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Thanks everyone for all the support and help I've been getting as I build up my Mechdar army for competitive tournament play.

I've decided after many threads and suggestions to go for a Reserve Mechdar list. I think this would be the most powerful way to use the Mech list in a tournament where the opponent would be unpredictable.

Advantages:
-------------
-Alpha striking will be key. I always get to shoot first unless they reserve as well. In which case they will come in piece meal and I will come in more full force and destroy them.
-My survivability is increased since I'm "taking away turns" from my opponent to shoot and assault me.
-Objective games are even better for me because we win by contesting and our mobility. We don't table people in 5 turns normally. The way we contest and keep out mobility is by keeping our Skimmers alive. "Taking away turns" from my opponent and essentially shortening the turns the game overall has increases my chance at contesting since I will have more Skimmers alive.
-Annihilation games are one of our weaker points but since the game is essentially shortened and we get first KP choices (going for easy KP first or high priority target strike first) it should be a better game than without double Autarch.
-We don't lose 1/3rd or more of our stuff if we lose the dice roll and get chosen to go 2nd...(Yes we can still normally reserve but we come in pieces if we do it that way and I'd prefer not to feed my opponent)


Thoughts on how I built my list:
-------------------------------
-Long range fire power to maximize shooting when I come in. Other than the Fire Dragons WSs all my vehicles have 24+" range shooting. Fire Dragon's don't have it since it will probably be targeted and destroyed asap so I wanted to minimize what was on it.
-Bright Lances (2), Eldar MLs and Falcon firepower to backup my anti-AV fire power since Fire Dragons need to survive a turn to hop out and melta something. All of which can be fired 1st turn coming in from reserve after a 12" move.
-Prisms will chill back at their 60" range. To save costs I didn't give them Holofields or Spirit Stones. Few weapons should be able to hit them at their distance they will be staying at.
-Vypers as my anti-infantry with Scatter Lasers for 1st turn come in from reserve fire power. Second turn from come in I will have Scatter Lasers + Shuriken Cannons range for even more anti-infantry. Everything with Shuriken Cannons Upgrades for more anti-infantry. Secondary Light armor/transport poppers.
-In future iterations of my list I may include War Walkers as abusing the 2+ reserve roll and Infiltrating Scatter Lasers in back/side armor of vehicles is very strong tactically.


Things I'm having problems with:
-------------------------------
1) How are my Fire Dragons going to fare in this? They are amazing anti-AV/MC. Must haves in any list pretty much but how do you get them to do their job? I see it as they come in, flat out towards their intended target, star engine to get rear/side armor of their intended target. Opponents turn they get shot down, Fire Dragons get shot down and/or assaulted. There goes 200 pts...

2) I can't see a time other than when my opponent gives me turn 1 that I would NOT want to reserve. Is there any reason I would not want to reserve and make use of the powerful 2+ reserve option I have?

3) Where should the Autarch's sit? With the Fire Dragons for additional Melta fire power? Maybe 1 in the DAVU Falcon?

4) What armies do you think would give me trouble with this list? I think it's very powerful at what it does and with the right target prioritizing and use of mobility I don't see it having TOO much trouble with most armies but instead a fair fight both ways. What I mean is I see it being equal to most competitive tournament armies out there. Not overbalanced to one side like Foot Orks vs a Pie Plate, Flamer Heavy IG Mech army...

5) And of course any army list suggestions you might have. Changes? Suggestions? etc.

6) If you receive first turn should you reserve anyways to shave off 1 turn of their shooting? Or would it be better to stay on board and just hope they don't seize?



