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Ok so it looks like I need to step up the game with my WoC monster army even in friendly games, as the lack of magic is severely injuring me. However, seeing as how it is still a themed army I need to keep that in mind so I want to see what everyone thinks about this list. As said Im maintaining theme while going for something that will still bring the pain.

Just to make it clear, Im currently working on two conversions. One being a Troll riding a disk of tzeentch, the other being a Daemon Prince torso (or a certain Privateer Press legion torso depending on the location) on a carnosaur body as a Juggernaught Dragon Ogre Conversion... With that in mind, here is the list.


Sorcerer Lord- LvL 4, MoT, Disk, Crown of Everlasting Conquest, Helm of Many Eyes, Whip of Subversion, Third Eye of Tzeentch, Stream of Corruption- 455

Throgg- 185
Exalted- MoK, BSB, Juggernaught

6 Chaos Trolls- 270
6 Chaos Trolls- 270
6 Chaos Trolls- 270

8 Dragon Ogres- AHW- 584

Dragon Ogre Shaggoth- 265

Total- 2499

So as you can see, that Sorcerer Lord is probably more Troll than the Trolls! Hes rocking a 4+ Regen, Stupidity, and even has a Vomit (breath weapon). Of coarse hes got a few other trinkets in there but I don't think I could have gone any more themed with this guy while still making him capable of punching some stuff in the face (as any Troll should!).

Everything else is pretty straight forward, I had to drop the Shaggoth weapon just to make points for the BSB, might even drop a Dragon Ogre just to throw some gear on him. What does everyone think though? Would you be more afraid to fight Kholek or the Troll Wizard/Dragon Ogre BSB combo?

Any tips would be awsome of coarse!

WHOA @ your troll level 4, that's some intensely theme-y building!

WHOA @ your drogre star too

As to getting some kind of gear on the BSB, I say 'YES' even if it's minimal anti-artillery stuff. Your one source of free points looks like the whip of subversion - 3 S4 attaks, even with WS5 and rerolls, I don't think is enough to convince me that that big T5 (probably regen-ing) monster is going to take a wound and mash his friends up, or some armored / warded up hero either. I'd rather take those 25 points and buy:

+ biting blade for level 4 (5)
+ charmed shield for BSB (5)
+ ironcurse icon for BSB (5)
+ ahw for shaggoth (10)

The level 4 still has a little more oomph behind his ASF, but mostly it's for tagging magic-weak opponents (ethereal, treemonics) along with the magical troll vomit. The BSB has a touch of anti-war machine help, and can give it to whomever he tags along with. And the shaggy fights more!

- Salvage

Woops! I was so caught up in the Troll Mage that I was thinking he was str 5 base! I suppose whip wouldn't be such a good choice after all then

The BSB will be in the Drogre unit so ironcurse icon will even provide a bit of protection for them.

Lets just hope that Sorcerer doesn't fail his stupidity check...

I agree with the Sorcerer build: serious theme-power going on there.

Just one thing, though: does he really need to "Regenerate" specifically? I mean, a Ward save is the same thing but a little better, and he could take full advantage of his Mark that way. Taking the Talisman of Preservation would lead to an even more regenerate-y Lord, or Endurance to save some points.

You need at least 1 more banner to avoid auto losing Blood and Glory but I have no idea which (if any) of the units you are running can even take command.

Warpsolution wrote:Just one thing, though: does he really need to "Regenerate" specifically? I mean, a Ward save is the same thing but a little better, and he could take full advantage of his Mark that way.

Boo, trolls wish they had a 3+ ward save

- Salvage

Yeah I always have a problem with the banner scenario but nothing much I can do about it here.

And yeah for tourny purposes (which doesn't happen often due to no special characters allowed) the Troll Sorcerer would defiinitely get a more competitive build, though for friendly games people tend to get mad when I take a cheesy Sorcerer build

Maybe I could drop a Troll from one unit (since Throgg would fill it up) to get that Juggernaught BSB Taliman of preservation since he won't get look out sirs?

