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CCS - meltas + autocannon in chimera
Couple of meltavets in chimers w/ autocannons
Some infantry in chimeras with autocannons and flamers
2 vendetta
hydra
manticore
griffon

It is just mean at 1500.

What tears this apart?

Higher point games.

Can DoA get it done?

2 x Libby w/ jump pack, lance
2 x honor guard w/ 4 x melta

2 priest w/ jump pack

1 x assault squad, 2 x melta, pf
2 x assault squads, 2 x melta, 1 x melta bombs

Devs w/ 4 x ml

Combat squad the 2 non-pf ras. A libby comes down with the plain 5 man squad and lances, 5 units melta, devs shoot missles, and you have one combat squad left to grab a rear objective...

I've always had issues with drop pod armies, even with proper castling, there's just too much melta that shows up on turn 1. Hit the targets that hurt you the most, and if you're playing killpoints, then the guard player has quite a bit to give up. Also, SW longfangs really hurt all that AV 12.

Here are some things my mech guard has struggled with (most at 1500)

Troop spam CSMs in rhino. You would think it would be a good match because I have enough to play all the rhinos away. But there are so many guys and even after the rhinos go away they can run and be in my face quickly. There is one particular guy who runs this against me and I have NEVER beaten him in four games.

Pod Wolves. If I deploy I get smoked. If I reserve everything I stand a fighting chance at playing for the mission and getting by, but it’s still tough.

Blood Angels Razor Spam. Now I only played against this once so I think I would do a lot better a second time, but I had to come back hard just to get a tie.

I do think that generally any army can beat any army. Which means you can take one of these counters but if your friend plays it right and has a little luck he’ll still win. But with any army you might try reserving, hoping to come in late and then getting to an objectives and hanging on for dear life. It’s not the most exciting way to win, but your guard player won’t like losing that way either. If he loses enough maybe he’ll change his list/strategy.

scout bikers with melta bombs
wolf scouts with melta bombs
dreads in pods
missle launcher devs
blood claw spam might not do badly if properly supported.

basically anything to threaten his parking lot on turn 1

also make sure he is filling his FOC requirements, guard have different ones, as far as I can tell if that list is accurate he has 9 or 10 chimeras(?) that seems like too many for a 1500 list with that amount of support.

If it's 8-9 chimeras that's actually pretty accurate, the guard can put 14ish vehicles on the field in 1500 points.

Yeah, that list is easily within the FOC requirements. Guard can put a silly amount of tanks on the board.

Awesome Christ wrote:If it's 8-9 chimeras that's actually pretty accurate, the guard can put 14ish vehicles on the field in 1500 points.

*makes cash register noise*

It's all part of GW's plan...

Pshaw, 14 vehicles at 1500 is nothing. An ork player can have:

KFF Big Mek
3x (3) Killa Kans w/ Rokkits
3x (3) Warbuggies with TL Rokkits
3x (6) Loota
2x (20) Shoota Boys, (2) Big Shoota, Nob, PK, BP
1x (10) Grots, Runtherder

So that's 18 vehicles, 18 rokkit shots, 18d3 autocannon shots, and 12 str5 shots. On average if you go first, you'll get 9.5 str8 hits, 12 str7 hits, and 4 str5 hits.

Just shoot at your highest priority target in range until you get something other than immobilized, then shift to another target. Killing vehicles is nice, but your main goal is to reduce their effectiveness. If it can't fire next turn, it's not a threat. If it's lost a weapon, it's threat is reduced.

Awesome Christ wrote:If it's 8-9 chimeras that's actually pretty accurate, the guard can put 14ish vehicles on the field in 1500 points.

as an IG player I know, but something didnt sit right with me, off the top of my head the valks, manticore, and hydra/griffon are almost 600 points (more if valks are upgraded), 9-10 squads in transports with plenty of upgrades in ~900 points doesn't seem right.

two words.... Dark Eldar. Thats how you can beat it.

3x 3 Dark Lance Ravagers will work well against all, but start with the big guns that can hurt your transports the most, the hydra, manticore and griffon. Once they have been dealt with so they can't shoot next turn, turn your attention to the Valks/vends and chimeras.

in a 1500 pt list, on vehicles alone, you should be able to field 14-17 Dark Lances, easily. then you worry about blasters on Warriors or Haywires Grenades on wyches, and this IG army starts sweating.

Once the vehicles are gone, its easy for DE to mop up Guardsmen at range and in melee.

I'd put Deathwing against it at 1500. Belial wtih TH/SS, Apothecary upgrade, 25 AssTerms with CML, and two MM/TML speeders.

Start two squads on the table, deepstrike two squads on top of them first turn, start shooting and bank on 2+/3+ holding out long enough to start cracking open the mech line.

If the Chimeras themselves and not the squads inside have autocannons, then Forge World rules are clearly in effect and you should counter with 3 Deathwind drop pods.

anything with outflank or the ability to deepstrike next to the big guns. drop pods work with dreads. vanguard vet squad. stuff like that. i know nids have outflankers that can kill those as well as other armies must.