*Note: I'm 10 pts under. Trying to figure out what to do for 10 pts...
------------------------
Autarch 1
Fusion Gun 1

Autarch 1
Fusion Gun 1

Fire Dragon Squad 5
Transport: WaveSerpent 1
TL Shuriken Cannon 1
Spirit Stone 1
Star Engines 1

Fire Dragon Squad 5
Transport: WaveSerpent 1
TL Shuriken Cannon 1
Spirit Stone 1
Star Engines 1

Dire Avengers 5
Transport: WaveSerpent 1
TL Bright Lance 1
Upg: Shuriken Cannon 1
Spirit Stone 1

Dire Avengers 5
Transport: WaveSerpent 1
TL Bright Lance 1
Upg: Shuriken Cannon 1
Spirit Stone 1

Dire Avengers 5
Transport: WaveSerpent 1
TL Eldar ML 1
Upg: Shuriken Cannon 1
Spirit Stone 1

Vyper Squadron 1
Scatter Laser 1
Upg: Shuriken Cannon 1

Vyper Squadron 1
Scatter Laser 1
Upg: Shuriken Cannon 1

Dire Avengers 5

Falcon 1
Eldar ML 1
Upg: Shuriken Cannon 1
Holo-Field 1
Spirit Stone 1

Fire Prism 1
Upg: Shuriken Cannon 1

Fire Prism 1
Upg: Shuriken Cannon 1

What armies do you think would give me trouble with this list?

CSM armies with 9 Obliterators are dangerous as the latter are hard to kill and and can dish out serious damage to vehicles.
Horde armies could give you a headache since you may not have enough shots to kill them (taking cover into account).
Fast moving BA armies with FnP could herd your force into one corner and then take on Serpents with meltas and furious charge.

Hmm I'd drop the falcon for a serpent, yeah I know its less fire power but with your BL's its not as much an an issue, and they survive longer anyways, and I'd then replace the heavy spot with either a night spinner, to help out vs horde, and other foot slogging units that hurt tanks, or IMO the better choice and go for scatter laser war walkers. Coming in on a 2+ out flanking with 24 36" str 6 shots is sooo good. Dropping the vypers is worth this IMO, sure the war walkers are slower but they are not open topped, which means they may actually survive being shot at.. Lol

Can you use nightspinners in tournaments? Where do you see the rules for that model?

The Nigthspinner is a viable choice. The rules can be found in the DW issue of Dec 2009 (no warrant).

I'd swap one of your Autarch's for a farseer with guide and runes of warding. You can sit it in your scoring falcon to give yourself twin linked guns as well as table wide psychic defense to shut down opposing psychers. Pyschic defense is awesome in an all comers list for severely hindering Demon Princes, Sorcerors, Zoanthropes, Librarians, Mephiston... you get the idea. I also think that +1 to reserves is all you should really need. Remember you aren't ALWAYS reserving so there are some games where you won't even use reserves.

If you need points Star Engines aren't really worthwhile, you could probably get away with dropping those... 24 inch turbo boost is often enough, 36 inches is just greedy.

Thanks for the suggestion Akaean.

Actually that's what me and my friend have been debating. Whether 2x Autarchs or 1x + Farseer was a better choice. It's really hard trying to figure it out :/ I can't decide both have their awesome benefits and downfalls.

Dropping Star Engines would be a great way to get points I agree.

Does anyone have any other suggestions on how to "shave off points" from my list?

I'm seriously considering dropping something from the heavy and taking 3x War Walkers. With double Autarchs and WW's infiltrating with 3x scatters + shuri cans thats...really powerful and just truly makes use and abuses the strength of reserve rolls + 2xAutarchs.

errr, honestly your list is pretty cookie cutter. gun armed wave serpents with DAVU. and prism support.

If you wanted to shave off points the most common ways to do it are underslung cannons and spirit stones. They are very "what if", and when you are doing a dedicated tank spam you could funnel all of those upgrades into another tank or 2.

Otherwise the list is pretty cookie cutter as it is and there isn't much room for customization with that build.

The other main spot you could scrape some points is downgrading your two bright lance serpents to scatter lasers. You have 2 dragon squads for heavy armor, and scatter lasers do admirably against transports and such things. It also significantly ups your volume of fire against hordy things, so I'd look into that. If you can shave the points to get a 3rd dragon serpent- you'll need lances even less!

I agree with the Farseer addition.

This is very similar to my list.

Differences, I use FD for my main AV 12+ Anti tank. If you are too conservative with them you will have their transport shot down in your deployment zone. I'm not suggesting you TB them 24 towards the enemy turn 1, but I would start with a plan of moving them 12 towards the enemy every turn if you have to destroy some big nasty vehicle. Keep in mind the wave serpent proximity to the enemy is irrelevant unless they are going to assault it. Double Armor Penetrating weapons don't apply so feel free to expose Front and Side armor in order to get your FD in poisition. The best protection for the WS is target denile, positioning it so that all heavy weapons cannot fire at it for example.

