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OK, total noob here in Fantasy. I have never played a game in any edition and recently purchased the rule book out of curiosity and have started listening to some podcasts. Some people on these podcasts have flat out stated that they are waiting until 9th edition because 8th is broken and the game is no longer competitive - shocking to me since 8th is relatively brand new so how do they know? I have no basis to understand why they think that.

Does anyone agree with that assesment number one and if so can someone sort of bulletpoint what the major flaws are in 8th that make it so? Or is this a case of whiner internet people who complain that every codex is broken and I'm quitting! It just seems to be a very strong undercurrent in the podcasts I'm listening to even the 40k ones whenever the topic of Fantasy comes up so I'm very curious.

8th edition is way more competitive and fun then 7th edition ever was...

90% of the people who complain about 8th edition got hit by one dwellers or something, lost the game, and ran to the forums crying overpowered.

The general consensus I get NOT ON FORUMS is that 8th edition is one of the best editions warhammer has had in a long while, and I agree with that (been playing since 5th).

The vocal group the bitches and moans is normally a minority!

People get overly stressed about such things. If there's something you don't like about the game, agree with your opponent to play it a bit differently.

e.g. We find magic is a bit overpowered in 8th, so when playing 1000pt games, we sometimes roll a D3 for spells rather than a D6, thereby bypassing the game changing uber spells liker Dwellers Below or Transformation of Kadon. It makes more sense for the Lvl 2 wizards we use too.

I would also like to point out that you may be listening to the wrong podcasts...

Garagehammer is by far a lot more positive- if a little off-topic sometimes and insanely lengthy.

I stepped away from podhammer many episodes ago, along with several other podcasts that chose to take negative stances on everything instead of trying to enjoy this game regardless of what's going on with rules.


Change what you're listening to, don't take it literally and think it represents the majority - because it sure doesn't.

Which podcasts are saying this?

Bad Dice Podcast is probably my favorite WHFB centric podcast and they love it. So much so that their enthusiasm is contagious. There are some imbalanced things in Fantasy, sure, but in a game with so many variables, its going to happen.

In my opinion, if GW toned down magic in a FAQ or something, the dudes crying about magic would switch from complaining about that and whine about how they can't kill large blocks of infantry.

I love 8th edition and I agree with Flash and Shivan.

NELS1031 wrote:Which podcasts are saying this?

Bad Dice Podcast is probably my favorite WHFB centric podcast and they love it. So much so that their enthusiasm is contagious. There are some imbalanced things in Fantasy, sure, but in a game with so many variables, its going to happen.

In my opinion, if GW toned down magic in a FAQ or something, the dudes crying about magic would switch from complaining about that and whine about how they can't kill large blocks of infantry.

I love 8th edition and I agree with Flash and Shivan.

Bolded for fething Emphasis......

Magic is the ONLY way for some (most) armies to deal with 40-50 strong blocks of infantry......

ShivanAngel wrote:8th edition is way more competitive and fun then 7th edition ever was...

I'll second that 8th is more fun than 7th was, starting with just step up and random magic winds for me at the very least. However I think I agree with the noted haters when they say 8th isn't as competitive, with the caveat that I don't think 8th rewards a competitive mindset in the same way (too random?), nor is 8th as fun when played from said mindset. Unfortunately rather than having this translate into more laidback and/or comp-y large events, it seems to have resulted in simply lower attendance (and lots of ship-jumpers to warmahordes, flames, etc).

What do we figure the date for 9th would be? 2015? Even 5 years between editions seems like a bit of a stretch for GeeDub.

- Salvage

People don't like change. Crabby people like it even less. And people who had become expert at one system all of a sudden finding themselves on par with "the masses" again, probably like it least.

It's a G.A.M.E. A silly game at that. If you have fun playing it, play it. If you don't, don't.

Simple really: try it. Find a local store that has some enthusiastic players because you'll feed of their enthusiasm, and someone will be able to give you a 1000pt intro game. If you like it, you like it. Listen to Bad Dice, Heelenhammer, Garagehammer - they're all enthusiastic, and as someone noted above, that's contangious. Avoid the naysayers because to a degree they do affect how you feel about the game. In my experience it's still way fun. I never played competitively though.

The reason competitive players aren't happy is 8th added some major changes including random magic dice and random charges and measuring anything at any time this tends to add some luck to the battle and people don't like things they can't control in a competitive setting

I only just returned to too fantasy but I played 4th and 5th alot (I think I used to average 4-5 games and week, good i wish I was a kid still) And I think its a great system I love the random charges range etc and the new magic rules are obviously an attempt to counter massed hordes and I dont really see what all the whinging is about.

8th is much better then 7th was.


I play I2 ogres and i absolutly hate the uber spells, but in 7th, when there were no uber spells, i didn't have a chance of winning at all.

at least i have a chance.


