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I didn't want to bog down another thread with this discussion, so I'm asking it here.

Does the imperium sort the tythings by chapter or by parent Legion? The Templars and Crimson Fists are second foundings from the Imperial Fists. So, would these three chapters tythed geneseed be put in a bank together?

When the imperium has enough geneseed stored, do they decide to make a new chapter? "Ok folks, that fills the Imperial Fists bank. Let's make a new chapter." *Spins the naming wheel* "Emerald Knights!"

Who makes that decision to create and name a new chapter?

Who trains the initial recruits? Do they take a captain from a chapter that shares their geneseed for 10 years?

Where do the Grey Knights get their geneseed? Do they keep their own, or do they draw from the Tythed pool?

They have huge gene banks on Mars that are tested for purity, not sure how they are sorted.

Creation of a new Chapter doesn't happen that often, there have been 25 foundings since the Legions. Keep in mind that many Chapters are destroyed or go rouge, losses must be recouped.

The High Lords decide when to make a new Chapter. The Disciples of Caliban are unique in that they were petitioned by the Dark Angels, although The High Lords had final decision.

IIRC, a number of veterans from the progenitor Chapters train new recruits. Not sure if they return to their Chapter afterwards or if they take positions of rank.

The Grey Knights have the same system as the other Chapters. The Progenoid glands are harvested to make new recruits. Their geneseed supposedly originates from The Emperor, due to its purity and the effects it has on the recipient.

Tithed gene-seed is, as mentioned by Iproxtaco, kept in gene banks on Mars, and regular tests are made to ensure the purity of it.

The part on veterans that he mentions is kind of vague. There's mention that Ultramarine Successors will usually have a command cadre consisting of veterans from the Primogenitors, and I wouldn't be surprised if you see it other places as well.

kronk wrote:Does the imperium sort the tythings by chapter or by parent Legion? The Templars and Crimson Fists are second foundings from the Imperial Fists. So, would these three chapters tythed geneseed be put in a bank together?

That we do not know, to speculate:

Chapters desended from a single primarch will most likely be stored in the same area, with Ultramarine successors it could be likely that the vast majority is just called ultramarine genestock due to the stability.

But some decendants genestock does differ to an extent from its parent chapter.

Their is an example of a much later founding chapter, the astral claws, having its own decendants and knowing about them, so it can be assumed that the genestock was kept seperate.

iproxtaco wrote:Creation of a new Chapter doesn't happen that often, there have been 25 foundings since the Legions. Keep in mind that many Chapters are destroyed or go rouge, losses must be recouped.

There has to be more then 25!
The 21 founding, also called 'The Cursed Founding', took place in the 36th Millennium.
So, you are saying there was 21 foundings in 6,000 years, but only 4 in the last 4,000 years?

The most recent founding was in 738.M41, the 26th.

ToBeWilly wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Creation of a new Chapter doesn't happen that often, there have been 25 foundings since the Legions. Keep in mind that many Chapters are destroyed or go rouge, losses must be recouped.

There has to be more then 25!
The 21 founding, also called 'The Cursed Founding', took place in the 36th Millennium.
So, you are saying there was 21 foundings in 6,000 years, but only 4 in the last 4,000 years?

I guess the Imperium figured they had enough. They've already had a too-many-Space-Marines scenario, and it didn't go well. They're pretty tight on keeping tabs on numbers.

Tithed gene-seed is, as mentioned by Iproxtaco, kept in gene banks on Mars, and regular tests are made to ensure the purity of it.

Just a question : If you purify DNA (as we assume that the gene seed is some sort of virus or artificial chromosome in order to over/re-write the marines' DNA) then it's pure. It's not going to 'mutate' in vivo...

Also as for storage... eppendorfs!

I'm guessing the "purity" question relates more to how "pure" it is for the original stuff. The Astartes geneseed is at this point suffering the "Xerox effect".

Ensure it's purity, free of mutation, they don't purify it.
The Chapters pay a tithe of their most recent geneseed, it is given to Mars, they log it in the banks, and check to make sure it is free of further mutation if any are present. If a mutation has arisen since the last time, then there's cause for concern.

I would imagine each Legion has it's geneseed kept seperate from all the others. The Traitor Legion's geneseed is under a stasis lock (this was mentioned back in the dark days of 2nd Ed), the rest are available for forming new Chapters. If the High Lords want to make a new Ultramrines Chapter, they dip into the pure Ultramarines geneseed and go to work. Same thing if they want a new Blood Angels Chapter.

