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so the Daemons for the chaos army (Greater, and Lesser Daemons) do not have the "Daemon" special rule. Do grey knights still get bonuses for fighting them?

Yes, since they are daemons.

SJ

That's what I was saying,. my friend just really hates fighting grey knights, thank you

GySgtHernandez wrote:That's what I was saying,. my friend just really hates fighting grey knights, thank you

And I don't blame him. The new Grey Knights versus Daemons, allows a mediocre Grey Knights player to make a good game with a skilled Daemon player.
-Not a fan.

Eldar Avatars are also affected by GK rules.

Strictly, following the rules, you only get a bonus against C: Daemons and Avatar. Nothing else has the defined Daemon rule

GySgtHernandez wrote:Do grey knights still get bonuses for fighting them?

No. They do not have the Daemon special rule like nos said.

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This post also broke Tenets 1a and 5 of You Make Da Call, found here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page

Do I think they should be counted as Daemons? Yes, absolutely. It's clear that they are, in fact, Daemons.

Do they have the Daemons rule? No. Therefore, technically, they are not affected by the Grey Knights' rules.

Stupid but 100% factually correct. That's GW in a nutshell.

Miraclefish wrote:It's clear that they are, in fact, Daemons.

Thank you.

RaW they are not Daemons.

GaP they are Daemons.

Where people generally get their knickers in a twist is with regards to Daemon Princes, Possessed, Defilers, etc.
All of these have some daemonic features but its a matter of opinion if they are daemons or not.

IdentifyZero wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:It's clear that they are, in fact, Daemons.

Thank you.

You forgot to quote the last part where he says technically..

I play C: Daemons, C: CSM, and C: Grey Knights. Good job for giving myself an advantage eh? Those 18 models in a 2k point game must be really scary.
Heavy Flamers must be heavy then I guess.

Lolcanoe wrote:

IdentifyZero wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:It's clear that they are, in fact, Daemons.

Thank you.

You forgot to quote the last part where he says technically..

I play C: Daemons, C: CSM, and C: Grey Knights. Good job for giving myself an advantage eh? Those 18 models in a 2k point game must be really scary.
Heavy Flamers must be heavy then I guess.

He states it on a different line, different thought. That's the problem with not taking a stance one way or the other and wish-washing.

Not sure what you're getting at with your last comment Lolcanoe. Mind explaining it in a sensible way?

I'll explain.

C: Chaos Daemons have the Daemon special rule, therefore, they are daemons which Grey Knights get preferred enemy against.

C: CSM daemons are only daemons by name. Nowhere in that codex is the special rule for Daemon.

Just because something has a name, doesn't mean that it is what it's called. How many people would say the Avatar was a daemon if it didn't specifically say so?

Chaos Daemon : Daemon as Heave Flamer : Heavy Weapon

the Preferred Enemy the GKs have simply says they have Preferred Enemy: Daemons.




the Rule Book simply states that models with this rule reroll all failed hits in CC against said enemies with a WS.



as we arn't told how to define a "Daemon" we should do it like this.

anything that has the word Deamon in its name or special rules is considered to be a deamon.


the GK codex doesn't say "Things with the Daemon special rule", or "all things in Codex: Daemons", or "all things with the word Daemon in their name"

we simply have to do a blanket covering and have it apply to anything with the Daemon special rule and all things with Deamon in their name.


this would mean we would have to include,

the Avatar,

everything with the Daemon special rule(basically, Codex: Daemons),

CSM Daemon princes and Summoned Daemons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Strictly, following the rules, you only get a bonus against C: Daemons and Avatar. Nothing else has the defined Daemon rule

but we are never told that the GK's Preferred Enemy: Daemons only applies to things with the Daemon special rule.

Grey Templar wrote:the Preferred Enemy the GKs have simply says they have Preferred Enemy: Daemons.




the Rule Book simply states that models with this rule reroll all failed hits in CC against said enemies with a WS.



as we arn't told how to define a "Daemon" we should do it like this.

anything that has the word Deamon in its name or special rules is considered to be a deamon.


the GK codex doesn't say "Things with the Daemon special rule", or "all things in Codex: Daemons", or "all things with the word Daemon in their name"

we simply have to do a blanket covering and have it apply to anything with the Daemon special rule and all things with Deamon in their name.


this would mean we would have to include,

the Avatar,

everything with the Daemon special rule(basically, Codex: Daemons),

CSM Daemon princes and Summoned Daemons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Strictly, following the rules, you only get a bonus against C: Daemons and Avatar. Nothing else has the defined Daemon rule

but we are never told that the GK's Preferred Enemy: Daemons only applies to things with the Daemon special rule.