I would totally go for odd numbers in the units you're putting your characters in, imho it's a great way to get points.

What about something more drastic with your unit builds? I find units of 6 trolls to be too small to tackle blocks at higher point levels. If you were to drop down to say 5 dragon ogres, even if you give them GWs, you'll save 200 points. Add on 3 trolls and a Bunch of gear to your BSB, gives you a nice 9-strong troll unit for throgg to join, plus the much-needed BSB Survivability Kit (TM).

I think it's really cool that you're going for gear to make your sorcerer troll-like, although personally I'm happy with giving mine whatever I want as long as I model him like an ogre . Also very interesting that we've come to one of the same conclusions about our lists- they need characters! A BSB and sorcerer specifically. I just got the model that will be riding the metal rhinox for my alternate BSB in the mail today . However, I've also decided that I need larger units... and I think that'd be worth considering, for at least one of your troll units here.

I would also make the sorcerer the general (although you can wait to declare this until you see what you're facing, and change your mind if your opponent has cannons... it does not have to be on your army list, in the BRB it just says to notify your opponent before deployment or the first turn, I believe). He'll give up even more if he dies, but you'll need leadership somewhere other than throgg with 3 stupid units. You might be able to just get away with throgg's leadership with 2 units of trolls, but not 3... so it's worth considering just combining them if you want to keep the dragon ogre unit massive. I'd still go for dropping one to make room for the BSB, though! Although, am I right that he will get no LOS?

Looking forward to checking out your new pics, too!

Sounds good. Sadly the Jugger is on a 50mm and will be outside the Drogre unit so theres not much point in losing models for him.

Ive actually done quite well with 6 man units of Trolls in all honesty. They don't necessarily break everything on the charge, but they almost always stay there and slowy break units down.
The army has so few units as is that I find taking bigger blocks (and less units) hurts me more than anything. I do however normally use Kholek in my lists which tends to be magnet for missle fire (and sadly warmachines) as well as charging along with Trolls to lend a hand.

Heh, I just thought it would be cool to have the Sorcerer act similarly to a Troll as it really does tie the list together. And indeed the list needs characters. Kholek does his job most of the time, but hardly makes up his points and I get rather discouraged at loosing a 605 pt character before he gets into combat.

Ive almost always been able to reach the 3 units of Trolls with just Throggs LD. It might just be the way I play the army (Usually the 3 Troll units are close to each other with Throgg in the middle) but unless I get a tricky scenario Im usually fine. I suppose yet again Kholek helps in the way with his 18" LD.

I suppose I will give running big blocks of Trolls another go just to see how it works out, but from past experiences I find 6man units to be quite painful. Will most definitely keep it in mind though.

Cant wait to see the conversions!

It could also be the armies in your area don't tend to deathstar so much... which is a good thing!

Also, perhaps since you're used to having a 600 point character, you need as many units as possible... I'm just finding that larger units tend to bring home the bacon for me

My problem with throgg sharing his LD with 3 unit is, if any one of them fails a stupidity check, they're going to lag behind the others. So when the others hit the enemy line and charge, they're going to be out of range of that lagging unit. Something to think about, but since you get the chance to declare who your general is you can always make it throgg if your opponent has cannons or anything similar . But then if he goes down, that's all she wrote for your blocks! And I find he's going down for me much more often than I'd anticipated... even if it's in combat, if your trolls lose at any point they won't be passing their LD check anymore

Like I said, loving the layout on your sorcerer, though!!

RiTides, I was wondering: 18 trolls in one horde won't give up their points until the last troll takes his last wound. So there's a big "plus" for the big unit.

But if three units of 6 trolls all charge into one unit, the damage is the same, right? I'm just trying to wrap my head around all the advantages to the Deathstar. And it seems like the above is it's only advantage that doesn't come with an appropriate disadvantage.

Well, there are several disadvantages to multiple smaller units. I ran into this a lot with treekin for my wood elves.

