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Righto, here are my ideas for an updated DA codex.
I will be updating it as much s i can but here is the start of the Special characters

Army Special Rules: Stubborn (unless otherwise stated)
Deathwing Assault: Up to half your DW terminators sqauds may DS on the first turn (rounding up).
Any DW terminator sqaud DS'ing onto the board rolls 1D6 and scatter dice, the scatter dice may be re-rolled, you must accept the result of the second roll, even if worse.
Combat squads.
ATSKNF

Ezekial, Grandmaster of the librarians Pts200
WS 5
BS 5
S 4
T4
W2
I 5
A 2
LD10
SV 2+
Special Rules: Independent Character, Stubborn, Psyker
Wargear:
Frag/Krak grenades
Epistolary
Secrets Shield: Articifer armour
Deliverer: MC-Bolt pistol
Traitors Bane: MC-Force weapon
Psychic Hood
Book of Salvation: As is in 4th Ed Codex (with Faq Update)

Psychic powers:

Force Barrier: At the start of the DA Turn Ezekial must take a psychic test, it lasts 1 turn (game not player)
For Every attack directed at Ezekial or his unit, subtract 1d6 from its strength, to a minimum of 3.

Hellfire: Str 2D6-2 Ap3 Lance Template assault 1. Psychic test

Mind Worm: Pick an Enemy target with a LD Value, take a Psychic test, for every point you pass by the enemy unit is reduced
by 1 LD to a minimum of 5, it then must test for pinning. (No model is immune to mind worm, if it has a ld value it can be pinned by this power, and by extention no model without a ld value can be affected)

Weaken Resolve:
You may force 1 enemy unit to take a morale check on 3d6, or immediatly fall back, if psychic test is failed, the psykers unit immediatly falls back.
Range: 36" This was wrong, it should be
Any 1 unit with a model in 18" that is called on to take a pinning, morale or leadership test must add a further D6 to there score, the psyker must pass a LD check for the effect

So tell me what you think
Next up Belial


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Belial, Master of the Deathwing 180
WS 6
BS 5
S 4
T 4
W 3
I 5
A 4
LD 10
Special Rules: Fearless, Independent character, Deathwing Assault
Rites of battle, Eternal Warrior
Wargear: Terminator Armour, Iron Halo
Sword of Silence: The sword of silence is a Master Crafted Relic blade
Lions Talon storm bolter: Str 4 ap4 assault 2
"Master of the Deathwing": If Belial is taken as a HQ, DW Terminator Tactical Sqauds may be taken as troops choices.

Any character in Terminator armour may take a deathwing command sqaud
Deathwing Command Sqaud 0-1 PTS 230
WS 4
BS 5
S 4
T4
W 1
I 4
A 2
LD 10
SV 2+/5++
Special rules: Deathwing assault, Fearless
Wargear: Company Standard: Any model in the unit gain +1 attack, all DA units within 12" gain +1 to combat results.
Terminator armour. Power fist, Storm Bolter (sergeant has power weapon)

Options:
May Take an Apothecarie at 30pts (the apothecarie and standard bearer is assumed to be a terminator for any of the folowing upgrades)
may take any 2 of the following
Assault cannon 30
Heavy flamer 5
Cyclone launcher 30
Any model may replace weapons for, TH/SS, or Twin LC

May take any type of land raider (DA codex) as a dedicated transport

Formosa wrote: Deathwing Assault: Up to half your DW terminators sqauds may DS on the first turn (rounding up).
Any DW terminator sqaud DS'ing onto the board rolls 1D6 and scatter dice, the scatter dice may be re-rolled, you must accept the result of the second roll, even if worse.

So, it's like Drop Pod Assault and Descent of Angels had a love child which turned out to be better than both parents? I'd either remove the reroll or make it scatter 2d6.

Formosa wrote:Ezekial, Grandmaster of the librarians Pts200
[Stats]

Drop him down to the two wounds and two attacks used by Njal and Tiggy and drop his BS down a point. You don't want him to surpass his equivalents in all the other loyalist codecii.

