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Judging by the 40k v Star Wars thread that was just closed it seems that many people don't understand how to calculate events that happen in the 40k universe. So I'm wondering if people would be interested in my running some numbers as well as posting some work done by Conno MacLeod over at stardestroyer.net. I won't post all of his work, as there are links and a search function for that. I will do my best to get numbers for things people are interested in though.

People don't understand how to calculate events in a fictional (and frankly ridiculous) universe?
We must spread this news!

<post redacted; do not post personal insults, if you want to continue posting on Dakka for long --Janthkin>

Hey...
Don't diss the DCM thing, that's just rude. I only wanted to help keep the site going because i think it's worth it. I was being sarcastic because i think it's funny when people take things like this a touch too serious for their own good.
There's a reason i avoid those threads.

You say you aren't going to be spewing the "garbage" that was on the vs. thread, yet you go ahead and make a personal insult against Purple that has nothing to do with the discussion topic at hand? Color me confused.

So you came here to cause trouble then. Reported.

Me?
No i was actually curious at what math you have behind this.
I was wondering how anyone manages to figure anything out considering the relative impossibility of most sci-fi universes and the numbers they tend to use.

coolyo294 wrote:You say you aren't going to be spewing the "garbage" that was on the vs. thread, yet you go ahead and make a personal insult against Purple that has nothing to do with the discussion topic at hand? Color me confused.

He threw the first punch by insulting the very idea of this thread. I also said that they were spewing unresearched garbage, I never said a thing about what I would say. Maybe you should try reading.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

purplefood wrote:Me?
No i was actually curious at what math you have behind this.
I was wondering how anyone manages to figure anything out considering the relative impossibility of most sci-fi universes and the numbers they tend to use.

It's actually pretty easy to do.

For example the math for calculating the energy required to melt a 1,000km block of ice is easy to do. Same with blowing up an asteroid of varying sizes. Blowing up a planet can be done as well. Same with shattering a continent.

For speed you can read the books, or you can watch the movie in the case of Star Wars. We saw a torpedo make a very, very, high G turn in the first movie.

But aren't the varying depictions of these weapons' power different from author to author?
Same for the strength of their armour and shields?

So hang on, purplefood is the one making an ass out of himself?


It's very difficult to get such measurements for 40k, becuase they don't really go into much detail. Nowhere does it state what sort of energy goes into upholding a gellar field, nor does it say what the energy output of their weapons are.

Sure, you can make comparitive examples. For example, Star Wars shields aren't capable of blocking asteroids (or quickly weaken the shields until one gets through), as seen in ESB. On the other hand, BFG ships have shields that essentially brush aside asteroids (unless the asteroid is nearing the size of the ship itself) per the BFG rules, but the moment that they are without shields and they come into contact with an asteroid there is serious damage (capable of destroying outright smaller escort ships).

The key to doing so in a relaxed and civil manner is, of course, to not be a dick about it if anyone so much as disagrees with you.

purplefood wrote:But aren't the varying depictions of these weapons' power different from author to author?
Same for the strength of their armour and shields?

It's called high and low end values. Generally you look at the factors between the high end, low end, and average examples and figure out a baseline. It's never going to be easy or precise, but you can do it.

Canadian 5th wrote:

purplefood wrote:But aren't the varying depictions of these weapons' power different from author to author?
Same for the strength of their armour and shields?

It's called high and low end values. Generally you look at the factors between the high end, low end, and average examples and figure out a baseline. It's never going to be easy or precise, but you can do it.

That's fairly sneaky... also a touch more logical than most people's ideas.

Emperors Faithful wrote:So hang on, purplefood is the one making an ass out of himself?

It's very difficult to get such measurements for 40k, becuase they don't really go into much detail. Nowhere does it state what sort of energy goes into upholding a gellar field, nor does it say what the energy output of their weapons are.

It can be tough, but isn't really that hard if you're willing to do a little work.

