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May be it's just me missing the part of reading, but I looked through codex and FAQ alike, and cannot find the definition of "Daemon" unit. I tried the search engine on Dakka, but apparently the engine is down right now.

So I'll just ask here: Do Daemon Prince and Chaos Spawn count as daemon? (Being a fluff nerd I think they do, but this is desktop game rule, no "I think") What about vehicles that have Daemonic Possession upgrade? Defilers? Soul Grinders?

Thanks!

I would say yes. It was in an earlier thread that somebody mentioned that a unit has Preferred Enemy:Orks but there is no 'orks' rule. So, anything that is from the ork codex is 'ork'. I see no reason why it wouldn't apply to daemons as well.

-cgmckenzie

daemon units, have the "daemon" special rule. simple as that.\

cgmckenzie wrote:I would say yes. It was in an earlier thread that somebody mentioned that a unit has Preferred Enemy:Orks but there is no 'orks' rule. So, anything that is from the ork codex is 'ork'. I see no reason why it wouldn't apply to daemons as well.

-cgmckenzie

But my problem is that units like Daemon Prince and Chaos Spawn, Defiler are in CSM codex.... Not Chaos Daemon codex. That's where it gets confused.

So do you mean Preferred Enemy (Daemon) only applies to units in Chaos Daemon codex?

Then how does preferred enemyrks work? There is no orks special rule.

-cgmckenzie

And I would say it would only apply to the daemon codex. But a demon prince is very clearly a demon, so I am not sure.

SweetLou wrote:daemon units, have the "daemon" special rule. simple as that.\

Same question above... So it only covers Chaos Daemon codex? Or just any units that have "daemon" in its name? Then what about Chaos spawn and Daemonic Possession?

This is something spoken of at my LGS as well. There are those that say it would only apply to those things that have the Daemon Special Rule but as was stated, Orks aren't a special rule. I believe the reason they just put (Daemon) in there was because they figured everyone would play it as it lies, but as that is not the case in most competitive neighborhoods, there will probably be an FAQ that says.. Yes, ALL Daemons are their preferred enemy, this includes Daemon Princes from the Chaos Space Marine Book, etc. But we'll have to wait and see.

cgmckenzie wrote:And I would say it would only apply to the daemon codex. But a demon prince is very clearly a demon, so I am not sure.

That's the part I get confused...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Matt1785 wrote:This is something spoken of at my LGS as well. There are those that say it would only apply to those things that have the Daemon Special Rule but as was stated, Orks aren't a special rule. I believe the reason they just put (Daemon) in there was because they figured everyone would play it as it lies, but as that is not the case in most competitive neighborhoods, there will probably be an FAQ that says.. Yes, ALL Daemons are their preferred enemy, this includes Daemon Princes from the Chaos Space Marine Book, etc. But we'll have to wait and see.

So that means only a GW GK FAQ could make it clear... Fair enough.

Presently, the most commonly accepted thought, around here at the very least, is that only units with 'Daemon' in their profile are daemons.

So its everything from Codex: Chaos Daemons and the Avatar of Khaine.

Maybe it will be FAQ'd otherwise to include various units from C:CSM but I kinda don't think so.

-Nara

There was a thread for this question that got locked just recently (I think it's on page 2 now).

Suffice to say, some people argue it's based on codex (not supported in the rules), some people argue that it requires the daemon rule (not supported in the rules), some people check if the unit's rules refer to it as the type of unit (see also, Orks and the Mob Rule and Waaagh Rules), and some people go by fluff.

Most likely this is something you should discuss with your opponent before you start the game if he/she is using a unit that might be a daemon that isn't in Codex: Daemons. That is, until the FAQ comes out.

ryanstartalker wrote:

SweetLou wrote:daemon units, have the "daemon" special rule. simple as that.\

Same question above... So it only covers Chaos Daemon codex? Or just any units that have "daemon" in its name? Then what about Chaos spawn and Daemonic Possession?

Counter point to that, if it were necrons there are no units that have "necron(s)" in the name, so going off of a unit name is incorrect.

I think it's pretty self explanatory that it is based off of the codex and nothing else.

Kevin949 wrote:

ryanstartalker wrote:

SweetLou wrote:daemon units, have the "daemon" special rule. simple as that.\

Same question above... So it only covers Chaos Daemon codex? Or just any units that have "daemon" in its name? Then what about Chaos spawn and Daemonic Possession?

Counter point to that, if it were necrons there are no units that have "necron(s)" in the name, so going off of a unit name is incorrect.

I think it's pretty self explanatory that it is based off of the codex and nothing else.