I also run two night spinners since I 1 don't like prisms for anti tank due mainly to TL (plus FD are just better) and 2 the night spinners weapon effects on movement are great for anything about 5 models.

I run all scatter lasers but that is just preference. I also always go second unless it is KP and there are easy targets in the enemy list.

A farseer with stones bones BA armies and soon GK armies. Mehiston wounding himself 33% of the time when he uses a psychic power is not only funny but effective!

The stones make your army much more well rounded

I don't have any previous GW magazines I can look up the Nightspinners stats on. Also I'm not sure if the tournaments here would allow it to be used...

@Akaean: Yes the list is CC. There are only so many "top tier competitive" models we can use to maximize the efficiency of a Reserve Mechdar list...thanks for pointing that out? I agree with the Bright lances and it may go down to 1. But I want at least one for the turn i come in from reserve. My FD's aren't shooting anything the first time since more than likely they wont have range to anything that early.

@Master Melta: Thanks for the advice. That's some very good insight you gave me. I really appreciate it.

@Labmouse42: Agree that Farseer makes the list more well-rounded but for the strategy and way I'm building my list (maximizing range and 1st turn come in fire power) I think double Autarch is a must...I've had a 77% chance of coming in (BA with DoA) and failed every single roll before :/ I would like to have as high a chance as possible. I will test out both options though and see if it's worth it for me.


Thoughts on War Walkers? I'm thinking of taking out a Fire Prism to abuse the Autarchs +2 to reserve and WW's infiltrate ability. That's really powerful!

meh, I didn't mean cookie cutter in a bad way, just that the way you have your list set up doesn't really leave very many places to cut points.

Aside from Lances to Scatter lasers it is really difficult to shave points.

Depending on which side you buy into the underslung cannon / spirit stones debate, that is really the only place you could shave points to buy another dragon serpent.

So the question is this- lose cannons and spirit stones and get another dragon serpent- or keep em and play with the list as is.

3 walkers with lasers are great, just keep them far away from the enemy since they have range. Gudie them and they will eat through just about anything that is on foot or has AV less than 11.

@Master Melta: Would love to guide them but I'm pretty set on doing double Autarchs. 90% of everyone I've talked to who play tournaments or have a pretty good Eldar rep have told me double Autarch. Unless someone can drastically convince me while Farseer + Autarch is > than double I'll probably be going double Autarchs.

I'll probably drop 1 Fire Prism and take 3x War Walkers.

Anyone else?

Well, I had never good luck with Fire Prisms, even twin-linking led to mediocre results.
Therefore, I stay away from them and count on Warwalkers,
more bang for the bucks.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, I had never good luck with Fire Prisms, even twin-linking led to mediocre results.
Therefore, I stay away from them and count on Warwalkers,
more bang for the bucks.

+1

I agree. If you are twin linking them, then you are only getting 1 shot. Peee-yew.

So I'm chiming in late on this one so I'll preface with I didn't read in depth every poster above me, so I appologize if I step on toes or restate points.

Unsure of what your competitve meta is like in your area, but this list will get thrashed.. Hard.

Lots of upgrades: that are unneeded. I have echoed this time and time again in eldar listers: if you are running minmax don't takethe damn underslugs, you are forcing yourself to a speed and distance you shouldn't be even concidering. Yes, you'll get close for dragons to drop them off but what about the rest of the game? +15 for scatterlasers makes a world of differnce and star engine use shouldn't even be a consideration since you NEED those shots and proper planning with avoid the need for a 36" rush. Stones well, I find 10 pts for a "what if" on anything but a holofielder a waste ymmv.

Double autauchs reserve: is it reaaaly worth it to you to burn your 2nd hq for literally a 1 turn +17% reserve? If you plan to run the autauchs with the FD yu realize you are handing your opponent 2-3 kill points to blow up something.