Sure, you can make comparitive examples. For example, Star Wars shields aren't capable of blocking asteroids (or quickly weaken the shields until one gets through), as seen in ESB. On the other hand, BFG ships have shields that essentially brush aside asteroids (unless the asteroid is nearing the size of the ship itself) per the BFG rules, but the moment that they are without shields and they come into contact with an asteroid there is serious damage (capable of destroying outright smaller escort ships).

Ignore the fact that they were in that highly active field, for days at least, and that they likely had shields down for better long range communications and scanning. Not to mention that the ship survived the incident. If an asteroid at that size and speed could really hurt them then they wouldn't need to arm transports with 200 Gigaton/second main guns. Nor would we ships ships capable to melting 1,000km asteroids failing to kill ships in the same weight class.

The key to doing so in a relaxed and civil manner is, of course, to not be a dick about it if anyone so much as disagrees with you.

I'll cut you slack when you can cite sources and produce numbers.

Canadian 5th wrote:

purplefood wrote:But aren't the varying depictions of these weapons' power different from author to author?
Same for the strength of their armour and shields?

It's called high and low end values. Generally you look at the factors between the high end, low end, and average examples and figure out a baseline. It's never going to be easy or precise, but you can do it.

Then how do you reconcile outright contradictory pieces of canon with one another? Like how apparently several million clones are holding off quintillions of droids.

purplefood wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

purplefood wrote:But aren't the varying depictions of these weapons' power different from author to author?
Same for the strength of their armour and shields?

It's called high and low end values. Generally you look at the factors between the high end, low end, and average examples and figure out a baseline. It's never going to be easy or precise, but you can do it.

That's fairly sneaky... also a touch more logical than most people's ideas.

Well, you rarely get authors that go in thinking, well this weapons should be capable of doing X. The authors write stories, not technical reports - not usually at least. Thus it's best if when you see one ship in 40k firing with manual aim and a lone guy with a telescope for targeting they are either very old and from a poor world, or they have recently eaten a ton of damage and were sent out or are still fighting anyway. When we see them running and gunning at long range then that's their top of the line ship from a well off shipyard.

*Deleted because mods do not like this reference*

WAIT YOUR INSULTING PURPLEFOOD?
So he answers your question and you insult him? Wha?

You sir are stepping a fine line between oh noes and *BANNED*

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

purplefood wrote:But aren't the varying depictions of these weapons' power different from author to author?
Same for the strength of their armour and shields?

It's called high and low end values. Generally you look at the factors between the high end, low end, and average examples and figure out a baseline. It's never going to be easy or precise, but you can do it.

Then how do you reconcile outright contradictory pieces of canon with one another? Like how apparently several million clones are holding off quintillions of droids.

Given that her number wasn't actually canon given the fact that officially the word from the owners of the Star Wars property is that a book can only be canon if it doesn't contradict a higher source. Thus, because of what we see in the movies and the fact that other sources mention thousands of ships, a number that wouldn't be needed for so few clones, it gets discounted. Also, her work has been discounted by several other sources within the company and the author has actually made threats against fans online and has been cited as actually aiming to troll the fanbase. We can only be glad she's working on Gears of War stuff now.

Asherian Command wrote:Wow this dude is as bad as Gibralthe XD
As long as he doesn't threat to rape our families i think he will be fine....

WAIT YOUR INSULTING PURPLEFOOD?
So he answers your question and you insult him? Wha?

You sir are stepping a fine line between oh noes and *BANNED*

I totally didn't answer his question.
He can be angry if he likes though i'm a touch confused about his reaction. Lets just drop it and put it behind us like the mature people we all pretend we are... now who wants an ice cream?

Asherian Command wrote:Wow this dude is as bad as Gibralthe XD
As long as he doesn't threat to rape our families i think he will be fine....

WAIT YOUR INSULTING PURPLEFOOD?
So he answers your question and you insult him? Wha?

You sir are stepping a fine line between oh noes and *BANNED*

You sir have added nothing to this thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

purplefood wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Wow this dude is as bad as Gibralthe XD
As long as he doesn't threat to rape our families i think he will be fine....

WAIT YOUR INSULTING PURPLEFOOD?
So he answers your question and you insult him? Wha?