8th also sped up the game. Guess ranges were annoying and could take awhile. especially if you were attempting to charge and found out you were 1" short


all armies got alot closer together in terms of power level. a middle tier army with a good general can beat a top tier army with a meh general.

super magic armies got nerfed in the numbers of PD they can have. Teclis mage spam armies could be rocking upwards of 25 PD last edition. now they are limited to a 2d6 roll(plus any items)

*maximum of 12*

Yeah some armies were literally point click win....

Daemon tzeentch lists were almost impossible to beat due to them rocking something like 20+ PD.

I agree! I started in 5th and it was ok. Our group would get overburdened by all the rules, etc. When 6th/7th came out, well, it just caused arguments and rules lawyering.

8th? We're having FUN. Laughing, buying new armies.

And magic is magic. I'm fine with it wiping out units. I mean, usually, you have 6 turns to play. Things SHOULD be exciting and epic. I'm loving it!!

8th edition is a great casual beer and pretzels game to play with your friends as it plays faster now and is simpler. Step up and move to large blocks of infantry is the way it should be as armies were masses of infantry. You can have a gentleman's agreement not to use uber spells or people house rule it that uber spells give look out sirs for characters so its not nearly as damaging and if you do eat it to the big one you can just ask your friend for a rematch.

As a competitive game, 8th is actually worse as it made things more random like charge distances, winds of magic and these random uber spells. Competitive players don't like more randomness.

on another note though, it made armies a lot more balanced across the board...

Yeah stepping up was one of the rules I really liked...

When trying to explain 7th edition to my brother he was like...

Him:so you attack first, and can kill more guys then are in the front rank..

Me: Yeah

Him: but my guys in the second rank wont just walk up and hit you back?

Me: Nope

Him: this game is stupid.

To the OP..

You have the advantage of being totally new to WHFB, and should be unbiased unlike some veterans who simply could not adjust to the changes in 8th ed (I'm a veteran, been playing since 1998, but I love 8th ed)

Try, and you will find out it's not broken at all. The 7th ed environment was much more broken, and tourneys had to rely on really HEAVY comp restrictions to make it competitive.

Stravo wrote:Some people on these podcasts have flat out stated that they are waiting until 9th edition because 8th edition Daemons are NOT broken anymore.

I fixed this just a bit for ya.

I like Fantasy because it's different. And I'm starting to see a lot of the rules and units we got to use in Warmaster (though not many people played overall) start to make their appearance now.

8th has presented challenges for me as a Bret player, but it's also helped me learn a different play style - which (besides make GW more cash) is something a good game should do.

In 7th ed you had a lot more direct control over your troops, particularly with charge ranges, and there were other little skills like guessing the ranges for artillery. There were also less game changing mega-events, as now getting off a powerful spell can really swing a game, and this means that a guy who's been outplayed so far in the game could swing things in his favour thanks to rolling the dice on a spell.

That meant a skilled player had a greater edge over an average player in 7th than you see in 8th.

This was compounded by the extreme imbalance between armies in 7th ed, where certain builds were vastly more powerful than the norm. This meant that if you read about the right lists on line and spent the money, you could be very confident of victory against anyone but a similarly overpowered list. Coupled with the skill difference above, it meant skilled players who invested in the right lists could be almost almost guaranteed a win against your average player.

This was a gaming environment a number of people really enjoyed. When the new edition levelled out the power levels between the best and worst armies, and became more chaotic across the board, those people didn't like it and loudly announced they were leaving.

I'm normally sad to see anyone leave a game, but to be honest in this case... not so much.

ShivanAngel wrote:on another note though, it made armies a lot more balanced across the board...

Oh, yeah.

I got all the books for 40K sitting up there and they're a fun read, but to me that entire game was about list-building. Two guys could meet at a shop, exchange pieces of paper with their lists, and know with a pretty decent certitude who would win. Shake hands, say gg, and go to the next match.

In 7th you could do that with a number of armies. And before you object, think about, say, old Daemons vs. old Ogres. If you had to bet your life on the outcome of that fight, not even looking at units, who you gonna choose in 7th edition?

And as a weird corrollary, I think they made the game friendlier in that regards. Even though there was the first rule or greatest rule or whatever, people still like to win. Sometimes a bit much. There's all kinds of way to "guess" the range on artillery. And building lists themselves that you know had a mass advantage. It feels more sporting, because everyone is subject to the same randomness.

It's not the US Men's Olympic Basketball team against Thailand's team.

ShivanAngel wrote:8th edition is way more competitive and fun then 7th edition ever was...

90% of the people who complain about 8th edition got hit by one dwellers or something, lost the game, and ran to the forums crying overpowered.

The general consensus I get NOT ON FORUMS is that 8th edition is one of the best editions warhammer has had in a long while, and I agree with that (been playing since 5th).

The vocal group the bitches and moans is normally a minority!

Well said. 8th has made me far more interested in fantasy. Its a very level playing field.

I think that in my area it was more of a "what I have to buy 3 boxes of spearmen before I can play a 2200 point game?"

that made most folks drop out (in my area at least) as they felt that they were being forced to spend money on an army they thought complete. Perhaps if GW "rebooted" all the army books at the initial 8th release? Folks are used to spending a bit of money when a new army book is released.

