Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Having just finished reading all of Ailaros' battle reports, it got me to thinking that I could apply many of the same tactics to SoB BSSes.

Running at 20 models with 2 specials of either Meltas and/or Flamers/H. Flamers, and a matching Combi Weapon and Power Sword or Eviscerator, Melta Bombs, and BoSL on the VSS, you get much the same as you would from an IG blob squad similar to how Ailaros runs them but with several added benefits for the slight increase in points:

BS4 shooting 17ish Bolters, LD 9 with optional Stubborn, Acts of Faith (particularly Hand of the Emperor in CC and Divine Guidance in both CC and Shooting), and a 3+ Armor Save. As the squad gets diminished, they also get access to the other Acts of Faith. Depending on how the VSS is kitted out, she could be either CC oriented with Eviscerator, or BP and PW, or she could be shooting oriented with a Combi Weapon that meshes well with the Squad's special weapons.

The SoB have the same sweet zone as the IG Blob squad, but don't necessarily want to charge in like the IG. Rapid firing 17ish BS4 Bolters with the possible use of Divine Guidance sounds like it would be much fun.

In addition, they could be run with the WH Priests, which are NOT IC's and function in the same way as their IG counterparts in Ailaros' lists.

Now the downsides as I see them:

The SoB BSSes would be more expensive to put down less power weapon attacks than an IG power blob. Without Commissars, SoB have no access to re-roll failed Morale tests, so one failed LD 9 test could see a whole squad swept. This could be mitigated with a Scared Banner, but that would make them Fearless, and is generally not as good as being Stubborn. They are still T3, WS3, I3, W1 models. SoB blobs do not get to make use of orders. SoB Blobs max out at 20 models on their own, whereas IG are usually 20+ models for much fewer points.

Running just one of these squads kitted out with 17 x Bolters, Flamer, H. Flamer, Priest, Rosarius, Laspistol, Eviscerator, VSS, BoSL, BP, and Eviscerator costs 372 points with almost 1/4 to 1/3 of that in the Priest alone.

Keeping it not so much CC oriented with 17 x Bolters, Flamer, H. Flamer, VSS, BoSL, Melta Bombs, and a Combi-Flamer has the cost at a much more reasonable 272, but with much less CC capability. One could also switch out the Combi-Flamer for a PW and Brazier of Holy Fire for a few more points thus retaining the one shot Flamer template while adding an extra CC attack and ignoring Armor Saves for those 3 attacks from the VSS.

So with my wall of text over, Dakka community, what is thought of SoB BSS Blob squads as a tactic?

Sounds like it could work out, but is it better than spamming sisters in imolators?

The problem with SoB blobs is that they do not have enough offensive output in CC. IG blobs can have a few models with power weapons, but you do not have that with sisters. Plus, IG can have more models that can counter-charge effectively, while sisters have none.

They are also much more expensive and will consistently lose to an equal number of points in CC. Plus, as you mentioned, it only takes one failed leadership test to lose all those points.

I used to try 20 person sister squads but all they did was either get shot a lot or lose combat a lot. My VSS never could recover any points with her Eviscerator and her two WS3 attacks missed...a lot.

Also, you do not need both Eviscerators and Meltabombs: chose one or the other.

Edit: Also, sisters cost more than twice the points per model so they are not as expendable. So I really do not think it will work.

^ agreed. One of the biggest advantages we have is our (relative) speed, given Immos as transports and tons of assault weapons. I think slowing down could be beneficial in some situations, but not enough that a footslogging SoB list would really be a very competitive all-comers list.

It might be possible, but check the math. I would, but I don't have access to a WH codex.

Guard are not the only army that can do power blobs, but only guard do power blobs in the way that guard do power blobs. CSM, for example, can also replicate the blob, but it doesn't behave in the EXACT same way. For example, it relies more on regular attacks (being WS4 S4) than it does on the power weapons, while any regular attacks you get with a guard blob are more a happy bonus.

Likewise, I'd bet a bunch of fearless 3+ Sv ladies with an eviscerator could probably do a fair amount. I've been told it's the cheapest way to field a power-armor horde. Once again, though, I'd need some specs to say for sure.