Lots of flaws all over for a competitve list. You'll hands down lose a annihilation due to the shearr amount of easy kps. Objectives you have 4 scoiring units at 2k which is par for the course, but since you are running min/max if a serpent goes down you are in a world of hurt. Capture and control if you face feel no pain marines or anything with range to touch you prisms, you won't have enough to pry them off their objective

I second Dagger's statements about underslung cannons and the 2nd Autarch.
They can become a liability.

Thanks for the feedback Dagger. Any suggestions for change or what you would do for the list for more competitive? Seems you have more xp under ur belt so I'd love to hear what you would change apart from what youve suggested already cutting.

Hey Syypher, this is your research topic.

My two cents IF you drop the prism(s) for walkers I highly prefer dual EML's on them because with the low BS of the walkers the use of blast templates makes them better because If you miss against anti horde with scatterlasers thats just shots wasted whereas if your target with templates you may end up wounding another enemy unit which is always helpful.

Ya...

I think maybe cutting down the "fat" like you guys suggested and maybe adding some WWs and possibly taking a Night Spinner

Punisher91090 wrote:My two cents IF you drop the prism(s) for walkers I highly prefer dual EML's on them because with the low BS of the walkers the use of blast templates makes them better because If you miss against anti horde with scatterlasers thats just shots wasted whereas if your target with templates you may end up wounding another enemy unit which is always helpful.

Advise like this makes the Eldar gods cry. I apologize for for getting borderline rude with folks, but I get frustrated at things like this. No offense to you Punisher, you just caught me at a bad time and get the example made of.

SO essentially you are recommending taking an extra 30pts on War Walkers for small pieplate spam because it is more reliable? Speaking competitively, you are probably going to hit what? 2-3 guys with a small pieplate, we'll assume that you are hittin paydirt and nail 4. You are hitting marines the majority of the time so you are look at 50% to wound at that point and 33% bypass the save. That ist on a hit, which is 33% of the time I'm not going to play geometry and calc the scatter ratios but assume that if you are scatter, it's a big fat failure. In a vehicle heavy environment the chances of hittin another unit isn't good. You get 6 of those blasts to attempt and since he is outflanking Str 8 is a little overkill for the common side armor target and with the bs you'll average 3 pens.

Now you look at the scatter lasers 8 shots per for 24 shots. 12 will hit on average, and have a 83% to wound. Vs the blasts is a completive environment (not clubbing baby seals that think a deepstrike spiral formation is good) it's pretty much a wash and is 30 pts cheaper. For most vehicles 24 str 6 shots (12 average landing) on side armor is a hands down death sentence.

With that rant over with I'll move on. (sorry once again Punisher, wrong place wrong time)


As far as your list goes it's a common new Eldar player mistake looking list (not saying your a new player, it just has the same characteristics). We're Eldar, were overpriced, don't make stuff more expensive then it already is unless there is a clear and concise benefit to doing so. Spiritstones for example you are playing 10pts to negate a 17% change on damage. Look at how many times your are actually having damage come through on your serpents, let alone how many 2s land, and tell me if that 50pt investment was worth it. The one caveat I have recently changed my mind on is holofielded vehicles due to the nature that your stunned results are dramatically increased.

Keeping with approximately the same idea here is a list that I would recommend...

Eldrad (goes in a Falcon)
Autauch w/ PW/Fusion Gun (goes with Fire Dragons if you feel ballsie or in the non-eldrad falcon)

5 Fire Dragons
Wave Serpent w/ Scatter Lasers
5 Fire Dragons
Wave Serpent w/ Scatter Lasers

5 Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent w/ EML
5 Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent w/ EML
5 Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent w/ BL
5 Dire Avengers (in Falcon)
5 Dire Avengers (in Falcon)

Vyper w/ Scatter Laser
Vyper w/ Scatter Laser

Night Spinner w/ Holofield (yes tournie legal but clarify with TO first, rules avail on Army Builder or GW's website for PDF)
Falcon w/ EML, Stones
Falcon w/ EML, Stones


Benefits of this list:
- You can move faster because you aren't worried about 2 weapons shooting. Never move anything slower then cruising speed with the excepting of your heavies. The Falcons should be moving 6" speed to fire EML and Pulse at the longest range you physically can. The Night Spinner should be hiding as much as possible (barrage)
- More troops, yay
- Harder to earn KPs
- Eldrad gives you divination, so if you do find yourself going first and staying on the board you have a curveball to toss. Also gives you Runes of Warding and guide for both your Falcons. (3 Twinlinked s8 48" shot from each? yes please.)
- Autauch can stay in the fire dragon's vehicle when they get out to make people think twice about simply assaulting the fire dragons or stay in the falcon adjacent to Eldrad incase something needs to be tag teamed in CC in your backfield. The PW is always a must for them in my mind since it makes him decent (not good, decent) in CC via his +1 for pistol.