3 units of 6 strong might seem like the equivalent of an 18-strong unit. However, realistically you are only ever going to get 2 of those units into combat (since 2 units have a 6-wide frontage, the same as the 18-strong unit). So 6 of your trolls are likely sitting out... assuming your enemy didn't position himself in perfect charge position for you to get his front with 2 units, and his flank with another!

Even comparing 2 units of 6-strong to a single unit of 12 (an odd size, but still) there is a likelihood that you might be charged... in which case one 6-strong unit might bite the dust, and let the enemy overrun to safety, or reform to face the other unit.

Also, in 8th with random charge distances- on any kind of charge other than Very short, you have a high likelihood of having one unit fall short! This happened to me numerous times with my units of 6 treekin trying to combi-charge a unit, and it was maddening.

Now, obviously the advantages of having more units is that you can cover more ground, tackle multiple other units, etc. I don't think going to the extreme is necessarily the answer- for example, the running of the bulls list above with only 2 real units, both 18-strong. But I do think there is a balance, and I've found 8 or even 10-strong units to be very persuasive.

Just my $0.02 and experience with this, I've really been trying to hash out my take on unit sizes and see what others' are in 8th as well. A nice solution to this problem are the ETC restrictions, which allow no more than 12 monstrous infantry, 40 regular infantry, or a total of 450 points in any one unit.

RiTides wrote:A nice solution to this problem are the ETC restrictions, which allow no more than 12 monstrous infantry, 40 regular infantry, or a total of 450 points in any one unit.

I've been keeping my mouth shut in the double bullstar armylist and this one, but I'm 110% for at the very least this section of the ETC restrictions. Deathstars really do terrible things to the game and this is a great move toward keeping variety and (at least some!) tactical depth in the game.

- Salvage

Buttler,

I know she isnt very trollish, but have you considered Valkria? She has a 12" BSB effect, similar to that of Throgg.

Better yet, while she's on the board all Eye of the Gods rolls can be re-rolled, so those troll regen saves can add up to better bonuses for your army.

She's expensive at 410 points, but cheaper than the Kholek at 605. Plus she flies and causes fear, has +2 Str and KB while charging, and is small enough you can hide her behind your unit of trolls and your opponent most definately won't be able to trace out line of sight to her.

Odds of a cannon or bolt piercing two ranks of trolls and hitting her on the backside are pretty slim as well. If you are super worried about it, give her a bunker of 10 marauders to hide in and model them up as troll-slaves or something.

Tides, that all makes some pretty good sense.

I've heard the random-charge argument played in reverse, that one bad roll means all your guys are left in the breeze, but that doesn't seem nearly as bad; 18 guys taking a charge will be fine. 6 guys who charged into a super-unit will not.

In some ways, I feel like bigger units work well when facing other big units, while multiple smaller units do better when facing...less...big units. Kind of funny how that works. It's almost like an arms-race, but it escalates and deescalates, instead of just getting worse.

I'd model them like the guys who follow the horses and the elephants in the parade, with the garbage can on wheels and the brooms and mops. The trolls and ogres are going to leave quite a mess behind them.

The horde units of Trolls definitely have their bonuses, and its extremely tempting at times. But you are right RiTides, aside from tournaments or any competitive event, I rarely see any death stars where I play. I don't believe I have played Skaven at all with this army (oddly enough I don't see many skaven players!) which has saved me from alot of the pain and suffering of fighting large steadfast units.

I suppose the reason I haven't had too many problems with LD is because yet again Kholek has come to the armies aid with 18" LD. Ususally works out fine since I try not to send him out by himself, thus resulting in being next the Troll units.

I will eventually have to try out a horde unit of Trolls along side a horde unit of Drogres (as if the 8-12 man unit I normally run isnt enough!) just to see how it works. Who knows, maybe even a horde of Hounds!

I've thought about using Valkia in the past Thunder, but in all honesty I just couldn't ever find a way to tie her into the fluff. As "beastly" as she is, it just doesn't seem to fit. Though I do have a winged Troll now...