Formosa wrote:Force Barrier: At the start of the DA Turn Ezekial must take a psychic test, it lasts 1 turn (game not player)
For Every attack directed at Ezekial or his unit, subtract 1d6 from its strength, to a minimum of 3.
Hellfire: Str 2D6-2 Ap3 Lance Template assault 1. Psychic test
Mind Worm: Pick an Enemy target with a LD Value, take a Psychic test, for every point you pass by the enemy unit is reduced
by 1 LD to a minimum of 5, it then must test for pinning. (No model is immune to mind worm, if it has a ld value it can be pinned by this power, and by extention no model without a ld value can be affected)

I'd just give the Dark Angels a full list of powers, like the other three updated loyalists, and give Ezekial access to all of them. Mind Worm seems a bit nasty, especially if it isn't a shooting power. For clarity, by "for every point passed" do you mean for every point below ten?

Formosa wrote:Belial, Master of the Deathwing
[Stats]

Looks good.

Formosa wrote:Special Rules: Fearless, Independent character, Deathwing Assault
Rites of battle, Feel no Pain.
Wargear: Terminator Armour
Sword of Silence: The sword of silence is a Relic blade, It also negates Psychic powers targeteted at belial (or his unit) on a 4+.
Lions Talon storm bolter: Str 4 ap4 assault 3
"Master of the Deathwing": If Belial is taken as a HQ, DW terminators may be taken as troops choices.

Rites of Battle seems to be reserved for tactical genius type characters (Capt Tychus and Capt Sich); I'd remove it from Belial. Maybe give it to a new fellow (Sergeant Nimaan (sp?) could make for an interesting character). Drop Feel No Pain. No reason for Belial to have it, and he can run with a command squad anyways.

I don't know why you gave Belial an anti-psyker sword. I'd remove that power.

Formosa wrote:Deathwing Command Sqaud 0-1 PTS 230

Drop the BS back down to four. Max squad size on command squad seems to be capped at five; you should change yours to reflect that. Your banner is a bit over the top; I'd just keep it a normal Company Standard plus +1 A for the squad. None of the current loyalist codecii have Veteran Skills. Drop them.

RustyKnight wrote:

Formosa wrote: Deathwing Assault: Up to half your DW terminators sqauds may DS on the first turn (rounding up).
Any DW terminator sqaud DS'ing onto the board rolls 1D6 and scatter dice, the scatter dice may be re-rolled, you must accept the result of the second roll, even if worse.

So, it's like Drop Pod Assault and Descent of Angels had a love child which turned out to be better than both parents? I'd either remove the reroll or make it scatter 2d6.

Formosa wrote:Ezekial, Grandmaster of the librarians Pts200
[Stats]

Drop him down to the two wounds and two attacks used by Njal and Tiggy and drop his BS down a point. You don't want him to surpass his equivalents in all the other loyalist codecii.

Formosa wrote:Force Barrier: At the start of the DA Turn Ezekial must take a psychic test, it lasts 1 turn (game not player)
For Every attack directed at Ezekial or his unit, subtract 1d6 from its strength, to a minimum of 3.
Hellfire: Str 2D6-2 Ap3 Lance Template assault 1. Psychic test
Mind Worm: Pick an Enemy target with a LD Value, take a Psychic test, for every point you pass by the enemy unit is reduced
by 1 LD to a minimum of 5, it then must test for pinning. (No model is immune to mind worm, if it has a ld value it can be pinned by this power, and by extention no model without a ld value can be affected)

I'd just give the Dark Angels a full list of powers, like the other three updated loyalists, and give Ezekial access to all of them. Mind Worm seems a bit nasty, especially if it isn't a shooting power. For clarity, by "for every point passed" do you mean for every point below ten?

Formosa wrote:Belial, Master of the Deathwing
[Stats]

Looks good.

Formosa wrote:Special Rules: Fearless, Independent character, Deathwing Assault
Rites of battle, Feel no Pain.
Wargear: Terminator Armour
Sword of Silence: The sword of silence is a Relic blade, It also negates Psychic powers targeteted at belial (or his unit) on a 4+.
Lions Talon storm bolter: Str 4 ap4 assault 3
"Master of the Deathwing": If Belial is taken as a HQ, DW terminators may be taken as troops choices.

Rites of Battle seems to be reserved for tactical genius type characters (Capt Tychus and Capt Sich); I'd remove it from Belial. Maybe give it to a new fellow (Sergeant Nimaan (sp?) could make for an interesting character). Drop Feel No Pain. No reason for Belial to have it, and he can run with a command squad anyways.

