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Does a foe get a cover save against them, or not? I'd say NO, since they auto-hit, BS skill is NOT used in the attack, they do not cause wounds, and the description states the critters run up to the nearest vehicle and detonate. A lot of effects that take place in the shooting phase are NOT shooting attacks. Last tourney, a guy getting hit by them said they were a shooting attack and so a cover save was allowed.

Interesting question, I would be inclined to allow cover saves against them since they are used in the shooting phase and if they 'auto hit' it implies it is a form of shooting. Draw LoS to the squad releasing the squigs of course.

Boss Grabnutz wrote:I'd say NO, since they auto-hit, BS skill is NOT used in the attack, they do not cause wounds, and the description states the critters run up to the nearest vehicle and detonate.

It's actually a hit on 2+ with 1 hitting a friendly vehicle. It has a range. Causing wounds is not a factor (vehicles use cover saves against glanging/penetrating hits). And fluff is not rules.

While cover saves are detailed in the shooting section the rules specifically mention if something disallows them, like close combat and template weapons. The squig causes a hit in the shooting phase and says nothing about cover saves. Sorry, I'd have to allow a cover save even if I have an ork army myself.

I know a 1 hits your own vehicle, but its not a to hit roll like a normal weapon. They automatically hit SOMEONE, foe or friend, that is the right type and within range. range has no bearing on if they strike the target due to the dice roll or allow a cover save, so i left the range out of the debate.

Yet it is still an attack made in the shooting phase, has a firing "model" (the one with the bomb squig) and doesnt say it doesnt allow cover saves, so it does.

Just to clarify on what Nos said, while a tank busta must be selected to release a bomb squig, he does not have a bomb squig.

The bomb squigs are wargear for the squad, not for a particular model.

Yes I know they are not a 'real' model. as for Nos, there are attacks in the shooting phase that are NOT shooting attacks. Just because something gets 'fired off' in the shooting phase does not mean you get a cover save. Squigs are clsoe in mechanics to psyker powers that a bolter.

Which psychic shooting attacks do you not get cover saves from?

Bomb squigs only hit vehicles. Vehicles don't get cover saves, only obscured. A bomb squig does not need to draw line of site, so the vehicle could never be obscured.

Heffling wrote:Bomb squigs only hit vehicles. Vehicles don't get cover saves, only obscured. A bomb squig does not need to draw line of site, so the vehicle could never be obscured.

KFF? Skimmers moving fast? Smoke Launchers?

Heffling wrote:Bomb squigs only hit vehicles. Vehicles don't get cover saves, only obscured. A bomb squig does not need to draw line of site, so the vehicle could never be obscured.

Neither does indirect fire from a barrage weapon. Does that mean I never get a cover save from that either?

calypso2ts wrote:

Heffling wrote:Bomb squigs only hit vehicles. Vehicles don't get cover saves, only obscured. A bomb squig does not need to draw line of site, so the vehicle could never be obscured.

Neither does indirect fire from a barrage weapon. Does that mean I never get a cover save from that either?

Actually, in that case, depending on where the center of the blast is, you might not.

Key word being never?

daedalus wrote:

calypso2ts wrote:

Heffling wrote:Bomb squigs only hit vehicles. Vehicles don't get cover saves, only obscured. A bomb squig does not need to draw line of site, so the vehicle could never be obscured.

Neither does indirect fire from a barrage weapon. Does that mean I never get a cover save from that either?

Actually, in that case, depending on where the center of the blast is, you might not.

Doesn't matter where the centre of the blast is, you still get KFF, flat-out, etc.

Boss - and most psychic powers in the shooting phase give cover saves.

For an example of a power NOT in the shooting phase still giving cover saves, see Mind War. Start of turn, Psychic power, but still gives cover saves.

Vehicles DO GET cover saves. If the vehicle is obscured from tracing a line of sight (and you do have to trace one, reread your codex on the requirements to firing a squig) from the model nominated to be releasing the squig then the vehicle gets a cover save. No ifs or buts.

Show me where vehicles get a cover save that's not an obscured save. Also, read my codex? Lol, maybe you should read about releasing squigs, as your statement is totally wrong about how they are used. FAQ also:

Q. Can a Tankbusta unit release its Bomb Squigs
first and then shoot later in the Shooting phase?
Do they have to target an enemy unit that is
attacked by a Bomb Squig? Do they then have to
assault that vehicle?

A. Releasing Bomb Squigs is done at the same
time as the unit’s regular shooting. The target of
released Squigs do not affect the mob’s target for
shooting and assaulting.