Ailaros wrote:It might be possible, but check the math. I would, but I don't have access to a WH codex.

Guard are not the only army that can do power blobs, but only guard do power blobs in the way that guard do power blobs. CSM, for example, can also replicate the blob, but it doesn't behave in the EXACT same way. For example, it relies more on regular attacks (being WS4 S4) than it does on the power weapons, while any regular attacks you get with a guard blob are more a happy bonus.

Likewise, I'd bet a bunch of fearless 3+ Sv ladies with an eviscerator could probably do a fair amount. I've been told it's the cheapest way to field a power-armor horde. Once again, though, I'd need some specs to say for sure.

If your group allows it, why not field zealots to supplement the sisters? Zealots are the cheapest way to get multiple eviscerators, and the fact that each pt of combat resolution they lose by gets ADDED to their leadership gives them a really fanatical characteristic appropriate to the army...

Locally, we still allow inducted IG squads...so in the current gladiator league I am participating I have an inducted platoon to fight alongside my WH units....and the sisters get to borrow the chimeras of the inducted squad by embarking in them on the first turn (as they cannot start the game inside the chimeras)...

freddieyu1 wrote:

If your group allows it, why not field zealots to supplement the sisters? Zealots are the cheapest way to get multiple eviscerators, and the fact that each pt of combat resolution they lose by gets ADDED to their leadership gives them a really fanatical characteristic appropriate to the army...

Locally, we still allow inducted IG squads...so in the current gladiator league I am participating I have an inducted platoon to fight alongside my WH units....and the sisters get to borrow the chimeras of the inducted squad by embarking in them on the first turn (as they cannot start the game inside the chimeras)...

I believe that you've always been able to do so. If you mean Armored Fist squads, then that is a nice little concession, but you could always take infantry platoons.


It's a great idea in 2000+ points games, too. A couple of platoons with heavy weapons teams makes up for a lot of firepower (esp. with 3 exorcists or even 2 Exo's and a LR if you like to live risky), giving your mobile Sisters a lot more flexibility, and your Seraphim tons more survivability in the form of more priority targets for the oppo. Of course, if your circle lets you take Zealots, then they are the fluffier and funnier choice.

I don't see it mentioned but with a priest attached your BSS may not rapidfire their bolters as they are considered always moving. Bummer really since they are sweet but are fundamentally useless to the standard SoB doctrine(now if you could just attach them to arco's or give them jumppacks to roll with seraphs... repentia are a logical choice but with zero delivery option it is very dicey)

Alright, so looking it over, I think you'd do something like...

battle sister squad (20)
- veteran sister superior with power stake, bolt pistol, book of st. lucious

19 battle sisters with close combat weapons, bolt pistols, 2 meltaguns

priest with eviscerator

for 333 points. List building starts with 3 of them

Against horde armies, you may or may not offload some bolt pistols, depending on dispositions. When you charge in, you use "the passion".

19 ladies put down 55 I5 attacks, followed up by 4 power weapons. This kills 16 guardsmen. The 44 remaining guardsmen attack back (assuming an armor save wasn't forced onto the commissar), killing 4. The eviscerator then kills the blob down to two models. Needless to say, the fight between 12 guardsmen and 17 sisters will end poorly for the blob.

Against MEq, you turn on divine guidance. 20 tac marines strike first, killing 3 sisters. The remaining sisters put down 48 attacks, of which 12 are hits with AP1. The end result is 4 armor saves, and 6 invul saves. Even without using more faith points, the remaining 15 sisters+priest are likely to beat the remaining 13 tac marines, and you can always spend more faith points to make sure that happens.

Against MC's, you throw down "the hand of the emperor". 55 S6 attacks aren't going to be kind to whatever monstrous creature you attack, and if it has psychic abilities (like mephiston, trygons, etc.), the power spike will rack up wounds in an awful hurry.

Basically, it's possible to do close combat SoB well, the only problem is that it's really rather expensive, so I don't know how well this would actually work below 1500 points. Also, you'd have to make HEAVY use of faith points in the right circumstances. On the plus side, the only thing that these ultradeath squads would have a hard time against is skimmers, and witch hunters come with excorsists, so...

