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Okay, so i've been meaning to ask this for some time now.

The Line of Sight rule states, that you must be able to see more than 50% of a model, or it will recieve a cover safe.
What counts as 50% of a model? Height or Mass?

Here's an Example - the TRYGON:

- 5" tall
- thin lower body
- large torso


As RAW goes, you can ignore things like weapons, large wings, whips and similar. So time to strip:

- Now we got what counts as LoS - am i right?


Lastly, this ruin is about 4" tall, but with a broken wall, meaning that counting the creatures HEIGHT, we can only see less than 50%:

In this case, we see less than the 50% if we use the HEIGHT... But counting the MASS, we actually see over the 50%, and hence no cover save.

What are your thoughts?

I think the biggest question is, are the arms (scything talons) arms or weapons. Arms can be used for LOS, weapons cannot.

Melchiour wrote:I think the biggest question is, are the arms (scything talons) arms or weapons. Arms can be used for LOS, weapons cannot.

I'd count the arms, but not the blades attached. But thats just me.

dayve110 wrote:
I'd count the arms, but not the blades attached. But thats just me.

That sounds like a reasonable idea to me as well.

I think as it says that monstrous creatures must have 50% of its body hidden (p51) that would refer to the amount of mass. It then refers the player to p62 in the vehicles section on how to calculate the 50%. In that section it tells you to look for 50% of the facing, and while monstrous creatures do not have facings we then must use the entire model to calculate the 50%. Once again this points to mass, not height.

I'm with you on ignoring it's Scythes, but counting it's arms (even though the Scythes are an extention of it's body).

But in this case, if we count it's mass, RAW tells us to ignore weapons, blades, tails wings and anything else besides arms, legs, head and torso... Then what part of it is tail?
- 70% of it's body is a serpent-body. What part of that counts as BODY, and what part counts as TAIL?

Talk it over with your opponent prior to the game. I don't think there is anyway to say where body ends and tail begins. Even if the entire body is like that of a snake, even a snake is considered to have a tail (starts where the organs end).

DakkaDakka wrote:

In practice, this questions has lead me to bring it up pre-game and then almost never claim cover saves with them--barring a venomthrope or whatnot.

It really can go either way depending on how you read 50% of the model as well as "tail" on a serpentine model.
That said, it is better to assume the weaker version for yourself, and easier to assume your opponent will, at best, ask for a dice off in a situation where it 'matters'.

I always consider 50% obscured to mean 50% of the profile facing me. Project the Trygon onto a 2d plane. If half that area is covered, then it is in cover.

For your example I would say the Trygon is not in cover. I always let me opponents though determine their own cover saves and most people err on the side of fairness. If you are unsure make it a 5+ save instead. This is a bit more consistent than dicing off for a 4+

calypso2ts wrote:I always consider 50% obscured to mean 50% of the profile facing me. Project the Trygon onto a 2d plane. If half that area is covered, then it is in cover.

For your example I would say the Trygon is not in cover.

I think it can be argued this is not true, but perhaps this images are off or the questions isn't what I read. Most of the area is taken by the body/tail, whereas a fair amount of the volume is the upper torso/arm section.

You can definitely argue that it is the majority of the models mass, IIRC GW does not specify how to determine 50% of the MC is covered, they just state it must be covered.

That is just generally how I interpret the rule, if there is something in the BRB that exactly states how to determine that 50% ratio I would be excited to know the page number!

calypso2ts wrote:if there is something in the BRB that exactly states how to determine that 50% ratio I would be excited to know the page number!

And. . . /thread

I go by 50% of the profile/silhouette from the firing model's perspective.

Just out of curiosity, what percentage of the Trygon's potential targetable profile is covered in that 3rd pic?

Billinator wrote:- 70% of it's body is a serpent-body. What part of that counts as BODY, and what part counts as TAIL?

Not to be too much of a prick, but a serpents tail comprises less than 10% of it's body; so that 70% serpentine body would only have about 7-10% overall length of tail.

I'd actually only consider the part that lifts off the ground as it's "tail"

I think both height and mass are wrong for potentially deciding the amount of cover a MC needs in order to be obscured.

Obviously you can have horizontal obstacles that can obscure a model from LoS along with vertical ones. So that's why I discount using only height as a factor.

Mass also is going to be an issue especially for models, like this Trygon.

I think what a few have mentioned, using the profile/silhouette is the best possible option and then even downgrading the save in case it's in dispute. Models like these are always going to be contentious simply because of their diverse shapes. Even talking about it before the game is gonna yield very little as the cover is something that has to be decided during the game. Ultimately it's a matter of good sportsmanship.

Vehicles are measured based on their silhouette. I would suggest that the same mechanism applies to MC's.

Scott-S6 wrote:Vehicles are measured based on their silhouette. I would suggest that the same mechanism applies to MC's.

kirsanth wrote:Just out of curiosity, what percentage of the Trygon's potential targetable profile is covered in that 3rd pic?