Excellent point. It does just say Preferred Enemy: Daemons.

When you think about it, in the past, there are models with Preferred Enemy:Race (4th Edition Tyranid Hunters for example) and if we used the above logic, where they have to have a special rule denoting them as tyranids, nothing is affected.

It seems GK worded the Daemon thing the way they did so it applies to anything Daemonic really. Whether it be Daemons from Chaos Daemons Codex or Daemons from Chaos Space Marines codex. There is no mention of type or special rule Daemon, just that it has the preferred enemy: Daemons.

Exactly


it really isn't a huge deal. CSM deamons are pretty awful aside from being able to assault after deepstrike.

its more about rerolling against their Daemon Princes.

Grey Templar wrote:
it really isn't a huge deal. CSM deamons are pretty awful aside from being able to assault after deepstrike.

Which makes them awesome...?

awsomely awful, like Gretchin are awsome.


they are dirt cheap and take no slots.

cannon fodder.

Gretchin are awesome for what they do though

yup

The best example of how this works is a unit with PE (Orks) vs a unit of Nobs; does PE work? Yes, because Nobs are Orks, even if they lack a special rule saying they are orks.

Same logic gets applied to PE (Daemons) or PE (Tyranid) or PE (<incert name&gt.

In the case of the Eldar Avatar, a special mention was made to allow us to know that it does count as a Daemon, on the off chance that it would matter.

SJ

Just my 2p, but if my Daemon Prince doesn't get the Daemon special rule (reroll to hit vs things with WS), then he isn't a Daemon. My point of view is he's more Marine than Daemon, thus counts as a Chaos Space Marine, not a Daemon.

As for the summoned daemons... yeah, I've got nothing.

the Daemon prince still has the word Daemon in its name.



and how is he different from the Daemon Princes in Codex: Daemons?

statwise, no difference as far as i know.

Daemon Hunters have the word 'Daemon' in their name, too
But agree, why should a daemon prince not be a daemon when fighting with CSM, when it is one when fighting with other daemons?

Statwise, very different

C: Daemon is -1S and no armour save, for a start.
And GT - Assault Cannons have Assault in their name. Guess I can assault after firing them! Heavy flamers are "heavy" though, so no assaulting after firing them....

See how silly the "it has it in its name" argument is?

and the Deamonhunter codex doesn't exist anymore

and there never was a UNIT with the word Deamon in its name in the Deamonhunter codex.

and at the time, the DH codex actually defined what was a Deamon and what wasn't(everything from Codex: Deamons, Deamon Princes, Chaos models with more then 50 points of Deamonic Gifts, Summoned Deamons, Posessed, Vehicles with Deamonic Posession, and the Avatar)

Doesn't make you definition any less silly. That's like saying a restaurant is tau.

Jidmah wrote:Daemon Hunters have the word 'Daemon' in their name, too
But agree, why should a daemon prince not be a daemon when fighting with CSM, when it is one when fighting with other daemons?

Are we trying to be difficult here? You're referencing the BOOK/CODEX name of the army, because they hunt Daemons.

Jidmah wrote:Doesn't make you definition any less silly. That's like saying a restaurant is tau.

I think you are the one with the silly definition, trying to de-rail topic with nonsense and spouting off lines like the above.

Please, try to contribute.

Nobody in this topic, has an IQ below 70 I imagine and none of you are illiterate and none of you, have never heard of Warhammer 40,000.

*For a fact, we know that Daemons, of all shapes and sizes = Daemons.

*We also know, that things with the word Daemon in their name, are associated with Daemons.

*We know Daemons are associated with the Warp (Chaos).

Grey Knights have Preferred Enemy: Daemons, which really is any unit that is by lore or rules, considered a Daemon.

By your Tau/Restraunt logic, Daemons are mon. Hey Mon! We got Preferred Enemy: Mon!

No,

Restaurant is a single word.

Deamon is a single word.


I am no pulling a word out of another word, the word Deamon is one of the 2 words that make up the unit name, Deamon Prince.

that is a Reducto ad Absurdium argument you have there and as such is invalid.



we arn't told how to define what a deamon is, and as such we must count everything that is a deamon in any way, shape, or form. this includes things with the Deamon rule, things in Codex: Deamons, Deamon Princes(name), summoned Deamons(again, name) and the Avatar(its rules explicitly say its a deamon)