I don't know why you gave Belial an anti-psyker sword. I'd remove that power.

Formosa wrote:Deathwing Command Sqaud 0-1 PTS 230

Drop the BS back down to four. Max squad size on command squad seems to be capped at five; you should change yours to reflect that. Your banner is a bit over the top; I'd just keep it a normal Company Standard plus +1 A for the squad. None of the current loyalist codecii have Veteran Skills. Drop them.

Deathwing assault is identical to the current DA codex, with the exception that DW get decent of angels added to it.

I see what you mean with Ezekial, however these ARE his current DA codex stats, all i have done is update his powers.

I cannot give DA the normal list of powers, as those powers do not seem to fit the Da theme.
How mind worm works.
Target an enemy unit with a LD value, take psychic test. reduce targets LD by 1 point, for every point that ezekial passed his test by.
EG. LD 9 marine sqaud targetted, Ezekial take test and rolls 5, the marine sqaud is reduced to LD 5 (the min allowed) and must test for pinning.

Righto, Belial is a master strategist, he is a Dark Angel =]
but seriously, every company master in the DA army has rites of battle, he also has FNP because he nearly got cut in half by Ghazghull and kept fighting... reason enough lol
And the anti psyker sword was an afterthought, "sword of silence" sounds anti psyker lol

i think you are right about the DWCS unit size, back to 5 it is.
The Bs is staying at 5, Deathwing are the best terminators in the galaxy, bout time it showed. plus my plans for this army is as a true marine gunline.
and the standard is the same as the DA codex one, all i did was update it to the SMC company banner.

Im not sure about the Vet skills? i got annoyed when they removed most of the options from the books, so added them for variety.

On Deathwing Assault: That just it. You took an already fine ability and added a BA thing to it. It just seems a bit over the top.

On Ezekial: If you're going to update, you should bring it inline with all the other SM books.

On Normal Powers: Eh, the current powers, aside from Mind Worm, really don't have any particularly Dark Angel-y aspects about them anyways. I'd go ahead and at least put Smite, Quickening, Might of the Ancients, and maybe Vortex onto the DA power list.

On Rites of Battle and Belial: My point was more that each SC in the newer SM books seems to have an archetype in mind. Calgar, Dante, and Grimnar are the super tough head honchos- the epitome of their chapter's fighting styles. Sich and Tycho are tactician type characters. Ulrik, SlayeroftheLostDudeWhoseNameIcannotRemember, and the SM Chaplain are all super chappies with unit buffs. With your Belial, you combine the super tactician with the terminator unlocker with the super tough guy. You should just focus on the unlock aspect with some mean CC skill, and let the other archetypes be used in other characters. All of the SM captains are master strategists, and all the SM heros have crazy stories. The special bonuses, like FNP and RoB, are reserved for the true exemplars of a facet of fightyness.

On Deathwing: All terminators are the best of the best. Are you really willing to say that Deathwing terminators are better than the Wolf Guard or the Titanhammer squads of the IF? If so, what fluff supports the notion that DW termies are so much more accurate? You can show how awesome the DW are by allowing them to customize their loadouts, be fearless, and Deep Strike quickly and accurately.

On Vet Skills: They add variety, but they harken back to older times. Like it or not, veteran skills seem to be gone.

Edit- Forgot about the banner- The normal SMC Banner only adds +1 combat resolution to the squad carrying it, not to all the squads within a foot.

Deathwing assault: I tested this out today and the Re-roll the scatter dice is what breaks it. So I will be totally changing it.

Deathwing assault: Deathwing are renowned for turning up just when needed. Deathwing terminator unit may re-the reserves dice, even if sucessfull.

Ezekial: I will bring in line with current SM's, I am currently reworking his powers.