I was thinking about this:
2 x Libby w/ jump pack, lance, shield or rage
2 x honor guard w/ 4 x melta

2 priest w/ jump pack

1 x assault squad, 2 x melta, pf
2 x assault squads, 2 x melta, 1 x melta bombs

Devs w/ 4 x ml

Um... I have played Dark Lance + Raider/Ravager spam about 4 times with my mech IG, at varying points levels from 1500 to 2000. I've massacred them every time.

Seriously, relying on single shot weapons from av10 open topped vehicles doesn't work. And Chimeras giggle at Lances anyway.

Also, note that these kinds of lists go very light on troops choices in order to load up on HS and FA slots. This usually means that they are relying on a strong alpha strike by just a couple of vehicles in order to carry the day.

If you can negate this alpha strike, I've seen mech guard fold in a real hurry as the guard player is forced to rely on anemic troops choices to carry the day.

odorofdeath wrote:Um... I have played Dark Lance + Raider/Ravager spam about 4 times with my mech IG, at varying points levels from 1500 to 2000. I've massacred them every time.

Seriously, relying on single shot weapons from av10 open topped vehicles doesn't work. And Chimeras giggle at Lances anyway.

Which is exactly why I said that Haywire Grenades are awesome for Mech armies, especially Mech IG of LR heavy SM. They can destroy/disable multiple vehicles in a single assault if they are castling or being a parking lot, and honestly, a 10 man wych squad with just Haywire grenades is only 120 pts..... quite cheap to be used to mess with multiple vehicles in a turn. If they die, thats why you have backups, and honestly, between the Raiders, Ravagers, Blaster troops, and haywires, you should be able to mitigate/destroy a good chunk of his army every turn, which leaves just the soft squishy insides to play with!!!, which is where your Venoms and other wyches tool for assault come in!

odorofdeath wrote:Um... I have played Dark Lance + Raider/Ravager spam about 4 times with my mech IG, at varying points levels from 1500 to 2000. I've massacred them every time.

Seriously, relying on single shot weapons from av10 open topped vehicles doesn't work. And Chimeras giggle at Lances anyway.

Then, I say that you're playing with way too little LOS blocking terrain.

Galador wrote:two words.... Dark Eldar. Thats how you can beat it.
Once the vehicles are gone, its easy for DE to mop up Guardsmen at range and in melee.

I’ve got to disagree on this one. I think mech guard is a terrible match up for Dark Eldar. To be totally fair this is all speculation on my part but I got two big reasons for it.
1. All your lance weaponry is a waste of points. AV12 everywhere is the perfect honey spot to make the lances struggle and waste the cost of their lance ability.
2. A chimera with 3 S6 multilaser shots is much cheaper and much more threatening to your raider than a raider is to it. In a shoot out the chimera is just MUCH better.

Not that certain DE builds wouldn’t do well, but using lances to get into a shoot out is a bad idea from what I can see.

Dark Eldar are a horrible matchup.

So here are the options as I see them:

DA terminator army (can do this)
BA DoA army (can do this)
Vulkan pod army (Not enough pods)
SW pod army (Not enough pods)
My own guard build (prefer not)
Eldar S6 spam (needs painted. all of it. )

So that leaves me with these:

DA

Belial - lightning claws

5 x Terminators - th/ss, banner, apothecary, cyclone
5 x Terminators - th/ss cyclone
5 x Terminators - th/ss cyclone
5 x Terminators - th/ss cyclone
5 x Terminators - th/ss cyclone

Speeder, typhoon, mm
Speeder, mm

BA

2 x Libby w/ jump pack, lance, shield or rage
2 x honor guard w/ 4 x melta

2 priest w/ jump pack

1 x assault squad, 2 x melta, pf
2 x assault squads, 2 x melta, 1 x melta bombs

Devs w/ 4 x ml

Thoughts on these builds?
DA - belials squad and 2 more deep strike in the opponents backfield and face, weathering the storm as best they can and then wreaking havok on the tanks.

Speeders deep strike and kill what needs dead asap. Remaining terminator squads come down where needed.

BA - 2 RAS w/o powerfist combat squad. 2 x melta in one squad, libby with the other half. That is 5 melta squads and 2 blood lance squads hitting. The big RAS lends support where needed. The devs go after the valks.

A better guard list??? lol

You have to remember the biggest issue with chimera's is the side armor. If you can get away from their front armor your good to pop it and will most likely kill half the squad in the explosion.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:

Galador wrote:two words.... Dark Eldar. Thats how you can beat it.
Once the vehicles are gone, its easy for DE to mop up Guardsmen at range and in melee.