Except the Preferred Enemy rule says nothing about codex in it.

Kevin949 wrote:

ryanstartalker wrote:

SweetLou wrote:daemon units, have the "daemon" special rule. simple as that.\

Same question above... So it only covers Chaos Daemon codex? Or just any units that have "daemon" in its name? Then what about Chaos spawn and Daemonic Possession?

Counter point to that, if it were necrons there are no units that have "necron(s)" in the name, so going off of a unit name is incorrect.

I think it's pretty self explanatory that it is based off of the codex and nothing else.

Same point from Nobody.

And according to your reasoning, the summoned greater and lesser daemons in CSM codex would NOT count towards "daemon", as that they don't have "daemon" in their unit type and not in Chaos Daemon codex also. How about that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Naravus wrote:Presently, the most commonly accepted thought, around here at the very least, is that only units with 'Daemon' in their profile are daemons.

So its everything from Codex: Chaos Daemons and the Avatar of Khaine.

Maybe it will be FAQ'd otherwise to include various units from C:CSM but I kinda don't think so.

-Nara

Even if you don't count in Daemon Prince... What about the summoned greater and lesser daemon in C:CSM?

regarding the CSM codex I would say anything that's also a daemon in the chaos daemons codex counts. Possessed units are not daemons they are just possessed by them i would say the physical body would have to be fully daemon to count.

ryanstartalker wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

ryanstartalker wrote:

SweetLou wrote:daemon units, have the "daemon" special rule. simple as that.\

Same question above... So it only covers Chaos Daemon codex? Or just any units that have "daemon" in its name? Then what about Chaos spawn and Daemonic Possession?

Counter point to that, if it were necrons there are no units that have "necron(s)" in the name, so going off of a unit name is incorrect.

I think it's pretty self explanatory that it is based off of the codex and nothing else.

Same point from Nobody.

And according to your reasoning, the summoned greater and lesser daemons in CSM codex would NOT count towards "daemon", as that they don't have "daemon" in their unit type and not in Chaos Daemon codex also. How about that?

Theeeen, you don't get preferred enemy against them. *Shrug* I don't see what is not to understand about that. LoL

Kevin949 wrote:

ryanstartalker wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

ryanstartalker wrote:

SweetLou wrote:daemon units, have the "daemon" special rule. simple as that.\

Same question above... So it only covers Chaos Daemon codex? Or just any units that have "daemon" in its name? Then what about Chaos spawn and Daemonic Possession?

Counter point to that, if it were necrons there are no units that have "necron(s)" in the name, so going off of a unit name is incorrect.

I think it's pretty self explanatory that it is based off of the codex and nothing else.

Same point from Nobody.

And according to your reasoning, the summoned greater and lesser daemons in CSM codex would NOT count towards "daemon", as that they don't have "daemon" in their unit type and not in Chaos Daemon codex also. How about that?

Theeeen, you don't get preferred enemy against them. *Shrug* I don't see what is not to understand about that. LoL

The problem is that both Lesser and Greater daemons have rules that refer to them being daemons (pg 61 of the CSM codex, under the Daemon Summoning rules).

Strict RAW, Preferred Enemy (Daemons) can only refer to units in Codex: Chaos Daemons, just like Preferred Enemy (Orks) only refers to units in the Ork Codex.

Preferred Enemy only has a precedent affecting units from specific codices, or affecting pre-defined unit types (e.g. Monstrous Creatures or Jump Infantry).

If you feel that more units should be included under the Daemon definition, discuss it with your opponent.

Xca|iber wrote:Strict RAW, Preferred Enemy (Daemons) can only refer to units in Codex: Chaos Daemons, just like Preferred Enemy (Orks) only refers to units in the Ork Codex.

Preferred Enemy only has a precedent affecting units from specific codices, or affecting pre-defined unit types (e.g. Monstrous Creatures or Jump Infantry).

If you feel that more units should be included under the Daemon definition, discuss it with your opponent.

Where are you getting this being RAW? The Preferred Enemy rule in the BRB does not state anything about the codex, nor does the Preferred Enemy: Daemons entry in the GK codex.

Yes, there absolutely is no RAW in this case. Any distinction people are making about what exactly constitutes a 'Daemon' is a distinction based on personal opinion.

The rule does not say preferred enemy against units from the Daemon codex, so we can't know for sure if that is the distinction.

The rule does not say preferred enemy against those units with the 'Daemon' special rule, so we can't know for sure if that is the distinction.

Or it could be any unit with the 'Daemon' special rule AND any unit called a Daemon.