It has come to my attention that Helm of Many Eyes on the sorcerer might not be the best choice. While its cool thats hes themed out by being stupid (Stupid=Cool? *Facepalm), he really shouldnt be in combat anyways. So Im thinking it would be best to just take that off as well as the whip to give the BSB even more protection? Or possibly just give the Sorcerer another shooting attack such as Deaths Head?

Buttler wrote:I will eventually have to try out a horde unit of Trolls along side a horde unit of Drogres (as if the 8-12 man unit I normally run isnt enough!) just to see how it works. Who knows, maybe even a horde of Hounds!

For all my talking about larger units, I haven't had anyone want to play against a horde of trolls yet, so I haven't gotten to try it out! I've done quite a bit of testing with units of 8 and 10 trolls/ogres, though, and their performance is what has convinced me to up my numbers a bit.

I do wonder if skaven are so scarce just because it's so discouraging to paint a model... and have it be worth only 2 points .

I may try a similar thing to the quote above, but with a unit of trolls and one of ogres. I don't think it will necessarily be effective, though- you're absolutely right Warpsolution in that the optimum size depends on what you face, and I think somewhere in the middle (or at least, not all small or all gigantic units) is best.

As to the helm of many eyes, dropping it for BSB Survival Gear sounds good!

Quick Question,

I'm new and this list appeals to a friend of mine, but seeing as Throgg(?) is a special character is he normally not allowed in tournaments?

we all are looking to play in them but he doesn't want to build "this" army if he can't use it most the time.

thanks
-Toeko

Toeko,

That question is better answered by the owners of the stores who will host your local tournaments.

If you are asking about the big name events like adepticon and so forth, as far as I know only Ard Boyz allows fantasy special characters.

As far as Trollstar goes, I played a list similar to this a couple days ago with my TK's and came out on top. Something you should watch out for..

Turn 1 - Trolls march.
Turn 2 - Trolls march.
Turn 3 - Trolls cant move due to Khalida's bound item preventing movement.
Turn 4 - Trolls cant move due to flank charge from Tomb Scorpions.
Turn 5- Trolls still tied up with Scorpions, but finally reform and wipe them.
Turn 6 - Trolls attempt a charge, needing a 9, and fail.

Trollstar = Trollfail if you arent cautious about enemy stall tactics. All I had to do was beat up his marauders and kill off a few characters and I eked out a minor or a major depending on points scale... amd that's with TK's, who aren't that great.

Thunderfrog wrote:That question is better answered by the owners of the stores who will host your local tournaments.

If you are asking about the big name events like adepticon and so forth, as far as I know only Ard Boyz allows fantasy special characters.

I agree with the first part. For the second, I believe there are a lot of GTs that allow special characters... I'm planning on attending 2 this year with my throgg-led army. So I don't think it should necessarily put him off from starting an army like this, but it does unfortunately mean that there are some events he won't be able to play in with it.

About the trollstar points- great job! This is exactly what I envision myself doing to my opponent's deathstar even though it hasn't worked out that way thus far! And it's a great argument for the medium-sized units, being superior to one super-unit in many cases, since two units could probably have gotten out of that jam a lot faster than one.

I seem to always have problems with TK with any variation of the monster list I take. I haven't used magic against them though which is probably my biggest mistake. So far their magic has just been so overwhelming and those flaming catapults wreak havoc upgon my army. On top of that its just near impossible to break anything by the time I get to combat.

Definitely a good point on the Death Star though. I suppose thats one reason I love my 6 man units so much, they are just so manuverable and tactical (not so much... considering they are stupid). Even still it seems pretty easy to out manuver the Troll army so I guess Ill have to wait till I can try out the Trollstar and make up my mind.

Tactical trolls but I agree, I just find that once I take a few losses in those 6 man units, I'm really wishing I brought 8...