Rites of battle: This replaces combat tactics, all space marine commanders are great tactitions, the DA are legendary even among them. Ultramarines get combat tactics, Imperial fists get stubborn, DA get Rites of battle.
I will be taking away stubborn from DA

Belial: Belial, Azrael, sammael and the masters (company) ARE master tactitions(sp?) they are Dark Angels, its part of there "thing" like BA are space metrosexuals or SW are viking/scottish/etc. werewolves, Every chapter has its "thing" the DA has Rites of Battle. GW accidently gave back some of the DA character when they removed it from the smurf codex.
the rest of your point is valid, i shall try to ajust Belial, dlightly =>

Its been stated both In DA fluff and from other in world sources, The Deathwing ARE the best Terminators Bar None, even the Grey Knights. I assume the last part is because from the perspective of the person, they dont know the Grey Knights exist, or just a GW mistake.
Suffice to say the oiwer level should be
GKT
Deathwing
Space wolf
Everyone else

Currently
Space wolf/Vulkan spam
Black templars
Everyone else
Deathwing (its the sqaud limit and overcosting thats the killer)

I'm writing my own little DA fan-dex. A few things I would like to share with you would be this: I've gotten rid of the company veteran squads. And I have not added vanguard or sternguard squads, but I have added a few of their options to tac and assault squads.

Mainly, tac squads can take 2 heavy, or 1 heavy 1 special weapon, they can also take some storm bolters and some combat shields.

And assault squads can add 1-2 extra power weapons/claws/fists/relic blades in addition to the sgt weapon, as well as a few combat shields.


And personally I gave Belial an Iron halo (he's the only company master without one in the current dex), i did give him relic blade, but kept his storm bolter as a normal one, with the option to swap his storm bolter for an assault cannon, or take a cyclone launcher

Edit: I actually have most of the dex re-written, except for special characters (other than azrael belial and sammael)

And another thing I suggest is consider replacing all options for TH with options for relic blades instead, maybe up the points. Like Deathwing squads with SS/RB for +10 pts per model. I have also been thinking about a termi-armor alternate profile for azrael, kinda based on the badass pic on page 13 of the codex, i know thats not areal, but i figure the master of the chapter, head of the counsil of unforgiven, leader of all deathwing companies, has a suit of termi armor to wear when he feels like it.

id like to do Azrael next, i see him as a force multiplyer he need something special to make him stand out from the other SM characters.. so here goes

WS 6
BS 5
S 4
T 4
W 4
I 5
A 4
LD 10
SV 2+/4++
Wargear: Master crafted combiplasma,
Bolt pistol
The Sword of Secrets: Master crafted Relic blade, single handed
The Lion Helm: Any Dark Angel unit with a model in 6" gains a 4+ invunerable (back to the original)
Special rules: Master Strategist: D3+1 units may be re-deployed before the game starts, this may even be, to put them back into reserve for DS or outflanking etc.
Rites of Battle, Fearless, stubborn (confers this to unit)

comments

Seems pretty good to me, I'd rewrite his wargear to be something like this though.

Bolt Pistol (no reason to try to make his plasma gun a pistol)

Lion's Wrath, master crafted, may choose which profile to use before firing each turn, 24" S4 Ap4 assault 4, or 24" S7 AP2, Rapid Fire

Sword of Secrets (dont see a reason to change to relic blade that is 1 handed, either way you're making a change to the basic rules of either relic blade or of power weapon so just keep it as is) Master Crafted Power weapon that increases strength of attacks to Strength 6.

fair point on the sword of secrets xyclon
infact fair point on all

A few idea's from a fellow DA fanatic.

In the current codex Azrael has a one handed relic blade for all intents and is armed with both the combi-plasma and a bolt pistol. Of all the SC in the current codex he is the one that needs little change to bring him in line with the rest of the SM chapter masters. Only change I would make is to his stat line. Although the move D6+1 units after deployment is a cool idea, maybe a bit overpowered. I like D3+1 better.

Belail needs the Iron Halo and Eternal Warrior. Other wise just bring his stat line in line with other SM Captains.

Ezekial need to be brought in line with other chapters chief librarians. Otherwise his powers are cool and his gear is good. Make him able to use 2 powers a turn as well. DO NOT change DA Iron Halo rules!

Sammael is also in need of the stat line change. But the only other change I would make is remove his Eternal Warrior rule and maybe replace it with FNP.

No one has thought to bring back Asmodi? The Interrogator Chaplain for the DA should be represented.

And going back through the editions the DA should have a point reduction or outright free upgrade on everything plasma and should have the Stubborn rule as their Chapter Tactic.

Bring back the hunt for the fallen rule, though this would involve adding Cypher back into the CSM codex.