Nobody knows for sure.

To pour oil into the fire, the ork codex clearly states that gretchin are not orks, so all those Prefered Enemy: Orks models would not get their rerolls when fighting Gretchin, Kanz or Grot tanks.

So with this same arguement, if an army has Preferred Enemy (Space Marines) it would not work on Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Gey Knights, Black Templars, or Space Wolves(Etc). It would only wotk against entries listed in the Codex Space Marines only. Is this correct?


(example comes from Minators IA)

With all the ambiguity, I would be inclined to say that anything that is obviously a daemon(the daemon codex;summoned daemons for CSM) gets preferential killing.

It's a bit fluffy, yeah, but as good as anything else we got.

-cgmckenzie

yakface wrote:
Yes, there absolutely is no RAW in this case. Any distinction people are making about what exactly constitutes a 'Daemon' is a distinction based on personal opinion.

The rule does not say preferred enemy against units from the Daemon codex, so we can't know for sure if that is the distinction.

The rule does not say preferred enemy against those units with the 'Daemon' special rule, so we can't know for sure if that is the distinction.

Or it could be any unit with the 'Daemon' special rule AND any unit called a Daemon.

Nobody knows for sure.

That made my day. Maybe I'll just be patient to wait for the FAQ release.

Pied_Piper11 wrote:So with this same arguement, if an army has Preferred Enemy (Space Marines) it would not work on Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Gey Knights, Black Templars, or Space Wolves(Etc). It would only wotk against entries listed in the Codex Space Marines only. Is this correct?


(example comes from Minators IA)

Good point to counter Kevin's argument. Kevin, yours are not reasoning at all.

cgmckenzie wrote:With all the ambiguity, I would be inclined to say that anything that is obviously a daemon(the daemon codex;summoned daemons for CSM) gets preferential killing.

It's a bit fluffy, yeah, but as good as anything else we got.

-cgmckenzie

What about daemon prince? It is fluff-wise obviously equivalent of a daemon, but yet not quite the denizen of Immaterium; they are not born from pure warp energy.

Going by fluff? A daemon prince from the CSM codex isnt a daemon. Or it is. Depending on which fluff you read, its sometimes a daemon controlling the prince, sometimes the mortal themselves.

Same for possessed - read Storm of Iron for a good example of this, or the word bearer novels. A ttimes the mortal is in control, at times the daemon.

Which is why attempting to use fluff sucks as a basis for rules like this.

This rule sucks. For PE:Orks it is pretty obvious-that green thing running at me is an ork. For Daemons, not so much.

-cgmckenzie

yakface wrote:
Yes, there absolutely is no RAW in this case. Any distinction people are making about what exactly constitutes a 'Daemon' is a distinction based on personal opinion.

The rule does not say preferred enemy against units from the Daemon codex, so we can't know for sure if that is the distinction.

The rule does not say preferred enemy against those units with the 'Daemon' special rule, so we can't know for sure if that is the distinction.

Or it could be any unit with the 'Daemon' special rule AND any unit called a Daemon.

Nobody knows for sure.

I'm looking forward to how INAT handled this one actually, but I guess we're going to have to wait to see GW's faq first.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Going by fluff? A daemon prince from the CSM codex isnt a daemon. Or it is. Depending on which fluff you read, its sometimes a daemon controlling the prince, sometimes the mortal themselves.

Same for possessed - read Storm of Iron for a good example of this, or the word bearer novels. A ttimes the mortal is in control, at times the daemon.

Which is why attempting to use fluff sucks as a basis for rules like this.

Yeah I know.. I'll just wait for the FAQ to clear things up.

cgmckenzie wrote:This rule sucks. For PE:Orks it is pretty obvious-that green thing running at me is an ork. For Daemons, not so much.

-cgmckenzie

Not really for Orks though... Grots are green too

Oh boy...this thread again...

This has been hashed out half a dozen times in the past month alone. No one here has made any points that haven't already been brought up in past threads.

Can we all just agree to decide with our opponent before the start of the game and wait for the FAQ?

Or just go with the least powerful interpretation, based on the army you are playing.

So, if playing GK - only use Codex Daemons and the Avatar as daemons.

If playing against GK - allow daemon princes, etc, as you wish, to count.

Orks is a race, so PE (Orks) works against everything in Codex: Orks.

Daemons is tougher as mentioned that many daemonic things do not have a special rule Daemons. Could it apply to anything that had some form of Daemon as a special rule or in its name? That would exclude vehicles with Daemonic Possession and Possessed, but include Daemon Princes and Summoned Greater/Lesser Daemons.

Homer