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Had this come up in a game recently and we weren't sure how to resolve it, basically the Casket's bound spell leapt onto an Elf unit that had the immune to magic banner, obviously they would take no damage from the attack, but what we weren't certain on is whether the shot would end completely or if it would have a chance to bounce onto the next unit?

Since there was no leadership test and the spell doesn't resolve against the unit we guessed that it wouldn't bounce further, but I thought I'd check here see what the opinions were, so what do you all think?

I would personally allow you to "hop" the spell if you rolled the 5+ roll to do so. Thats because the banner says, can't be effected not that the unit can't be targeted.

3+

The unit cannot be affected, but is a legal target. So the unit cannot take damage, but you can try to jump it to another unit.

It's immune to magic, so it's not affected.

"Once the Leadership test has been resolved..."

It hasn't been, because it's not required to. It stops. The D6 comes after the Leadership roll, which is never taken.

DukeRustfield wrote:It's immune to magic, so it's not affected.

"Once the Leadership test has been resolved..."

It hasn't been, because it's not required to. It stops. The D6 comes after the Leadership roll, which is never taken.

I agree with this as well. The elf is a good thing to block the spell.

Hmm, so that's two votes for and two against, Just have to discuss this with opponents as it comes up and hope that GW put it in the FAQ when that arrives.

In favor of the Space Marines! Oh wait, this is Fantasy.

Joking aside, Duke's logic makes sense.

DukeRustfield wrote:It's immune to magic, so it's not affected.

"Once the Leadership test has been resolved..."

It hasn't been, because it's not required to. It stops. The D6 comes after the Leadership roll, which is never taken.

I'm putting my vote here.

Well, it's a solid argument. But Games Workshop has never explicitly said what "resolved" means, so you could say:

"the unit with the Banner of the World Dragon is targeted. The effect is resolved as follows- the unit is immune, so no roll is made."

I think the important thing to remember here is that the unit with the BotWD is immune despite what happens to the spell after.

well are there any other rules that are kinda like this that we can use for a basis for this one?

Something that is related to the resolve of the spell?

Warpsolution wrote:Well, it's a solid argument. But Games Workshop has never explicitly said what "resolved" means

Well they say "Once the Leadership test is resolved." There is no test. They explain above what the LD test is (3D6, add results). That isn't done. That specific LD test never happens.

I think it would be different if a unit always passed leadership tests. Because the test would happen, they would just automatically succeed, but it would still have a chance to move on. But the trigger is whether or not they had to take that LD test IMHO.

Then in that case as duke stated before it falls on the stack. If something doesn't happen to allow the next in line to continue then it can't goto the next in line.

Yeah, I don't really have anything to back it up, but I would also say it stops.

DukeRustfield wrote:It's immune to magic, so it's not affected.

"Once the Leadership test has been resolved..."

It hasn't been, because it's not required to. It stops. The D6 comes after the Leadership roll, which is never taken.

Like many others in this thread have already said - this seems to be the correct interpretation. They don't take the LD, therefore it is never resolved. Funny thing is, I played a TK in a tournament on Saturday and he never once got off a spell from that infernal thing.

I had read it as Warpsolution posited.

Good to know the other side of this.

The test never happens.

...does that mean it is now resolved? It could. Strictly according to the definition of "resolved", that is, the point at which a process ends and its effects are seen, it is.

So I still think you could argue: they become a target. Resolution- they're immune, so the test doesn't happen. See if it bounces.

The situation:

Casket Player- "that unit must make a Leadership test on 3d6."
Other Player- "that unit is immune."
Situation resolved.

See what I mean?

Warpsolution wrote:The test never happens.

...does that mean it is now resolved? It could. Strictly according to the definition of "resolved", that is, the point at which a process ends and its effects are seen, it is.

So I still think you could argue: they become a target. Resolution- they're immune, so the test doesn't happen. See if it bounces.

The situation:

Casket Player- "that unit must make a Leadership test on 3d6."
Other Player- "that unit is immune."
Situation resolved.

See what I mean?

But that's just it though. It cannot be resolved as it never happened. I don't have the TK book, so I don't know the exact wording of it, but if it says that the jump roll happens after the leadership test then the jump can't happen because the LD roll didn't happen. I agree that the whole of the situation is resolved, but the fact is that the LD roll cannot be resolved.

Warpsolution wrote:The test never happens.

...does that mean it is now resolved? It could.