Q. Do Bomb Squigs require line of sight and can
they move through impassable terrain? Where is
their range measured from?

A. No line of sight is required and they move
freely regardless of any impediments.

You are mildly confiused about saves.

Vehicles that are *obscured* receive a cover save, 4+ if it is from a piece of wargear (that doesnt specify otherwise) or the same as the terrain they are hidden behind, e.g. 4+ for ruins.
So no, there is no such thing as an "obscured save"

Your last quote is irrelevant. The firing unit is still the tankbustas, nothing indicates that terrain ceases to exist and nothing negates that not requiring LOS has no bearing on whether you give a cover save to the unit or not.

In short: yes, if LOS frmo the tankbusta unit is blocked the vehicle gets a cover save.

End of.

Yup.

You cannot get a cover/obscured save due to terrain from a weapon that is not affected by terrain.

Boss Grabnutz wrote:You cannot get a cover/obscured save due to terrain from a weapon that is not affected by terrain.

Page please for your claim here? This is completely fabricated even though I am sure you believe it is in the rule book. See indirect fire of ordinance weapons...(hint, you get cover from them...)

Fabricated? Really? So a weapon that automatically hits still needs to roll? A weapon that ignroes terrain still doesn't ignore it? Sure, ok. As for indirect fire from ordnance..I assume waht you really mean is Barrage? Then finish the thought: you get cover saves from them WHEN there's something bewtween you and the blast template point of impact.

Boss Grabnutz wrote:You cannot get a cover/obscured save due to terrain from a weapon that is not affected by terrain.

Page number please.

It hits regardless of terrain. NOTHING in there states that it ignores terrain for the purposes of determining cover saves. which is what you're missing.

Boss Grabnutz wrote:Fabricated? Really? So a weapon that automatically hits still needs to roll? A weapon that ignroes terrain still doesn't ignore it? Sure, ok. As for indirect fire from ordnance..I assume waht you really mean is Barrage? Then finish the thought: you get cover saves from them WHEN there's something bewtween you and the blast template point of impact.

Why is it people expect a full explanation of the barrage rules whenever I mention them and cover saves. Further, none of the points you made above either have a page reference or are even relevant to your original statement about obscured saves.

the point is moot nothing in the squig lists it as a shooting attack. Ergo, no save.

Ergo ( shooting Phase)

geewiz that sums it up perty good

The tankbustas would count as the unit (firing the squig) so LOS would have to be determined from them.

Nothing in the rules allows you to put a squig marker on the board move it to said vehicle and than explode there ...

that being said ur stuck with granting cover saves, deal with it. Its how the game works ... there is no support for what you're saying.

Boss Grabnutz wrote:the point is moot nothing in the squig lists it as a shooting attack. Ergo, no save.

As previously stated by Nos, mind war is not a shooting attack, yet it grants a cover save.

Boss Grabnutz wrote:the point is moot nothing in the squig lists it as a shooting attack. Ergo, no save.

You are mistaken about cover saves, again.

ONLY close combat attacks explicitly deny cover saves. You have yet to prove, in any way shape or form, that the squigs deny cover saves. So the dont.

In short: sorry we're not giving you the answer you wanted to hear, but they CAN give cover saves depending on LOS, etc.

Mind war IS a PSA, however not one in the shooting phase. This was to correct the erroneous "you can only take cover saves in the shooting phase" idea that was briefly mooted by Boss.

This was a really interesting discussion...

unfortunately i don't think and Ork player (of which i am one) could argue there way out of a cover save really. It would need to explicitly say: no cover save. In the spirit of "realistic-ness" (for lack of a better term here) it really should disallow cover saves. The Squig is running up to and directly into a the side of an enemy vehicle - then detonating, no terrain would be in the way so logically no cover save. Unfortunately that is not really enough and it would need an official FAQ, as do many thing in the Ork Codex.

put simply we kinda get screwed outta this one - its the Deff Rolla all over again! expensive, powerful weapons that are rendered just that bit less useful thanks to a lack of detail

Eldar Codex wrote:Mind War: ...Is used in the shooting phase...

Just saying.

arkapello wrote:it really should disallow cover saves. The Squig is running up to and directly into a the side of an enemy vehicle - then detonating, no terrain would be in the way so logically no cover save.

To be fair, that explanation could explain why any explosion (blast weapon) that lands on target (or not) would deny a cover save. Fortunately the rules do not back it.