It starts to get interesting when you consider the 2nd + Founding Chapters. For record keeping purposes, each Chapter's geneseed is kept seperate so the Adminustratum can keep track of who is or isn't starting to mutate. New Chapters are rarely (if ever) made from Successor Founding geneseed. I personally don't know of any, but there could be one I missed. It's just that whenever you see a Chapter in the fluff it's Primogenitor Chapter is listed as a Legion. My guess is this is due to a desire to avoid any potential 'Xerox' effect (as was mentioned earlier).

As far as who trains the new Chapter, I figure some veterans out of the Primogenitor Chapter do it, and then take full command of the new Chapter, effectively transferring to the new Chapter.

iproxtaco wrote:The most recent founding was in 738.M41, the 26th.

Huh... well look at that. You'd think there would of been more.

Do we know for sure that the gene-ssed is kept on Mars?
Codex: Space Marine, page 8,

On Earth the Adeptus Terra set up genetic banks to produce and store Space Narine gene-seed. These banks were used to provide all new gene-seed for Space Marines. To prevent cross-contamination, the genetic stock of each Legion was isolated and henceforth the new Space Marine Chapters would receive gene-seed only from their own genetic stock. The gene-seed of the Traitor Legions was placed under a time-locked stasis seal, although at the time many believed these danerous gene stocks had been destroyed. By taking direct control of the gentic stocks, the Adeptus on Earth could ultimately control the Space Marines. They alone had the power to destroy or create Space Marine armies at will.

Earth would make more sense than Mars. Thanks for that, ToBeWilly.

kronk wrote:...The Templars... tythed geneseed...

Templars? Obey the mandate to tithe geneseed? Preposterous!




Not sure on the specifics, as my Tempars Codex is in my storage unit, but the inside rear cover of the Black Tempars Codex has, among other things, an in-universe note that basically says that the Black Templars routinely fail to submit gene-seed for tithe and refuse to obey the size limit laid forth by the Codex. Not sure what else it says there, but possibly something could be gleaned from there as to the tithing process.

Phototoxin wrote:

Tithed gene-seed is, as mentioned by Iproxtaco, kept in gene banks on Mars, and regular tests are made to ensure the purity of it.

Just a question : If you purify DNA (as we assume that the gene seed is some sort of virus or artificial chromosome in order to over/re-write the marines' DNA) then it's pure. It's not going to 'mutate' in vivo...

Also as for storage... eppendorfs!

You seem to be completely missing the point.

Chapters send a portion of their geneseed (an actual organ of some kind, it does not do anything to a marine as geneseed never get into the body, it is the near complete organs grown from it that do) for two reasons:

a. So that future founding can be made.
b. So that any change in the genestock can be found and if so does it pose a risk, geneseed do mutate as fluff has made this clean. Real world science is always trumped by in universe mechanics.

a. So that future founding can be made

kronk wrote:Earth would make more sense than Mars. Thanks for that, ToBeWilly.

You are very welcome!

Earth actually makes less sense than Mars.

Why? The Mechanicus' "Biologis" branch is what performs the purity tests, and they're based on Mars.

There's been mention of two different facilities. What likely happens is that the majority of it is kept on one planet, and the other planet receives the screened and declared pure geneseed.

squidhills wrote:New Chapters are rarely (if ever) made from Successor Founding geneseed. I personally don't know of any, but there could be one I missed. It's just that whenever you see a Chapter in the fluff it's Primogenitor Chapter is listed as a Legion.

If you look up a few posts you will see a clear example of a later founding being used.

Saying that for example Ultramarine genestock was used could mean two things:
a. that it is genessed directly from the ultramarines
b. a successor of the ultramarines (geneseed drift is very low in ultramarine succesors), and that saying they are from ultramarine stock is a spiritual link

Kanluwen wrote:Earth actually makes less sense than Mars.

Why? The Mechanicus' "Biologis" branch is what performs the purity tests, and they're based on Mars.

There's been mention of two different facilities. What likely happens is that the majority of it is kept on one planet, and the other planet receives the screened and declared pure geneseed.

I disagree. I would imagine since Space Marines were originally created on Earth, all necessary tech is there.
I just don't think that the Imperium would hand over one of its most precious commodities to a soverign entity.
I would believe the Ad Mech's "Biologis" branch would send a team to Earth, if they are in fact the ones that do the test.

Why would they send a team to Earth to do something better accomplished on Mars? That's where the specialist branch is, that's where the genebanks are, Mars is far more convenient.

I belive that there are multiple gene banks in the galaxy in the book "Storm of Iron" the Iron warriors defeated the imperials on planet and took geneseed that was hidden there. This planet was nither Earth nor Mars.

iproxtaco wrote:Why would they send a team to Earth to do something better accomplished on Mars? That's where the specialist branch is, that's where the genebanks are, Mars is far more convenient.