That's a can of worms. A test that didn't succeed or fail or even execute you're considering having been taken in some way. That could potentially trigger other abilities based on non-events. Non-panic tests or non-characterstic tests or non-spell cast responses. I don't think there's a lot of such things, but I'd say this is pretty clearly a do not pass go, do not collect $200 (or whatever currency you normally collect).

"After the Leadership test is resolved..." --that's the quote, right? So, once again, the question is, what does "resolved" mean?
Literally, if the Leadership test can't be resolved, the game is forever suspended, "take this test", "nuh-uh". And so on.

Still not convinced one way or the other--you'll need to talk grammar to sway me--but I will say this: the Casket's ability to hop-scotch over the Banner would pretty minor, all things considered.
So until some semantic-oriented argument or the FaQ proves otherwise, I guess I'd let 'em have it.

TK Player- It bounces to your PG unit...

HE Player - BoTWD.. *giggle* I are immune...

TK - Well damn, you don't make a LD test do you?

HE - No.

TK - Well, since no LD test happens, it is ever considered resolved?

HE - No.

TK - So can it bounce?

HE - No.

They use the word resolve pretty liberally. Read the beginning of the Magic phase and Close combat phase. Both have instances of not rolling = resolve or must-have rolling = resolve.

But for devil's advocate. What happens if a Dragon Ogre Shaggoth is hit by Chain Lightning spell?

DukeRustfield wrote:But for devil's advocate. What happens if a Dragon Ogre Shaggoth is hit by Chain Lightning spell?

He is affected by gaining frenzy, then it moves on.

DukeRustfield wrote:It's immune to magic, so it's not affected.

"Once the Leadership test has been resolved..."

It hasn't been, because it's not required to. It stops. The D6 comes after the Leadership roll, which is never taken.

Isn't this just a little bit too rules-lawyery?

The spell was never really meant to hinge on a leadership check taking place. I would argue that if the banner dispells other spells that come into contact with it (like vortex spells) then it should shut down the COS, however, if it just ignores spells like vortex when it passes over them, then it should simply ignore the effects of the COS, but allow it to carry on. Hinging it on whether or not the unit made an actual leadership roll seems rather munchkiny to me.

Something being resolved does not mean it occured. In English, anyway--and there is no other way to read the word since there is not a game definition.

From what I can tell.

Well, Itybih2ku, you're speaking to a massive audience through You Make Da' Call, so any attempt to make a decision based on what seems to be the intended path is doomed. These threads are for rules-lawyers only.

We don't care about the spirit of the game or anything like it. At least, not as a tool for divining the truth.

So, as it stands, the bounce-effect relies on the resolution of the Leadership test. There are two ways to look at it:

1. if the test is not taken, it cannot be resolved.
2. the test is resolved when it is not taken.

Both, elvennoob, are legit. Until GW defines "resolve" in any definitive terms.
You're argument crumbles between the 5th and 6th lines. If it's not rolled, is it ever resolved? The answer is: maybe.

So, like I said; I'd give it to the TK, since the Banner is already so damned good, and this particular aspect of the Casket is very minor indeed.

Warpsolution wrote:We don't care about the spirit of the game or anything like it. At least, not as a tool for divining the truth.

Oh, I think a lot of people care. I take issue with a lot of proposed rules because they seem to be not in the spirit. However, I don't think this situation is game-breaking either way. If it continues it continues, if it stops, it stops. The universe won't end if you diced-off which interpretation to use.

DukeRustfield wrote:The universe won't end if you diced-off which interpretation to use.

This right here. Warpsolution, if you and I were playing, this is how I would want to *resolve* this issue... cwutididthar...

Personally, I don't think it should bounce, and I am not alone. However there are plenty in the other camp. If it's in a tournament setting let the judge decide. If you are in a friendly game, the Six-Sided-God decide.

DukeRustfield wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:We don't care about the spirit of the game or anything like it. At least, not as a tool for divining the truth.

Oh, I think a lot of people care. I take issue with a lot of proposed rules because they seem to be not in the spirit. However, I don't think this situation is game-breaking either way. If it continues it continues, if it stops, it stops. The universe won't end if you diced-off which interpretation to use.

Everyone cares, but emotions have no place in discussions of RAW.
At least that's what i got from Warpsolution's post.

The HE unit: Takes a leadership on 3d6. THEY TAKE THE TEST. If they fail they take no wounds. Casket stops. If they pass they pass. They are only immune to the effects.