What you'll see as you playtest your list and the list here, sadly the autauch just isn't worth it. If they got rid of that damn "one is always a failure" I would totally consider an autauch or two. The other thing you'll find over time is incorporating jetbikes into your list diversifies your scoring and gives you a fast annoying as hell distractive unit that essentially has a 12" lascannon vs vehicles. I don't own warwalkers or vypers personally, but I can't stomach a vehicle that can be ripped to shreds by simple bolter fire.

meh, 2 Missiles aren't as bad as you make them out to be Dagger. They've got ap4 on those blasts which make them somewhat interesting against guard and other Eldar, if you can hit a Vet squad or aspect warrior squad with those you're in business. And I don't know about you, but I'm kind of clumped up after a bladestorm because 2 inches from that rear hatch isn't much...

They also have pinning and with 6 pinning blasts you might actually pull off enough checks to disable something for a turn.

They are also more effective at shooting av12 skimmers- like other Wave Serpents or Vendettas, where even with outflanking you'll probably be in the side arc

But truth be told whenever I put war walkers on the table its 2x shuri cannons... a walker for 40 points??? yes please! Then I outflank it, shoot at rear armor and assault random things! for 40 points a pop they are super expendable. 70 point missile walkers are a bit more of an investment...

I understand why scatter walkers are the most popular. But I think saying the Eldar Missile Launcher is an awful weapon is a bit too harsh.

akaean wrote:meh, 2 Missiles aren't as bad as you make them out to be Dagger. They've got ap4 on those blasts which make them somewhat interesting against guard and other Eldar, if you can hit a Vet squad or aspect warrior squad with those you're in business. And I don't know about you, but I'm kind of clumped up after a bladestorm because 2 inches from that rear hatch isn't much...

They also have pinning and with 6 pinning blasts you might actually pull off enough checks to disable something for a turn.

They are also more effective at shooting av12 skimmers- like other Wave Serpents or Vendettas, where even with outflanking it doesn't matter if you're shooting side or front.

But truth be told whenever I put war walkers on the table its 2x shuri cannons... a walker for 40 points??? yes please! Then I outflank it, shoot at rear armor and assault random things! for 40 points a pop they are super expendable. 70 point missile walkers are a bit more of an investment...

AP4 blasts, you means for the things that will be in cover, cover, or cover? In competitive play if you are allowing yourself to be clumped up AND out of cover, you need to reanalyze your playstyle. I haven't bladestormed since my first few months of playing, it's not worth it's cost in competitive play.

The pinning blasts are all coming from the same unit, 1 wound are 20 wounds it's still one test.

More effective at shooting those vehicles? because 2 EML serpents, 1 BL serpent, and 2x 3 s8 shot falcons isn't good enough there?

Warwalkers in my mind are best served very cheap, because if they are outflanking they are going to die a horrific death when they outflank. Scatter lasers is better if you are keeping on the field and guided due to range.

I mean yes, outflanking walkers should probably be armed with shuri cannons to keep them cheap and flexible, but I really think you are being a bit harsh on EMLs. Its not like they are as aweful as Bright Lances or Star Cannons...

akaean wrote:I mean yes, outflanking walkers should probably be armed with shuri cannons to keep them cheap and flexible, but I really think you are being a bit harsh on EMLs. Its not like they are as aweful as Bright Lances or Star Cannons...

This is correct being in the harsh mood I am in today I would definately rank them..