I’ve got to disagree on this one. I think mech guard is a terrible match up for Dark Eldar. To be totally fair this is all speculation on my part but I got two big reasons for it.
1. All your lance weaponry is a waste of points. AV12 everywhere is the perfect honey spot to make the lances struggle and waste the cost of their lance ability.
2. A chimera with 3 S6 multilaser shots is much cheaper and much more threatening to your raider than a raider is to it. In a shoot out the chimera is just MUCH better.

Not that certain DE builds wouldn’t do well, but using lances to get into a shoot out is a bad idea from what I can see.

I never said that a Lance army was the best idea to use against parking lot IG. Plus, for everything that I bring that has a Dark Lance on it, I don't pay any extra for them, they are standard fair. I have only faced one Mech IG player around here and he ran all Valks/Vendettas, so not really a Mech IG list, but still, everything was hiding in Transports just about. There are many ways that a DE player can counter a Mech IG list. WWP armies with Wyches, Hellions, Grotesques and Wracks can be a very bad thing for Mech IG. Almost everything there can Hurt a tank, with the exception of wyches without Haywires, but why would you ever run them without?? 20 pts is not a big deal for the damage they can cause, and if I don't get to use them, meh, I'm usually out a max of 100 pts, which is really very little. Even the Hellions and wracks can hurt a tank, the Hellions on the charge and the Wracks once they get FC. Add in a Talos or three, or run three Ravagers, and I have a reliable tank hunting WWP army that can munch anything that is put in front of it starting reliably on turn 2. Heck, with the WWP I could even add in Reavers and make them useful against Mech IG, just maybe not REALLY useful!!!

Yea, better than his - it might not be all comers, but I can build a guard list to destroy him. 3 x manticore and 3 x vendetta to start...

The terminator build just hopes to make enough 2+ saves and the BA build hopes to live through the shooting phase after they pop 6 tanks.

That build laughs at your wwp and shoots everything that comes through it off the board. You do not want to come in in small pieces against this army. DE are just no a good matchup.

DE like tyranids and punchy armies, not guard or eldar.

What is the point of that single unit of Devs? 1500pts of IG will kill that in 1 turn, cover saves or not. If you reserve them then you miss out on at least 2 turns of shooting, which is terrible. I'd either turn it into another Assault Squad, or perhaps a couple of Land Speeders (or other similar unit that is good coming in from reserves... Predators/Baal Preds maybe). A huge advantage you have as a DoA type of list in this matchup is to only play for 3 turns by going second and deploying off the table. The Devs will only work when there are a lot of them (like 15 of them) and even then, you should expect to have big bites taken out of their numbers quickly as they're the only thing for the entire opposing army to shoot at for 2 turns.

Inigo Montoya wrote:Yea, better than his - it might not be all comers, but I can build a guard list to destroy him. 3 x manticore and 3 x vendetta to start...

The terminator build just hopes to make enough 2+ saves and the BA build hopes to live through the shooting phase after they pop 6 tanks.

That build laughs at your wwp and shoots everything that comes through it off the board. You do not want to come in in small pieces against this army. DE are just no a good matchup.

DE like tyranids and punchy armies, not guard or eldar.

Not everything has to come in from the WWP either. If you run Ravagers along with/instead of Talos, I can glance your vens and mantis while my WWP HQ moves up to drop the portal as close as he can, and anything that was held in reserve can still take a transport thaty can start empty on the board and use its lance while hiding enough of the hull behind cover to count as obscured, hence forcing you to prioritize what you want to die. I know that IG outreaches Dark Eldar for Ranged, but even with the WWP list, I can put enough firepower on the board turn one to give my WWP units a good chance to get where they need to be.

And if you didnt like that list, there are always others that can counter a Mech IG list.

Dark Eldar dont prefer punchy armies or tyranids, as they are too easy to counter. We prefer to destroy you where you feel you are strongest, and then make you wonder how we did it...

This isn't a thread for you to tout the dark eldar. Lets agree to disagree. Eldar and guard, in my experience, shoot dark eldar to death. They are not a viable counter to IG chimera spam. Please let it go!

I am afraid the DA won't weather the shooting - I am getting ready to mathhammer it out to see what happens without the dice.

Inigo Montoya wrote:This isn't a thread for you to tout the dark eldar. Lets agree to disagree. Eldar and guard, in my experience, shoot dark eldar to death. They are not a viable counter to IG chimera spam. Please let it go!

I am afraid the DA won't weather the shooting - I am getting ready to mathhammer it out to see what happens without the dice.

As a guard player. I dont like seeing CSM across the board, Another IG, or shooty blood angels. All three of these armies have a potential to give it a good show. DE get slaughtered, 25 terminators is not the answer either. Both of those kind of made me laugh when they were suggested as I love playing against those armies.

I don't have enough razorbacks for a shooty BA army, but I have the DoA build covered. I think it is better than DA, but not good enough. It should get the 2 fliers, the manticore, and another tank on the turn they drop. Then I weather the entire army shooting and by turn 4 he has no tanks and 1 have 1 squad left.

Yuck.