Scouts should be moved to the troops section, Venerable dreads need BS 5, but otherwise the DA units are fine as they are. Add the thunderfire cannon and Ironclad Dread but keep the current Vets. No need for Vanguard or Sternguard.

As for Deathwing being the best Termies in the game well read Deathwing and the Grey Knight series and see for yourself. But it is a tough call, a handful of DW take on a genestealer world or 1 lone GK Justicar on a Daemonworld. Both examples are support for whose the best.

1. Agreed that scouts should be moved to troop section however I like the fact that DA scouts are better - BS & WS 4 - Perhaps the cost for scouts should be higher than Tacticals because of gaining infiltrate. This would also move the sniper rifle to a choice at no cost with the only upgrades being camo cloak and heavy bolter/ML as cost choices.
2. Sammael needs the most work as his current effectiveness and cost do not make him worthwhile.
3. Librarians need leadership 10 and I would propose some new psychic abilities. Perhaps make them work on units -
a. If they don't get stubborn perhaps a spell that provides stubborn in a 12" radius.
b. A spell that allows one unit to consider all its shots twin-linked.
c. A spell that allows them to target an opposing unit that must then make any morale test on 3d6.
d. A spell that increases the AP of all weapons in one unit by 1.
e. A spell that increases the ROF of all weapons by one.
f. A spell that increases the S of all weapons by one.

Note that all these options are designed to enhance DA fire with the exception of the stubborn and the morale roll.

bigyounk wrote:A few idea's from a fellow DA fanatic.

In the current codex Azrael has a one handed relic blade for all intents and is armed with both the combi-plasma and a bolt pistol. Of all the SC in the current codex he is the one that needs little change to bring him in line with the rest of the SM chapter masters. Only change I would make is to his stat line. Although the move D6+1 units after deployment is a cool idea, maybe a bit overpowered. I like D3+1 better.

Belail needs the Iron Halo and Eternal Warrior. Other wise just bring his stat line in line with other SM Captains.

Ezekial need to be brought in line with other chapters chief librarians. Otherwise his powers are cool and his gear is good. Make him able to use 2 powers a turn as well. DO NOT change DA Iron Halo rules!

Sammael is also in need of the stat line change. But the only other change I would make is remove his Eternal Warrior rule and maybe replace it with FNP.

No one has thought to bring back Asmodi? The Interrogator Chaplain for the DA should be represented.

And going back through the editions the DA should have a point reduction or outright free upgrade on everything plasma and should have the Stubborn rule as their Chapter Tactic.

Bring back the hunt for the fallen rule, though this would involve adding Cypher back into the CSM codex.

Scouts should be moved to the troops section, Venerable dreads need BS 5, but otherwise the DA units are fine as they are. Add the thunderfire cannon and Ironclad Dread but keep the current Vets. No need for Vanguard or Sternguard.

As for Deathwing being the best Termies in the game well read Deathwing and the Grey Knight series and see for yourself. But it is a tough call, a handful of DW take on a genestealer world or 1 lone GK Justicar on a Daemonworld. Both examples are support for whose the best.

I think that the Grey Knights have the best termies, but from the fluff it states the DA have, as i said, this may be an in universe perspective though, so from the guy saying it, the Grey knights dont exist.

will add Iron Halo to Belial, however i feel adding EW will just make another Lysander.

D3+1 will be fairer for Azrael

Sammael is the next one i will do

Show me any fluff that states DA have a preferance or superior ablility to use plasma weapons, I have always seen this as a player added thing (which i do myself) but will love to be proven wrong

Asmodi... i think you will all like Asmodai
Hunt the Fallen will be part of Asmodai's rules

There will be no company vets, only diferent termy units, and mortis dreads

Look in older DA Codex's for the Plasma preference and Stubborn. I believe it was 3rd ed they were Stubborn.

As for Belail with EW it is a fluff thing for his surviving with what would normally be mortal wounds.

Sammael makes Ravenwing Squads troop choices and his abilities are on par with the Khan, keep Rites of Battle and maybe add a Relic Blade his points are about right. If Belail doesn't get EW Sammael should keep it. And his rules should specifically state he is a member of the Ravenwing for those damn RAW people. As it is there is an argument he does not get the Ravenwing rules.