You sir are stepping a fine line between oh noes and *BANNED*

I totally didn't answer his question.
He can be angry if he likes though i'm a touch confused about his reaction. Lets just drop it and put it behind us like the mature people we all pretend we are... now who wants an ice cream?

Given the attitude on this board towards actually doing math and, heck, even typing in proper English I took your first post as more of the same ignorant and tiresome attitude.

purplefood wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Wow this dude is as bad as Gibralthe XD
As long as he doesn't threat to rape our families i think he will be fine....

WAIT YOUR INSULTING PURPLEFOOD?
So he answers your question and you insult him? Wha?

You sir are stepping a fine line between oh noes and *BANNED*

I totally didn't answer his question.
He can be angry if he likes though i'm a touch confused about his reaction. Lets just drop it and put it behind us like the mature people we all pretend we are... now who wants an ice cream?

How'd you know i wanted ice cream
To the freezer!
In all seriousness Canadian8th please for the love of all thats holy stop bickering and asking where are sources are because literally sometimes we have something called a lexcanum and codexes.
We don't have numbers because we can't find.
The only one of us that can do calculations is Ivan who no-longer debates because he is too good at it. (OR hes banned I don't know XD)

Asherian Command wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Wow this dude is as bad as Gibralthe XD
As long as he doesn't threat to rape our families i think he will be fine....

WAIT YOUR INSULTING PURPLEFOOD?
So he answers your question and you insult him? Wha?

You sir are stepping a fine line between oh noes and *BANNED*

I totally didn't answer his question.
He can be angry if he likes though i'm a touch confused about his reaction. Lets just drop it and put it behind us like the mature people we all pretend we are... now who wants an ice cream?

How'd you know i wanted ice cream
To the freezer!
In all seriousness Canadian8th please for the love of all thats holy stop bickering and asking where are sources are because literally sometimes we have something called a lexcanum and codexes.
We don't have numbers because we can't find.
The only one of us that can do calculations is Ivan who no-longer debates because he is too good at it. (OR hes banned I don't know XD)

You guys actually have plenty of quantifiable scenes be they from codex, novel, or game cutscene. If you're too lazy to put the level of work required to win a debate beyond just dogpiling and spamming people with useless stuff then don't debate. If you can't do the simple math that such calculation requires then ask somebody else for help, or give up.

Well this is going to end well...
Still i like the idea. If i was any good at maths or could be bothered to put the work in i might try it.
As it is i would be interested in the results...

Why aren't you getting from this that Gamesworkshop does not provide us with these calculations they only say they did this much damage and thats it.

purplefood wrote:Well this is going to end well...
Still i like the idea. If i was any good at maths or could be bothered to put the work in i might try it.
As it is i would be interested in the results...

The Grand 40k Calculation Thread

You are welcome.

Canadian 5th wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:So hang on, purplefood is the one making an ass out of himself?

It's very difficult to get such measurements for 40k, becuase they don't really go into much detail. Nowhere does it state what sort of energy goes into upholding a gellar field, nor does it say what the energy output of their weapons are.

It can be tough, but isn't really that hard if you're willing to do a little work.

Enlighten me. Onus is on you here, after all.

Sure, you can make comparitive examples. For example, Star Wars shields aren't capable of blocking asteroids (or quickly weaken the shields until one gets through), as seen in ESB. On the other hand, BFG ships have shields that essentially brush aside asteroids (unless the asteroid is nearing the size of the ship itself) per the BFG rules, but the moment that they are without shields and they come into contact with an asteroid there is serious damage (capable of destroying outright smaller escort ships).

Ignore the fact that they were in that highly active field, for days at least,

So you can cite a source where it says that the asteroid field was unusually active, and that the ships had been out there for days. Becuase right now it looks like these excuses are your own personal speculations.

and that they likely had shields down for better long range communications and scanning.

They had shields down? Shields up affect communications and scanning? Oh right, this is more of that speculation that you seem to hate so much.

Not to mention that the ship survived the incident.

Yeah, as would most ships in the Imperial Navy with shields down (unless you rolled like an absolute champion on the Critical Damage table).