Not as spam, but as reference for intention.

kirsanth wrote:Just out of curiosity, what percentage of the Trygon's potential targetable profile is covered in that 3rd pic?

Hard to tell - do you want the MASS or the HEIGHT?

The models body (full body) is wrapped around it's base, which is about 30-35% of it's length, but much less it's total MASS.
- Again, the question about how much is tail rise...


The thing is just, that as soon as an obstacle obscure from it's waist and down, it covers 3/5 of the 5" height - but if asking for mass, we need to determine which part of it's serpent-body counts as it's TAIL, and what counts as its MASS...

Basically, it's much easier to tell from the models HEIGHT, rather than it's mass... (ie i could move the arms around, or reposition the model on a non-horizontal ruin, such as the one on the picture, or similar!).

That was, with a fair amout of summary, my point as well.

(i.e. there is no way I can see to actually rule on it but you can look and say "If you count only it's hieght, I can see more than half of it" is way too easy--THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT EVERY OPPONENT DOES)

Again, i'd say it depends on how much of it's tail isn't tail, but part of it's body...

If we went with Kommisar Kel's statement, only 10% of a serpents body is tail, then we're measuring from it's hip (which i figure is where the lower ST's are located), and the last 10% from there should be it's tail, which should be just around the "removable" (since i've magnetized it's "tail-end") piece at the tip. But then again, we'd have mass FLAT OUT on the base, that's just wrapped around, but still helps to serve as a cover-giving element in the form of mass, right?

So which part is targetable? Well, about most of it, except the tip of the tail, i guess?

This is why the BRB states to clear up any issues about terrain before the game starts.. Lol

It's hard to say in the 3rd pic, but I would have no problem taking a 5+ at all..

40k is not a static world, I always imagine MC can duck or move or bend to take advantage of cover and usually it's not game changing.. Like I said.. If it's that much of a hard time deciding.. Give it a 5+

I play eldar, if going off the mass rule, wraithlords would never get cover..

kirsanth wrote:That was, with a fair amout of summary, my point as well.

(i.e. there is no way I can see to actually rule on it but you can look and say "If you count only it's hieght, I can see more than half of it" is way too easy--THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT EVERY OPPONENT DOES)

The problem with height is that it breaks down if you have cover that isn't square. e.g. the third pic in the op. Where do you take the "height" of the cover? The tallest point that's covering part of the model? The lowest point that's covering part of the model? Somewhere inbetween?

What about cover which is taller than the model but only covering one side of it?

Height of the intervening cover fails to function in far too many cases.

calypso2ts wrote:I always consider 50% obscured to mean 50% of the profile facing me. Project the Trygon onto a 2d plane. If half that area is covered, then it is in cover.

For your example I would say the Trygon is not in cover. I always let me opponents though determine their own cover saves and most people err on the side of fairness. If you are unsure make it a 5+ save instead. This is a bit more consistent than dicing off for a 4+

That's the approach I prefer.

Fact is, a Trygon is such a huge model that any unit wanting to get a shot at it will usually be able to find a line of sight however you want to define and calculate 50% coverage.

That's why Venomthropes where invented.

Kilkrazy wrote:

calypso2ts wrote:I always consider 50% obscured to mean 50% of the profile facing me. Project the Trygon onto a 2d plane. If half that area is covered, then it is in cover.

For your example I would say the Trygon is not in cover. I always let me opponents though determine their own cover saves and most people err on the side of fairness. If you are unsure make it a 5+ save instead. This is a bit more consistent than dicing off for a 4+

That's the approach I prefer.

Fact is, a Trygon is such a huge model that any unit wanting to get a shot at it will usually be able to find a line of sight however you want to define and calculate 50% coverage.

That's why Venomthropes where invented.

Yeah. - I'd second that!

Venomthropes, however isn't the most reliable unit. Good rolls on some S8+, and sayonara, Venomt's.
- It's a shame, though, as the VT has got some INSANELY nice area-effect-abilities...

But, yeah, a 2D LoS over height or mass sounds fair!

Threads like this are why TLOS is awesome.

MikeMcSomething wrote:Threads like this are why TLOS is awesome.

True dat! Just not always an option. Try having your mini's with their back up against a wall of a ruin on the middle of a 4'x4' table, and see if you can TLOS it

50% is 50%, up and down or left and right. How is this a difficult concept?

Billinator wrote:

MikeMcSomething wrote:Threads like this are why TLOS is awesome.

True dat! Just not always an option. Try having your mini's with their back up against a wall of a ruin on the middle of a 4'x4' table, and see if you can TLOS it

I was being sarcastic =( TLOS is crap


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:50% is 50%, up and down or left and right. How is this a difficult concept?

Did you read the thread? The whole point of the posts above yours is how to arrive at that 50%