All forge worlds, which Mars is, are sovereign domains of the Adeptus Mechanicus. The Imperium has no authority there.
The Fabricator General, which I think is the title for the head Ad Mech guy, would have control of the Titan Legions and the Space Marines.
He would be the most powerful person in the galaxy, and the Imperium would have no authority over him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

templeorks wrote:I belive that there are multiple gene banks in the galaxy in the book "Storm of Iron" the Iron warriors defeated the imperials on planet and took geneseed that was hidden there. This planet was nither Earth nor Mars.

Every chapter would also have storage facilities somewhere.

It's a symbiotic relationship. Despite being allies more than a single force, they rely on each other. The Fabricator General decides to start messing with the geneseed, which would have no effect on the Space Marines anyway, then they find that their resources get cut off, or their transports are stopped by Imperial Navy ships.

The Space Marines and the Inqusition are the Lap Dogs of the Highlords of Terra.

iproxtaco wrote:It's a symbiotic relationship. Despite being allies more than a single force, they rely on each other. The Fabricator General decides to start messing with the geneseed, which would have no effect on the Space Marines anyway, then they find that their resources get cut off, or their transports are stopped by Imperial Navy ships.

The Imperium need the Ad Mech more then the Ad Mech need the Imperium.
The Ad Mech produces and maintains all tech. They produce all weapons and armour.
The IOM has manpower. Thats pretty much it.
Why would the IOM give them more political power. It just doesn't make political sense.

Asherian Command wrote:The Space Marines and the Inqusition are the Lap Dogs of the Highlords of Terra.

That means so is the:
Arbites
Imperial Guard
Adeptus Mechanicus
Navigators
Astropaths
Admininstratum
Munitorum
Ecclesiarchy
Sisters of Battle
Grey Knights
Deathwatch
In fact pretty much every Imperial Organisation.

ToBeWilly wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:It's a symbiotic relationship. Despite being allies more than a single force, they rely on each other. The Fabricator General decides to start messing with the geneseed, which would have no effect on the Space Marines anyway, then they find that their resources get cut off, or their transports are stopped by Imperial Navy ships.

The Imperium need the Ad Mech more then the Ad Mech need the Imperium.
The Ad Mech produces and maintains all tech. They produce all weapons and armour.
The IOM has manpower. Thats pretty much it.
Why would the IOM give them more political power. It just doesn't make political sense.

The Imperium provides safety, manpower and resources.

I don't understand what you think the Adeptus Mechanicus is able to do with this. There are genebanks in other places.

iproxtaco wrote:The Imperium provides safety, manpower and resources.

I don't understand what you think the Adeptus Mechanicus is able to do with this. There are genebanks in other places.

Gene-seed is the life-blood ( quite literally ) of the Space Marines. Heavily guarded and revered, or so I'm led to believe.
I just think that the IOM would do everything in its power to make sure it stays under their control.

ToBeWilly wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:The Imperium provides safety, manpower and resources.

I don't understand what you think the Adeptus Mechanicus is able to do with this. There are genebanks in other places.

Gene-seed is the life-blood ( quite literally ) of the Space Marines. Heavily guarded and revered, or so I'm led to believe.
I just think that the IOM would do everything in its power to make sure it stays under their control.

Yeah, it is, but what do you expect the Mechanicus to be able to do with the geneseed to manipulate them in some way? Every Chapter has their own, there are numerous other holding sites, Terra likely has genebanks as well. There's little they could do to harm the Space Marines or the Imperium. Tampering would simple lead to retaliation.

iproxtaco wrote:Yeah, it is, but what do you expect the Mechanicus to be able to do with the geneseed to manipulate them in some way? Every Chapter has their own, there are numerous other holding sites, Terra likely has genebanks as well. There's little they could do to harm the Space Marines or the Imperium. Tampering would simple lead to retaliation.

Codex: Space Marine, page 8, 4th paragraph:

On Earth the Adeptus Terra set up genetic banks to produce and store Space Narine gene-seed. These banks were used to provide all new gene-seed for Space Marines. To prevent cross-contamination, the genetic stock of each Legion was isolated and henceforth the new Space Marine Chapters would receive gene-seed only from their own genetic stock. The gene-seed of the Traitor Legions was placed under a time-locked stasis seal, although at the time many believed these danerous gene stocks had been destroyed. By taking direct control of the gentic stocks, the Adeptus on Earth could ultimately control the Space Marines. They alone had the power to destroy or create Space Marine armies at will.

It seems from this bit of fluff all gene-seed must pass through the Adeptus Terra.
That is why I don't believe any is keep outside Earth, or the Space Marines themselves.