Ailaros, some issues...

To get 'the passion'(+2 int), 'light of the emperor'(fearless)or 'spirit of the martyr'(inv saves) activated you need a 20/21+ on 2d6(3d6 pick 2 with imagifier).. not gonna happen. Tho I wish faith worked like that

For firing 'divine guidance'(ap1 on wound6's) 'hand of the emperor'(+2 str @ int1)I would dump the imagifier because rolling under squad size @20 is auto success for a long time.

The last point actually makes this sorta tempting... however I still lobby against preists since they kill rapidfire outright

Okay, so not all the way on top of witch hunters. Perhaps 6 squads of 10? I suppose that would still be difficult, though. I thought there was some way to make faith rolls easier.

As for priests killing rapid fire, I'd assume that everyone would drop their boltguns for bolt pistols and CCW's anyways.

In any case, I have no idea how well this would work, but it's at least vaguely theoretically sound.

Very interesting so far, just thought I'd add that if you do throw in a Sacred Banner to make the unit fearless this isn't a bad thing at all. Sisters are much better at absorbing any inccured armour saves from fearless than IG blobs.

However, the use of divine guidance from a shooting perspective has great potential in a blob squad I think. I'd be hesitant to swap them for CC and bolt pistols.

19 (minus VS) sisters rapid fire against 51 IG blob squad.
38 shots leaves around 24 hits, 16 kills with AP5. IG charge with 35 models, sisters use Divine Guidance. Normal IG kill 5, power weapons kill 6? Normal sisters kill 3, power weapon kills 2. This leaves 30IG and 9 sisters. Okay, that doesn't look too pretty, though the sisters would have had a few more points to play around with.

Only the VSS gets bolt pistola and CCW... no option to kit regular sisters thusly... also power stake is inquisitor only; unless you intended to say combi stake xbow which is open to all armory users

As for my take on SoB blob(admittedly a new topic for me)...

20 BSS
Flamer/HvyFlamer vs horde but I prefer 2x melta
+vss w/ storm bolter, BoSL & meltabomb

Spam the hell out of divine guidance at range and CC, since it is a sure thing(only auto fails on 12 at that squad size) even without the imagifier.

I know it seems simpleton tactics wise but the tricks with priests are not worth the points cost when it guts the meat of what is the best that SoB has to offer. Also I think a combi or storm bolter is the best weapon for a VSS to add to squad dynamic. Hell I would kit with stormbolters if I could get more than 2 stormbolters on the basic sisters and DG from 24in even better... but meh no luck.

Thanks for the food for thought

Okay, the reason I started this topic was for trying to make this idea work at 2500 points, specifically with 'Ard Boyz in mind. Here's what I have come up with for a SoB Blob list:

HQ:

221
Canoness, BoSL, Cloak of St. Aspira, Frags, Melta Bombs, Inferno Pistol, Power Weapon
Celestian Retinue, Frags, 2 x Meltaguns, 2 x Bolters, VSS, Melta Bombs, Combi-Melta

264
Canoness, BoSL, Cloak of St. Aspira, Frags, Melta Bombs, Inferno Pistol, Power Weapon
Celestian Retinue, Frags, Flamer, H. Flamer, 2 x Bolters, Sacred Banner of the Order Militant, VSS, Melta Bombs, Combi-Flamer

Elites:

125
Celestian Squad, Frags, 2 x Meltaguns, 2 x Bolters, VSS, BoSL, Melta Bombs, Combi-Melta

118
Celestian Squad, Frags, Flamer, H. Flamer, 2 x Bolters, VSS, BoSL, Melta Bombs, Combi-Flamer

118
Celestian Squad, Frags, Flamer, H. Flamer, 2 x Bolters, VSS, BoSL, Melta Bombs, Combi-Flamer

Troops:

279
BSS, 17 x Bolters, 2 x Meltaguns, VSS, BoSL, Melta Bombs, Combi-Melta

279
BSS, 17 x Bolters, 2 x Meltaguns, VSS, BoSL, Melta Bombs, Combi-Melta

279
BSS, 17 x Bolters, 2 x Meltaguns, VSS, BoSL, Melta Bombs, Combi-Melta

272
BSS, 17 x Bolters, Flamer, H. Flamer, VSS, BoSL, Melta Bombs, Combi-Flamer

272
BSS, 17 x Bolters, Flamer, H. Flamer, VSS, BoSL, Melta Bombs, Combi-Flamer

272
BSS, 17 x Bolters, Flamer, H. Flamer, VSS, BoSL, Melta Bombs, Combi-Flamer

Total: 2499 points
15 Faith Points

10 Meltaguns, 5 Combi-Meltas, 6 Flamers, 6 H. Flamers, 6 Combi-Flamers, 112 Bolters, 2 Inferno Pistols

147 models

Thoughts?

That's crazy. I've thought about doing it before, but that's just mean.

If you're going to do it, make sure the Celestian Superior gets a Eviscerator. (3+ to hit always)

How many girls are you putting in your Celestian squads, btw?

Something I was playing with in my 'walking sisters' army was an inducted power blob to run in front and soak attacks. Or even more evil, using the sisters as cover for one or more power blobs. muhahaha

All the Celestian Squads are at the minimum of 5; there were no points to add more to any of them. If I were to add more, it would be to the retinue squad with the banner first to provide more ablative wounds. There certainly weren't points left over for Eviscerators. I have thought of possibly dropping some of the BoSL for some points, or not upgrading the Celestians to VSS as they are already Faithful. My role for the Celestians are to provide additional faith and act as screening units for the rest of the army, mainly the Blobs. As much as a great idea it would be, I want to keep it SoB only, no IG allies, no =I=.

I like the size of your bss squads, 20 seemed a bit excessive to me as well while I was thinking this over late last night. Meta@midnight its worse than a gallon of coffee.

I can't seem to figure out how to get the best out of celestians myself, seraphs have always been more effective for me... likley that is because since I got back into 40k most my games have been against big nids and IC heavy Vanilla marines; which sadly negates the 'holy hatred' to hit bonus.

edweird wrote:I like the size of your bss squads, 20 seemed a bit excessive to me as well while I was thinking this over late last night. Meta@midnight its worse than a gallon of coffee.

...But my BSS are 20 strong, unless I'm misunderstanding you.

My concern is the same. SoB blobs will not win combat or do significant damage to CC units and do not hit hard enough for a significant counter-charge.

I tried horde sisters and it never worked. The lack of mobility was crippling and they cannot grind down dangerous units. You would usually have to react to your opponent

It could possibly work in combination with IG, but I have little faith that it would work with sisters only. With IG, you have sacrificial units available.

@AdeptSister: Ideally the actual BSS would not be in combat. My plan as it is is to screen the BSS with the sacrificial Celestian Squads. I would with moving hopefully getting a round of shooting with the BSS before the Celestians in front are assaulted. If the enemy are in transports, blow them up with the front line Melta Celestian squad then mass bolter fire on the contents that spill out. The only units I want to be in CC are the Celestians to lose on their turn and get swept or run, or Blob BSS that are engaging an already whittled down opponent. I honestly see Divine Guidance being a very important part of my army for the Blob BSS, hence the high Faith Point total and the sacrificial Celestians to get some faith back.

I really do appreciate the feedback though. How did you run horde SoB? What were your lists like? Aside from mobility and seemingly forced into a reaction based role, what other short comings did you find with such a list? Was this in 5th edition that your experience is from? What were your biggest threats/problems for your horde SoB? What did you do to possibly overcome them? How much did Acts of Faith play a role for you?

I am honestly interested in your response to better help me understand the ins and outs of such a list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Having reread your first post on the issue, I have a few more questions if you wouldn't mind.

AdeptSister wrote:The problem with SoB blobs is that they do not have enough offensive output in CC. IG blobs can have a few models with power weapons, but you do not have that with sisters. Plus, IG can have more models that can counter-charge effectively, while sisters have none.