Hunt for the Fallen under Asmodi would be perfect. Maybe add a Cypher model which is an objective for all Inner Circle models. Rule would be: If army includes Asmodi and at least one unit of Inner Circle, ie: DW or Ravenwing, then place Cypher as an objective. Only Inner Circle units may hold the "Cypher" objective. If no Inner Circle holds the objective Cypher escapes and is not counted for scoring purposes.

Formosa wrote:Show me any fluff that states DA have a preferance or superior ablility to use plasma weapons, I have always seen this as a player added thing (which i do myself) but will love to be proven wrong

I believe it was the previous DA codex that allowed Plasma Cannons for tacticals and it was stated that due to the age of the chapter, it had a higher prevalence of the technology.
Then the new SM codex came out and handed that ability to anyone.

On a personal note, I would like to see plasma weaponry be a default of DA with a note to making it cost efficient enough to give up melta spamming for a DA force. Perhaps cost PC at the equivalent of ML and plasma guns and pistols at +10 or even +5 cost.

This allows you to stay away from duplicating sternguard or vanguard vets to the list.

Speaking of both of these, I would like to NOT see the DA get either of them rather, I would like to see Ravenwing given +1 A like all veterans are given and then perhaps a mix of special weapon and power weapon choices to serve as the generic SM has vanguards and sternguard do their elite choice. It would help ravenwing stand out as supreme bikers so while any SM can take a captain on a bike and take a bike based army, it can never have a concentration of special weapons and power weapons to match a ravenwing and the fact that ravenwing gets +1 A would make them more of a handful in HTH. Also, the ravenwing speeders need to be brought in line with generic SM speeders. They are no more effective, have less options and cost more. This needs to be addressed.

Dark Angels can't get a codex anymore. I don't oppose it objectively, but it's just no longer tenable for Dark Angels to be much besides special characters of the regular Space Marine codex.

All of their specialized gear has already been subsumed; S6 power weapons, Two-gun dreadnoughts, plasma cannons, etc.

Their specialist troops, bikes and terminators, are two of the very small number of things that regular marines do better than Blood Angels and Space Wolves.

Codex Marines have become Dark Angels, it's just missing their characters.

DarknessEternal wrote:Dark Angels can't get a codex anymore. I don't oppose it objectively, but it's just no longer tenable for Dark Angels to be much besides special characters of the regular Space Marine codex.
.

By that same logic - we should subsume Codex SW and Codex BT and Codex BA. Most of Codex BA can be handled by special character allowances or unlocking priviledges. *i.e. A captain with a jump pack unlocks assault marines as a troop choice. Lemmartes allows conversion of troops or assault marines to death company.

The problem I have is that all 3 of the variants of Codex SM are assault based armies - admittedly doing it through a different means but nevertheless the end result is an army that excells in HTH. Admittedly the broken nature of some of codex SW and BA allow for shooty builds that make a SM envious but at their core the three "variants" all follow the same theme = ASSAULT CONQUERS ALL.

Where I see the DA niche is taking a different take of victory through firepower. Perhaps with plasma. Perhaps with stubborn.

I think a valuable discussion could be started on how to combine all the space marine codecies into one codex would be valuable though. This - in and of itself - would reduce the pressure on the game by going from 14 different codexes to 10 as I wince at specialists like GH getting a new codex - ( A specialized force geared to confronting demons being bastardized to be an effective standalone force) Personnally I would like to see them go to two or three codexes . Codex - Imperium and Codex - Xenos and charge us 50+ bucks for each of them and edit and revise them on an annual basis or at worst a bi-annual basis. It would lead to a detachment of the rules from the new product release and also to less problems with a new version of the rules. (i.e. We are into year two of 5th Edition and still have addressed only one third of the codecies to bring them into competitive line.

Well history proves you wrong. 2nd edition had "Angels of Darkness" BA and DA shared that codex, 3rd had Codex DA and DA again got their own in 4th ed. So it is quite possible there will be another DA codex in the future.

Also 2-3 codex's would be a horrible idea. It would ruin the variety of the game. I say more codex's. For the damn price we pay for them GW could put out one a month. I mean how hard is it to update codex's. The baseline information is already there for almost every army so it is a matter of tweaking it a bit.

bigyounk wrote:Well history proves you wrong. 2nd edition had "Angels of Darkness" BA and DA shared that codex, 3rd had Codex DA and DA again got their own in 4th ed. So it is quite possible there will be another DA codex in the future.

