. One PBS, some broodlords, a bad tank shock roll, etc. and it is bye-bye birdie. Too big of a risk.

I have been playing a lot lately so I feel ready for the big show. Adpeticon will be a blast! I think my Wolves are going to make a good run of it in the Championships! And our team will kick some booty in the TT I am sure. We have too much Dakka power to fail! Haha, we even have a MOD for crying out loud!

I vote dual Defilers. Their Anti-infantry is absolutely brutal - you'll eliminate a squad of any non-MEQ with the TL HF, the Battlecannon is great for some light AT work, and its fleet/demonic possesion make it brutal in assault and a pain to crack. If it was only AV13 at the front...

Anyway, I fought Dave today and got stomped, he had a Predator Annihilator and two Defilers. And about a million Plague Marines.

Yeah, Dave's list is unconventional but isn't it good? I am using Oblits instead of a Pred as they are more flexible.

I think dual defilers it will be. I think the increased versatility they provide will really count for a lot. I may switch one unit to plasma to compensate for the lack of ap2.

Unconventional, definitely. But I'm never going to smirk at someone who takes a chaos lord (especially with MoN, bike, Nurgle Daemon Weapon) anymore. Good lord.

Right?!

That stupid lord brings the ass whipping! So many people talk trash on Chaos lords, and for good reason in general, but that set up Dave runs is nasty. Doubly nasty considering so many people don't use power fists in their squads anymore, either.

Yeah. I was trying out a hybrid IG list, mostly mech, with a AC HWT and a 31-man power blob. His T6 DP and T6 bike lord got to me. Why can't IG ever get PF's.....

I took out the PM squad, though, and landed 2 wounds on the lord.

Plenty of units become very good when the opponent doesn't have the units that make them only ok. And of course a good general with practice with the army can (mostly) make sure they don't end up in the wrong situation with those units.

If you want to run dual lash, twin defilers bring a ton to the table. That 2D6 pick the highest penetration really helps make up for the str 8 against vehicles too. Vindicators always seem great on paper, but never really worked for me...too easy to assault, too easy for too many armies to get side shots at range unless I spent an inordinate amount of work hiding that. Don't bring them just to shoot pie plates at one unit (TWC with 4 Wolf Lords) that you may not encounter anyway). I will say that that I don't think the Defilers walker status will save them against that unit anyway, but their 72 inch range will, and they'll at least be able to get in a few swings before going down.

My thoughts exactly. I was leaning towards dual defilers and all of this sound advice confirms that.

That is the key though, isn't it? Getting the units you need where you need them and avoiding the counter units. That is the mark of a good player.

Are you going to the Sprue Posse GT, Lambadomy?

@Gavo
Don't feel bad if Dave beat you, he is seriously one of the top 3 best players I have ever met. Very skilled, and a nice guy to boot.

Personally I say a defiler and ml havocs to go with your 3 oblits. ML havocs outgun all other csm hs choices on a point for point basis against transports and mc, but are very weak in cc. If a defiler and the oblits are nearby or in/behind the same piece of cover assault units have to go through them to get to the havocs. Also a standard gw building can hold havos on the top floor, oblits on the bottom, and the defiler can hid behind it or shoot over the roof if its a 1 floor building.

I will also have to agree with the use of two Defilers in your list, I use 3 in lists that are as low as 1250 pts. What they offer to is amazing versatility to the Chaos player that the Vindie or the Predator really cannot compete with in the overall possibilities of the game.

Some examples;
1. With Fleet and Demonic Possession, assaults can be game changing. Neither of the other choices can assist if you need it.
2. The amount of weapons on the Defiler allows you to not worry about a weapon destroyed result.
3. Load out can really be personalized to fit your list (All DCCW’s, DCCW/AC those are my favorites).
4. 72”x 2 shots range can dominant a table.

What I suggest is to play test the setups you are interested in. See what works for you and roll with it. Good luck.

*I see that lambadomy already throughout similar thoughts.

@Reecius: I'm totally now feeling bad that he beat me, I knew it would happen, he's what, ranked in the top 15 in the country? The game taught me a lot, though. Overall a great game.

@Schadenfreude
Yeah, I was considering ML havocs or a.cannon havos as for 155 points that is not at all a bad choice and as you said, they pack in 4 heavy weapons whereas armor only get 1 to 3. I will have to try them out as they may be a solid choice.

@Gent
You and lambadomy basically said what I was thinking. It's the ability to cross the board quickly and assault that really sways me towards Defilers. My main tournament army is Wolves with Dreads for counter assault and the ability to shoot at range and get into combat makes them so useful. There are some things they can't take in HtH, but they are good enough to get my by against most armies.

@Gavo
Dave was #1 for 4 months and is still the top Chaos player. He is super good and playing him is always a learning experience.

I vote for the Predators. Chaos can get anti-infantry elsewhere in their army, while ranged suppression becomes an issue as points scale up...Chaos can only bring so many guns to deal with mass mech.

Predwise, Autolas with Havoc btw...You're pricier than the loyalist version but you're going to have to suck it up...

Reecius: Yes, I am signed up for the Sprue Posse Grand Prix. Gotta get cracking painting...ugh.

I have to admit that I've never tried chaos predators, but I have played against them and they can be effective. I am always biased towards units that are unique to a codex so Defilers and oblits get my love and I overlook predators. I think that the synergy between the defilers and the lash really put them over the top, but Defilers can be disappointing. Armor 12, WS 3 and a hull that is pretty rough to ever really say is 50% obscured on some tournament tables can be strikes against them.