I'll admit that I don't expect SoB Blobs to perform up to the standard that IG Blobs have done, at least as far as CC is concerned. My intent is to run SoB Blobs but not as an IG Power Blob would, but more as a mobile massed gun line, eschewing CC for shooting. Any thoughts on running SoB this way as opposed to as IG Power Blobs would be helpful.

AdeptSister wrote:They are also much more expensive and will consistently lose to an equal number of points in CC. Plus, as you mentioned, it only takes one failed leadership test to lose all those points.

As I mentioned before, I don't plan to go off charging straight into CC. What did you find in your experience that would cause so much trouble for SoB with 3+ Armor Saves, and possible use of Divine Guidance and Hand of the Emperor in CC that at least would try to give CC units some trouble?

EDIT: I really didn't like the idea of a large squad like I have in mind being swept as we both acknowledged, so I did end up adding the Sacred Banner in to mitigate that threat. I have the BoSL on all squads still just in case they are outside of that bubble or the Banner Bearer dies.

AdeptSister wrote:I used to try 20 person sister squads but all they did was either get shot a lot or lose combat a lot. My VSS never could recover any points with her Eviscerator and her two WS3 attacks missed...a lot.

Also, you do not need both Eviscerators and Meltabombs: chose one or the other.

What did you get shot by that would cause a 20 model SoB Blob that much trouble? The worst I can think of would be AP 2 or 3 large blasts out of cover or an extreme amount of shooting to overcome the SoB armor save. Was cover a problem for your SoB Blobs? What were you losing CC to? Were you assaulting them or they you? Were you generally able to shoot up the enemy first, or did they always get the drop on your SoB? What thoroughly trashed you SoB Blobs in CC? Again the only things I can think of are completely unharmed dedicated assault units, high I armor save ignoring attacks, or just sheer overwhelming numbers. Were Acts of Faith unable to mitigate some of those issues for you?

I did take your advice and dropped the Eviscerators for Melta Bombs as opposed to running both. I see the error of my ways there.

AdeptSister wrote:Edit: Also, sisters cost more than twice the points per model so they are not as expendable. So I really do not think it will work.

I don't consider my BSS Blob squads as expendable as the IG do theirs. I would be willing to have 1 or 2 maybe used in that capacity if absolutely needed and is the reason I would run 6 squads. The small Celestian squads on the other hand... Also, how many Blobs did you run and at what point levels? I could maybe see this scaling down to a few smaller point levels, but I think it would work best at higher levels with the full 6 Blobs. Thank you again for the input.

Oops missread your shorthand in my own slowed dialect... at 2.5k full strength squads make good sense to me.

During my attempt at sleep deprivation last night I went with 17woman squads at 1500 which is where I always start with my list builds.

Feeling kinda derp-mode for the misunderstanding still.

Anyhow I approve of the idea of using the celestians as speedbumps and letting them kenny for the free faithpoint.

One thing that has played a factor for me in foot-list attempts is T3. 3+ is an awesome save, but we're usually taking at least double (feels like triple in massed fire) the wounds of Marines. That's a lot of saves, even in power armor.

@edweird: No problem. I have been horribly ill and with migraine headaches, so I may have very well misunderstood. I figured with 2500 to work with, max squads made sense.

Yeah, I really like the idea of the Celestian screen as it does a few things for me. It forces the enemy to either ignore the small killy unit to engage the juicy BSS behind them, or take the bait of the Celestians and deal with them first. Getting back Faith Points is just a bonus.

If you have any insights for any of the questions I asked of AdeptSister, or anyone else for that matter, please feel free to chime in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@thebaroness: What do you find to be the most problematic shooting against your footslogging SoB? Just high volume of fire, or small arms or several turns? How many models did/do you run in such squads? Again, I appreciate all input.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also have posted my list as is in the Army List Thread if anyone has any particular critiques for my lists as opposed to general SoB tactics.

It was really just high rate of fire things like heavy bolters and scatter lasers that could shoot things off the board. Missile launchers hurt pretty bad as well. A 3+ is nice, but like thebaroness said, t3 can build up wounds pretty quickly.