A) Shuricannon or Scatters: Pat on the back
B) EML: need to be slapped
C) BL or Starcannon: Go sit in the corner, no.. seriously, go sit in the corner
D) Spiritstones or "mixed weapons for versatility": Please proceed to do Eldar players a favor and melt your models.

man... I am crabby today.

Thanks for your help Dagger and everyone else. This gives me a lot to take in on making my list more competitive. Appreciate the insight greatly!

I like Blue when he's crabby, he talks just as much sense but throws in humor!

syypher, if you want to go mech, go mech. If you want to go double autarch outflank, do it. Don't do both. Load up on scorpions and scatter walkers, small jetbike units for troops, and have some fun.

If you are really keen on the idea of hitting side armor with walkers, then stop casually dropping "man, you know what would be cool? WALKERS. OUTFLANK. Yeah?" and just say "I want a list where the focus is 9 war walkers coming in from outflank on a 2+, any ideas?"

I'm not saying it will be viable. But right now, you have a mech list minus farseers. There is nothing special, nothing different, its cookie cutter. If you don't want the list to be different from cookie cutter, you don't need a thread, so before we go any further, ask yourself "What do I REALLY want this list to achieve? How do I want it to play?" When you know the answer to that, we can help you get the list the way you want it.

TehScat wrote:I like Blue when he's crabby, he talks just as much sense but throws in humor!

syypher, if you want to go mech, go mech. If you want to go double autarch outflank, do it. Don't do both. Load up on scorpions and scatter walkers, small jetbike units for troops, and have some fun.

If you are really keen on the idea of hitting side armor with walkers, then stop casually dropping "man, you know what would be cool? WALKERS. OUTFLANK. Yeah?" and just say "I want a list where the focus is 9 war walkers coming in from outflank on a 2+, any ideas?"

I'm not saying it will be viable. But right now, you have a mech list minus farseers. There is nothing special, nothing different, its cookie cutter. If you don't want the list to be different from cookie cutter, you don't need a thread, so before we go any further, ask yourself "What do I REALLY want this list to achieve? How do I want it to play?" When you know the answer to that, we can help you get the list the way you want it.

I don't how Blue it is when he's nice but I like the way he is when he replied to my thread. No crap just harsh constructive criticism. Thanks Blue

@TehScat: I'm new to Eldar and I am just seeking units and models that would be the best way to play a Mechdar list. The list might be just a CC list with no Farseers but that doesn't mean I don't need a thread for further advice on ways to play Mechdar, tips on Mechdar strategies and units/models that work well with the army. Like I said I'm new to Eldar and don't know how most things will work in a Mech list for us. After this thread though and all the great replies and advice I know generally now how to alter a Mech based Eldar list and not do it horribly. Building up my foundation I guess you can say so that I don't go off putting Spirit Stones and a variety of guns on my War Walker squad like Dagger so nicely suggested was a bad idea.

I've learned a lot from this thread from posting my list up and now have a better understanding on what units work better with which HQ etc.

To answer your question though...

What do I REALLY want this list to achieve? I want it to be a mobile shooting army with no rival. What I've learned from this thread for this goal is to remove underslung cannons. I had already thought of this but everyone and their mom suggested to have that 10 pt upgrade no matter what. Like it was always clear cut. However after playing a Mech BA army previously having more than 1 gun and neutering your mobility is bad. However I went with the crowd and until Dagger so kindly explained the error of my ways I now know how better to make my list more mobile, more shooty and not waste pts.

How do I want it to play? One thing I'm still cross on is this. I love the idea on double Autarchs. I like the idea of the enemy not getting shots 1st and me (most of the time) getting the Alpha Strike. However after a few people here have mentioned is that 17% extra really worth it and that I should drop 1 Autarch for a Farseer/ Eldrad. The thing I'm unsure about (I'm honestly new to Eldar and don't have enough experience to figure this out YET myself) is if I do take a farseer what abilities best serve to make a Mechdar list better? Which Transport to put him in? I'm thinking the DAVU Falcon. Should I give him stones/runes so he can cast 2/hurt enemy psykers? At that point shouldn't i just take Eldrad...

So if I have a question about the list since I have most of the foundation of units/tactics/wargear on WS etc. already answered I guess it would be how would you equip a Farseer and which abilities would you use and why? (Or Eldrad)