I on the other hand ran lots of infantry in my WOC and HE armies so I only needed a few spears to get me back in the game.

I sure would like to play more, however not many people left in my area.

8th is different from 7th but as the OP asked for things that work/don't work here is my list

Likes
- step up - this makes sense and encourages infantry
- random magic phase - makes magic more unpredicable
- more infantry - I like my little painted dudes, more on the table is good (except when I have to buy more at ridiculous prices )
- change in the battlefield - more terrain that actually does stuff!


Dislikes
- random charge distance - utterly ridiculous and IMO unnecessary Yes judging distances requires some skill that is the point, like a general determining if his troops are in proper position to assault the enemy, misjudge and you are in trouble, now roll 2 bad dice and you are in trouble - where is the skill in that?
- TLOS - a dislike in specific circumstances, oh I can see you through that combat so I can shoot you now, who cares that some of my friends might get hit!
- Steadfast - I have more ranks than you so I ignore that you just slaughtered 20 of my friends????
- Uber Spells - unnecessary, If they dropped the #6 spell from all lores then IMO magic would function more effectively
- Pre measuring and no guessing - again develop some skill!, practice! It makes sense that when you fire that cannon you don't know exactly how far away the enemy is so you have to guess!
- cavalry being made nigh useless There should be justifiable terror at being charged by hundreds of lbs of horseflesh, steel and bad attitude
- continued loss of variety within army books (ie magic items) - loss of uniqueness is saddening



I was a long time 6th and 7th ed player, while I have enjoyed some elements of 8th it is to me less of a strategy game now and more a game of luck Too much randomness and luck, not enough strategy and skill
Overall I have not enjoyed 8th as much as I had hoped, I was hoping for a redressing of the issues of 7th and got a complete (and IMO unnecessary and poorly thought out) rework of the game I love

still stuggling

Papasmurf

sebster wrote:In 7th ed you had a lot more direct control over your troops, particularly with charge ranges, and there were other little skills like guessing the ranges for artillery. There were also less game changing mega-events, as now getting off a powerful spell can really swing a game, and this means that a guy who's been outplayed so far in the game could swing things in his favour thanks to rolling the dice on a spell.

That meant a skilled player had a greater edge over an average player in 7th than you see in 8th.

This was compounded by the extreme imbalance between armies in 7th ed, where certain builds were vastly more powerful than the norm. This meant that if you read about the right lists on line and spent the money, you could be very confident of victory against anyone but a similarly overpowered list. Coupled with the skill difference above, it meant skilled players who invested in the right lists could be almost almost guaranteed a win against your average player.

This was a gaming environment a number of people really enjoyed. When the new edition levelled out the power levels between the best and worst armies, and became more chaotic across the board, those people didn't like it and loudly announced they were leaving.

I'm normally sad to see anyone leave a game, but to be honest in this case... not so much.

more direct control???


sure, you knew how far you could charge, but you couldn't premeasure and its pretty easy to think you have range and then be an inch out of it.

I much prefer the random charges.


I do think the guess range for artillery could have been kept. you guess how many inches to fire, then you bounce as normal, but its not game changing.

Why do you prefer random charges? I was totally okay with charging and being a 1/4 inch out cause I overestimated but being 7" away and rolling snake eyes so I can't charge is ridiculous!

cheers

Papasmurf

dear lord...

GUESSING RANGES IS NOT SKILL! its carpentry...

I could drop a stonethrower or cannoball snipe someone 95% of the time if I wanted to, and I never thought it was skillful.

There were so many ways to abuse guess ranges it was absurd.... You could measure during the movement phase and the magic phase before you even got to shooting, and if you werent stupid could use that to your advantage. Not to mention I knew how long my movement trays were, Also payed attention to how far you move during your turn.

Set charge distances was STUPID, it severely hindered some armies ( see dwarfs) so that they NEVER got the charge off, and in 7th edition getting the charge off was HUGE!

I agree steadfast has a few issues, but I would rather have the current steadfast then the Oh look a bloodthirster charged 50 guys, and broke them in one round of combat... That was sure fun.

And carpentry isn't a skill?

I'm sorry I don't see how random charges aren't just as STUPID. I have maneuvered my forces in such a way that I should gain maximum benefit from this charge and then despite my SKILL at managing the battlefield I am punished because I rolled poorly?? Where is the skill in that?

Perhaps my fault lies in believing that STRATEGIC thinking and moving should be rewarded and not left to RANDOM chance

cheers

Papasmurf

on a battlefield, a block of men is a tough thing to get moving.


the randomness represents the unit's cohesion at that point in time. maybe they got their spears tangled up or something?


a block of men will indeed have a randomness in its speed to get to grips with the enemy.

Gopher holes are a bitch when your about to run headlong into someone.

New Terrain piece


Gopher dens.

these count as dangerous terrain to any unit that charges or flees through it. Cavelry and Chariots fail the test on 1s and 2s rather then just 1s.

Monsterous Infantry and Calverly as well as models with the fly rule ignore this terrain as they either avoid the holes or their feet are too big.