I played horde sisters mostly in 4th ed, so I definitely had many issues getting a chance to rapid fire. I would try to march up the field, but by the time I reached the enemy, little was left. The boosts to mobility with 5th ed might help, but I always had problems with objective games. Just about any thing that charged me could beat the sisters in CC (even at full strength) and then they would die over a few turns as most things hit and wounded on a 3+. Faith acts helped, but with each sister only having one attack each, there was a good chance that hand or divine guidance would do little.

I also had problems with Mech lists due to their greater range and speed. I fought a mech Sisters list and it was just sad. Tau beat me horribly and kroot were beating the crud out my sisters in CC. A charging squad is really dangerous.

I used to run an all foot horde with seraphim support, but while my seraphim did amazing things, my troops never felt like they pulled their weight. When C:SM came out and my Seraphim became more expensive than assault marines, my heart just sank and they went back into the case.

Now, a foot list with IG and Sob horde might work. The IG can add some CC and long range firepower and the sisters provide some nasty close range fire and meltas.

Really, it was against any army with consistent S4 or better weaponry and decent BS. Dire Avengers, vanilla SM, and DE Warriors can unleash ridiculous numbers of shots on footsloggers, and depending on whether it's a long game, or you just don't get your sixes on a DG roll, you'll find yourself rolling a lot of saves due to T3. Our effective range is just not as flexible as the Eldars, MEQ, or even Tau. We mitigate it with mech. As far as your list goes, I like it as far as footslogging lists goes. I don't necessarily know what would improve it.. I'm gonna be playing some games tomorrow so I'm gonna use your list in a around game for fun. I'll let you know what I think FWIW.

Edit: lol AdeptSister, youbeat me to it Well said.

And yeah, my runnin' lists were in 4th ed. for the most part, but I'm not sure how much actual "run" would help. We already got a the most run and gun benefit on foot that we could IMO, with so many assault weapons in the list. 6" extra movement might just be enough to get you assaulted before you want. That's another benefit to mech, "wagon-circling" and assault denial. But I digress.

Banshees, terminators and Bloodletters love SoB hordes as the first turn they can cripple the squad with average rolls. You cannot reliably use Martyr until around 7 models and it is really easy to kill a small squad with just the number of attacks.

I do like the cheapo Celestians. I used to arm a 5 person squad with the multimelta. It was not great, but at 80 pts, it was a nice speedbump that had to be killed.

Excellent. Great responses all around. I've done the Mech SoB pretty much exclusively in 5th, so I really wanted to mix it up a bit. I honestly think running in 5th will make quite a difference over 4th as Ailaros has done so with his IG blobs. I usually use Seraphim as well because I love what they can do, even as expensive as they are, but the points aren't there for them in this list. Hell, I'm even leaving out the almost mandatory 3 x Exorcists. Assuming I am not still horribly ill, I plan to test out this list on Saturday at my FLGS, but if not then I'll test it on Vassal. Or more likely, both.

@thebaroness: Yes please test out my list, as I plan to as well. I would greatly appreciate any of your findings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@AdeptSister: I thought about possibly taking Multi-Meltas as well in the Celestians, but since I mainly want them moving and forward of my BSS, I just don't see them standing still enough to make use of them. I was also toying around with the idea of running Retributors with Multi-Meltas just for the range and more Faith Points, but they were just too costly and I would still probably take Exorcists over them even if I had the points.

I'd like to make a quick note here. Yes, sisters are only T3. What you're overlooking is that they're also 2/3ds the cost, so you can bring 50% more of them.

A proper SoB horde is capable of putting down a much larger horde of power armor than other power armor armies.

Yet they still get swept in close combat. That's the first weakness: you don't have to actually kill many SoB if you can just win and sweep. Books will help with that, but if you fail a single LD 10 test ....

I don't think this is all that dangerous. Orks make green tide work because they are still dangerous in melee, even if it's all shoota boys. Sisters aren't.

You'll catch people on a 'you're fielding *what*?" and that's about it.

Its been damn long since my SoB have broke morale and been swept, almost to the point I have debated dropping the BoSLs for purity seals to break/regroup and get back into shooting again

Yeah I know its crazy but may be worth a test