If an asteroid at that size and speed could really hurt them then they wouldn't need to arm transports with 200 Gigaton/second main guns.

And how does this measure up to Imperial Navy ship's shields just brushing aside asteroids?

Nor would we ships ships capable to melting 1,000km asteroids failing to kill ships in the same weight class.

"Now would we see ship capable..."?

I'm not saying an ISD couldn't go toe-to-toe with a Cobra Class Escort (in fact it would probably come off better as energy weapons have greater accuracy than ordnance). All I've done is show how you can compare the difference in shield strength.

The key to doing so in a relaxed and civil manner is, of course, to not be a dick about it if anyone so much as disagrees with you.

I'll cut you slack when you can cite sources and produce numbers.

Firstly, what more can I do? What I've told you is simply from the BFG rules for moving through Asteroid fields. If you don't believe me, GW still has the BFG rules sheet on it's website I think, and you can check for yourself.
Secondly, that dick thing I was talking about? You're still failing at it.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat480005a&categoryId=1100007§ion=&aId=4300022

Canadian 5th wrote:

purplefood wrote:Well this is going to end well...
Still i like the idea. If i was any good at maths or could be bothered to put the work in i might try it.
As it is i would be interested in the results...

The Grand 40k Calculation Thread

You are welcome.

Ah...
Much obliged.

Asherian Command wrote:Why aren't you getting from this that Gamesworkshop does not provide us with these calculations they only say they did this much damage and thats it.

So, until the release of the most recent ICS nobody had given Star Wars any hard numbers either. Also, GW gives you descriptions of damage that you can scale from with some google-fu and very basic math. I just linked to an entire thread of calculations for 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

purplefood wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

purplefood wrote:Well this is going to end well...
Still i like the idea. If i was any good at maths or could be bothered to put the work in i might try it.
As it is i would be interested in the results...

The Grand 40k Calculation Thread

You are welcome.

Ah...
Much obliged.

No problem, sorry for the mix up at the start. I'm glad I never bother clicking the little yellow button now.

Canadian 5th wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

purplefood wrote:But aren't the varying depictions of these weapons' power different from author to author?
Same for the strength of their armour and shields?

It's called high and low end values. Generally you look at the factors between the high end, low end, and average examples and figure out a baseline. It's never going to be easy or precise, but you can do it.

Then how do you reconcile outright contradictory pieces of canon with one another? Like how apparently several million clones are holding off quintillions of droids.

Given that her number wasn't actually canon given the fact that officially the word from the owners of the Star Wars property is that a book can only be canon if it doesn't contradict a higher source. Thus, because of what we see in the movies and the fact that other sources mention thousands of ships, a number that wouldn't be needed for so few clones, it gets discounted. Also, her work has been discounted by several other sources within the company and the author has actually made threats against fans online and has been cited as actually aiming to troll the fanbase. We can only be glad she's working on Gears of War stuff now.

So the movies are a reliable basis for looking at standard range in SW naval engagements now? Cool.

But also by that standard, quintillions of droids can be easily discounted, since they couldn't even be transported by hundreds of thousands of ships.

Canadian 5th wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

purplefood wrote:Well this is going to end well...
Still i like the idea. If i was any good at maths or could be bothered to put the work in i might try it.
As it is i would be interested in the results...

The Grand 40k Calculation Thread

You are welcome.

Ah...
Much obliged.

No problem, sorry for the mix up at the start. I'm glad I never bother clicking the little yellow button now.

I'm glad you didn't as well
For what it's worth i apologise for any offense i caused.

Canadian 5th wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Why aren't you getting from this that Gamesworkshop does not provide us with these calculations they only say they did this much damage and thats it.

So, until the release of the most recent ICS nobody had given Star Wars any hard numbers either. Also, GW gives you descriptions of damage that you can scale from with some google-fu and very basic math. I just linked to an entire thread of calculations for 40k.

so your asking me a map developer a guy who just writes things and argues with lore and reads history. And is a history guy, and you tell him to do math. Good luck with that XD. (JK i am also a math guy but I am only in algebra 2) But its all fine and good just don't insult me i'm sensitive to hate.