Just wanted to add my vote for 2 defilers. Lashing someone off an objective is nice, but following it by an assault to keep them off it is even better. I run my defilers alongside my rhino wall. When the enemy gets within melta range, they can't afford to ignore the defilers and go after my transports, so that gives my scoring and more deadly troops units more opportunity.

Reecius, as we talked about before, the only reservation I have with the two defilers in a non 'zilla list is their shear size. They can't really hide behind anything. While that is a good thing for drawing LOS for their battlecannons, it's bad when everything else draws LOS to them.

In the scenario with the TWC unit/army, they will most likely have long fangs that will shred the defilers before they even get a chance to do anything, since they won't be able to hide and they are only AV12. (Plus, the S8 battlecannon won't even kill a TWC dude outright, and the TWC/wolf player will make sure you never get a chance to CC with them.)

Thinking about it more, I don't really think the vindicator and pred are all that great choices either. I think you might bet the best bang for your buck running more obliterators...

It's all in how you use them. If the long fangs are in a good position in cover, a quick flyby with lash could push them behind it out of LOS. Likewise, opening shots from the battle cannon or the obliterators could kill the long fangs.

And as always, if you're running a mechanized army and they have long fangs shooting at your defilers, that's fewer shots directed at your rhinos.

That is also what smoke launchers are for - defilers have them.

And if cover is that important, model your defilers low to the ground. The kit allows for it, and honestly so do the rules.

Defilers being tall means they can see over buildings, and their gun is mounted very high. A 1 story building will give a defiler cover and clear los to enemy units. There is almost always 1 good spot to give a defiler cover and a good firing location.

I am having this exact debate in my army. except i already have 1 defiler and am pretty sure my 2nd choice will be a autolass pred cause i have no other ap 2 or lower, but the 3rd option i cant decide between 2 oblitorators or a termcide squad of 3 with 2 chainfists (cause i have had a lot of trouble with AV 14) and a heavy flamer. Although im tempted to take a second defiler after hearing about the lashing them into a tight group. Hmm i need more anti tank for my CC KB army though not more anti infantry :/

Dual defilers. But don't run that TL HF. Remember if you fire ordnance you cannot fire anything else. Since the battle cannon is mandatory I just give them extra CCW for extra attacks.

actually a defiler can move and use its battle cannon and another weapon, i have already confirmed this with the good folks at GW

I believe Shas'o Dorian is correct. The BGB states that walkers may move and fire like stationary vehicles, but in the vehicles shooting section it states that firing ordnance precludes the firing of any other weapons, even defensive.

I could be wrong on that count if it has been FAQ'd or some such. But by RAW in the BGB it is clear to me that they cannot.

The Auto/las pred is a great unit, especially for 130 points. 2 las cannons and an auto cannon on an AV13 chassis is no slouch. It's just their immobility and vulnerability to assault that is worrisome.

The other thing with dual lash/defiler combos is that you can pull a unit out of cover, towards you and then with a fleeting defiler effectively charge a unit first turn. That can be game changing. Pull some Fangs out of their building and then lash them again, FoF a Defiler 13" to 18" and wipe them. Combos like that open up a lot of flexibility that you don't have with static tanks.

Honestly, I will have to try out several combos and see which I like best. That is going to be the best way to do it, although I am still leaning towards dual defilers.

sadly i don't run my defilers in melee i keep them as far back as i can then move them a bit closer later in the game. My defiler is my only effective ranged unit. I had 2 squads of infiltrating chosen, but every game i run them they haven't killed anything or killed very little like 40 under points. Since idont have the points to give them rhinos to outflank im replacing them with a autolass pred and something else, either the termicides or a heavy support unit i just need something that can take down heavy tanks or high toughness mobile turbo boosters (not always vehicles). I like the termicides because it gives me a good option vs AV14 which i dont have yet, and afterward the 3 terms can go into melee which my army should be in as well by then

Reecius wrote:The Auto/las pred is a great unit, especially for 130 points. 2 las cannons and an auto cannon on an AV13 chassis is no slouch. It's just their immobility and vulnerability to assault that is worrisome..

If the opponent has gotten past the rest of your army to assault the Preds, chances are you've already lost anyway.

@Magic
True, but that doe snot account for deepstrikers, outflankers, wolf scouts, or snikrot type units. My missile wolves use Dreads as additional fire platforms and as counter assault and they work great in that role. However, smart deployment does help to minimize the risk that these types of units pose.

@Zhangbob
I envision using defilers as I do in my wolf list, primarily as a shooting unit that can assault if needs be. Their flexibility is what appeals to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Zhangbob
One more thing, stick those chosen in a Rhino, outflank them and watch gak blow up. Brilliant unit. Take 5, give them 4 meltas and you have an awesome anti-tank unit.

MagicJuggler wrote:

Reecius wrote:The Auto/las pred is a great unit, especially for 130 points. 2 las cannons and an auto cannon on an AV13 chassis is no slouch. It's just their immobility and vulnerability to assault that is worrisome..

If the opponent has gotten past the rest of your army to assault the Preds, chances are you've already lost anyway.

Between anything with a scout move or outflank it is really easy to take out a pred. 5 out flanking scouts with krak grenades would do it. The dakka pred also contributes nothing to the defense of the oblits. A defiler would protect oblits from outflanking genestealers, and oblits can help protect a defiler against wolf scouts with a melta gun.