Also 2-3 codex's would be a horrible idea. It would ruin the variety of the game. I say more codex's. For the damn price we pay for them GW could put out one a month. I mean how hard is it to update codex's. The baseline information is already there for almost every army so it is a matter of tweaking it a bit.

Agreed IF they would put out one codex a month but the proven reality is one every 3 to 4 months. That puts us at a 4 year time frame to address every codex and with a proven track record of a new edition of the core rules every 3 to 4 years it puts it at risk of being a 5 year timeframe to address every codex because it is almost written in stone that a new edition of the rules will result in Codex IG and Codex SM being address early in the new edition process.

My statement is if the worst I had to deal with as a 12-month process of my codex being addressed, I would find it more amenable than a new fluffy specific codex coming out every four years. I also think a side benefit would be much less problems with codex creap. So I am saying address a codex on a one-per-month basis or a mega codex that comes out every year would be vastly superior to the current 4 to 5 year update system we have today.

DAaddict wrote:*stuff*

You misinterpreted what I was saying. My point is that if Dark Angels receive a codex that emphasizes what they used to have*, there will no longer be a reason for anyone to play Codex Space Marines. Every aspect of that codex will be done better in some other codex.

Even your suggestions are some of the things that make Codex Space Marines a viable option over Blood Angels and Space Wolves. If those things move to Dark Angels, why bother with Codex Marines at all?

*Note, Dark Angels have been universally pissed on ever since 2nd edition when they were the most overpriced marines in an age where all marines were overpriced.

They've lost their special gear. Everyone gets assault cannons on landspeeders, twin-autocannon dreadnoughts, plasma cannons, S6 power weapons.

They've lost their special rules. Army-wide Stubborn marines are frequent, terminator troops exist in 2 other codices, Codex Marines get bike troops.

They've lost their background. Dark Angels were the 2nd greatest military legion, only slightly behind the Luna Wolves (HH books says it's Ultramarines now, and place Emperor's Children and Death Guard still ahead of them). Lion El'Jonson was the greatest military mind of the Primarchs (now Horus and Guilliman are definately, some others maybe). Azrael was the unequivocally greatest general in the current setting (strategy rating 6 when that was indicator of all things tactics wise, and he was the only character in the game with that).

Their primarch went from the best military mind of his age, to a jerkass wishy-washy traitor who set his own men against each other at all times.

For cripes sake, they spent the entirety of the 13th Black Crusade either not participating, or directly attacking other Imperial forces.

Do you really want a new DA codex? Things are only going to get worse for them.

DarknessEternal wrote: Do you really want a new DA codex? Things are only going to get worse for them.

Well I am ever optimistic that DA will not be the experimental codex it was the last time. The DA codex in its present form was competitive versus the Codex SM of the time but it was definitely sh##canned when the new Codex SM came out. Basically Codex DA could be competitive against all at that time. It was when the new SM codex came out and stomped on every advantage that DA had. The cost of vehicles, the semi-intelligent machine spirit, the more effective stormshields and better versions of characters, ld 10 librarians with nasty awesome abilities. (Sammiel vs Khan - same cost but one provides bonuses for units and can join units while the other is a landraider in points waiting to die.)

I would agree that with the exception of DW and RW there is little to go with being a DA other than a 5-man squad gets a special weapon albeit SW can do the same...

this is not a debate on whether or not the DA codex needs to be part of the smurf codex, if you want that debate please post one in the general or background area.

Anyway.

Sammael. Master of the Ravenwing 170pts
WS 6
BS5
S 4
T 5
W 3
I 5
A 3
LD 10
SV 2+/4++
Wargear: The Raven Sword: Relic Blade.
Jetbike, Iron Halo
Solar Cannon: Plasma cannon, Heavy 2, gets hot
Admantine mantle/Ravenwing jetbike: adds +1 toughness to profile, this is taken into account when calculating ID
Special Rules: Rites of Battle
Fearless
Master of The Ravenwing: May Take Ravenwing Tactical sqauds as troops.
INDEPENDENT CHARACTER!!
We tested this updated Sammael in our game tonight, we took out EW and made his
T base 5, this seemes to work well (untill i got splatted by a vindicator)

Ravenwing Command Sqaud (5 man) 170pts
ws 4
bs 4
s 4
t 4 (5)
w 1
i 4
a 2
ld 9
sv 3+
Same as current ravenwing bikes options and wargear.
Apothecarie 30pts
Banner 20pts
Company Champion 15pts

Bikes with 1 attack cost 25. Your bikes with 2 attacks are cheaper. This is not acceptable.