Also, I move for your sig to link to your beastly blog, rather than the mammoth blog from last year. It's time

Haha! I forgot that sig even had a link Changed it.
True enough that once a 6man unit loses a guy you start to lose models... I might try running a list with 2 9 man units and an 8 man unit (for Throgg to fill) as that gives me either 2 ranks, or 4 models to lose before my attacks start dwindling down.
It might not be the best way to go about running them, but its worth a shot since in all honestly I haven't tried running them to many ways. Ive ran them in 6 man units and 12 man units (I would have to try it again to give any real input) and I once ran 18 River Trolls with my OnG and needless to say they face wrecked.
Hopefully I can get a game or two in tomorrow and make some adjustments to the list accordingly.

-As a side note, the Troll Sorcerer is currently being worked on !

Looking forward to seeing the troll sorcerer! If you go 9-strong, you'll also have the option to run them 4-wide (or the unit with throgg 5-wide... actually pretty good when I tried it that way!). That way they all get to fight

However, not having a musician to do a swift reform is a major bummer for the trolls

You know, in dropping the shaggoth I can probably I can probably make a list with 2 units of 9 trolls and a unit of 8 trolls along with the same characters and Drogres... also frees up points for equipment!
When I get home ill be sure to post a new list like that.

Ahem, ahem ahem...

Now now RiTides, haven't you learned that "When I get home" or "tomorrow" generally means sometime within the next week? Brb, working on assembling Treemen...

Still haven't bought glue...

Sorry for the lack of list/updates but the week got rather hectic since a certain family member decided to go ahead and have a child...

I did however finish (building) the Sorcerer Troll and Palanquin Troll (for the most part, getting the nurgling mound next week). I finally got some time though so as soon as I take pics and update my actual P&M thread I will head on back here and throw down a new list (probably with a palanquin though since I won't get to start the Jugger Troll till next week!).

EDIT: Ok so the list is a bit different from what I expected. I must not have added it up correctly when the idea came up (thats what I get for attemtping basic math in my head!) so the list will be a bit different.


Troll Sorcerer- LvL 3, MoT, Disk, Talisman of Preservation, Third Eye, Stream of Corruption- 365

Throgg- 185
Exalted Troll- MoN, BSB, Palanquin, Shield, Crown of Everlasting Conquest- 260

8 Chaos Trolls- 360
9 Chaos Trolls- 405
9 Chaos Trolls- 405

8 Dragon Ogres- 520

Total- 2500

So for this I decided to give the Sorcerer a bit more safety(with the 3+ Ward save while giving the new Nurgle Troll of... Trollyness(?) the regen (just seemed more fitting!). For the sake of points I had to drop the Wizards level down to 3 which honestly shouldnt be to bad since he has third eye. I also sadly had to drop the Drogre weapons for the sake of points. I definitely think adding 10 Trolls is alot better than a Shaggoth. Cant say the same for the Palanquin over the Jugger, but that only temporary as I don't have a Juggernaught Troll yet. I didn't get to try out the original list this past Saturday sadly, but I was to busy building the Sorcerer/Palanquin Trolls.

Any Suggestions?

Just a thought, but why two units of 9 and one of 8?? It seems like there only needs to be one odd-numbered unit to stick throgg in, since the BSB just has to get stuck onto the side of the unit anyway (i.e. it would work best with an even number) if you decide to join him to one. That could free up 45 points if you go with only one unit of 9, perhaps joined with something else to get the drogres their weapons.

Well the units arent staying in 2 ranks. I might eventually try it with two 4x2 units and one 5x2 unit but for this list I was thinking more 3x3 units to either get me that extra rank in combat, or allow me to lose guys before losing attacks in combat. As is the units seem pretty hard to manuver so making them so wide would make it even harder to manuever. Not to mention most of the time unless Im fighting horde units, I won't get all the Trolls in combat anyways.

I will definitely give it ago but I want to see how 3x3 does first. Who knows, maybe it will work better in two ranks than three and Im just being stubborn! Guess I will try it both ways then make a decision.