Your Sammael is 180 points out of Codex Space Marines, but he his bike flies, he has 2 Plasma Cannons, Rites of Battle, Fearless and Eternal Warrior. Same conclusion.

You've made Weaken Resolve an instant win button against any non-Fearless army.

Everything else is too cheap.

sorry i worded weaken resolve wrong, just looked in my 3rd Ed DA codex, i will sort that out oops.

and again i fluffed on the bike unit, looking in my notepad i just put the command sqaud in lol, i will put the proper price on it

during the playtests Sammael at 205 was too much for his abilities (they look good on paper) and we all came to the same answer (sort of) that 150 was fair for an "Average combat" character and an "average fire support" unit.
however i will up it to 170, are any of you actually testing these characters out? if so please put your ... imput in

Why do you think Sammael should get a 10 point discount to get all of those things? He's 180 points with existing gear. Your modifications have to added to that number at a minimum.

all characters get a discount on there wargear and special rules, as i said we have playtested this character, these points accurately portray his abilities on the field.

Please playtest it and then comment, as at the moment darkness your response seems like a knee jerk, ignore the discount etc. play him at 205 then 150 then 170 and you will agree his points are correct.

Formosa wrote:all characters get a discount on there wargear and special rules,

Please find me even one character that gets over 50 extra points of gear for free.

Wow, almost weeks with nothing and now all of this!

I have a suggestion, like how the blood angels have 2 chaplain options, we should keep our two chaplain options, Interrogator chap in HQ, regular chap in elite. But perhaps a new level of Librarian, Interrogator Librarian, in HQ, and Librarian in Elite.

Maybe the Int Lib gets access to some 'mind powers' that the regular lib doesnt, like effecting enemy moral, mind worm, weaken resolve, etc.

See my suggestions for Librarian firepower modifiers but I also like the idea of morale modifying spells for DA librarians - either to the detriment of my opponent or to the benefit of the DA.

yeah that is the idea i am already going for with DA librarians, enemy morale hurters

darkness: i changed it, it 10 point reduction, and for examples look at the Tactical sqauds free stuff, free frag/kraks on characters etc.
like i said before "Have you TRIED it?" give it a go and then come back to me, you will see the points are fair.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asmodai, Interogator chaplain
WS 5
BS 5
S 4
T 4
W 2
I 5
A 2
LD 10
SV 3+/4++
Wargear: The Blades of Reason: for every unit Asmodai (and his unit) destroy in close combat, they gain a kill point (I.E they are considered 1 unit for the KP)
Czozius arcanum:power weapon, The Redeemer:Bolt pistol, with hellfire rounds
The Black pearls: To charge Asmodai or his unit, you must pass a LD check, if failed you cannot charge this turn.

Special Rules: Hunt the Fallen: Select 1 enemy IC, white down its name in secret, this character "Knows something".
If Any DW, RW or Asmpdai are within assault range they must charge the chosen IC AND must direct ALL there attacks against him, The Chosen IC is worth 1 KP, or counts as an additional objective in those corresponding missions. Asmodai May Re-Roll all failed hit and wound roll against the selected character
Litinies of hate. Fearless
Holy Relic: Asmodai may once per game reveal the holy relic, all Friendly units within 12" gain +1 attack for the Game turn.

I dont understand what you mean by the killpoint stuff, wouldent they all ready count for a kill point? Do you mean to say they count as extra kill points?

I had a thought for weaken resolve. It could have a few effects, either -3/-2 LD to the unit for making LD checks that turn, or they roll 3d6 and choose the two highest for LD checks that turn, an additional effect I think could be applied, would be that it removes Fearless and stubborn from a unit for that turn (without including the other effect). So against normal units it makes them more prone to failing checks, and even against the most stubborn/fearless foes it makes them lose faith and open to the possibility to run away.