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So if the souls of all living things are fated to be eaten by the chaos gods...

then whats the point?

Whats the point for the Imperium to still continue fighting?

Whats the point for the Space Marines or the Imperial Guard to do anything?

If the souls of everybody; even those of Epic heroes such as Commissar Yarrick or Calgar or Marbo or Gabriel Angelos are all fated to be the playthings of the Chaos gods then whats the point of their awesomeness? They're just going to be souls to feed the chaos gods

Man that piece of Fluff is WORSE then anything Matt Ward created; even Matt Ward working with Uwe Boll and Michael Bay to write a Warhammer 40k movie script while drunk and watching The Care Bears would not result in anything close

Well if you're gonna get eaten by the Chaos Gods anyway you may as well make sure hellis packed when you get there...
Better than doing nothing...

I thought the faithful departed get to stand at the side of the Emprah, singing hosannas and all that? Or absorbed into his warp presence or whatever.

rabidaskal wrote:I thought the faithful departed get to stand at the side of the Emprah, singing hosannas and all that? Or absorbed into his warp presence or whatever.

They hope they do...
Whether they actually do is kinda not as certain.

But it is going to be packed in Hell anyway if every soul is going to end up there.
So you may as well stay at home with the wife and kids and live to a ripe old age (assuming the nids don't show) and enjoy what you can of life.
Make perpetual lurve not war.

Ripe old age?
If you don't fight everyone dies even quicker...
And, it's more than likely they will die in far nastier ways.

Like I said in the other thread, that's always been the point of 40K: Everyone is fethed, but Emperor damn it, they're not going down without a fight. That's the quintessence of the human spirit; no matter how hopeless things are, people keep fighting. We, as outside observers privy to many of the machinations of humanity's enemies, know that it is hopeless. But the Imperium doesn't know what we know.

Not to start this kind of debate, but even if there was empirical evidence that there was no afterlife and once we're dead, that's it, there are still people who would persist in the belief of heaven or reincarnation or nirvana or something like that.

Just saw that other thread about the afterlife, durr me.

Anyway if all human souls are fated to pass into the warp when they die, why do daemons make such a big deal about eating souls while the humans are alive? Billions of human die on a daily basis anyway, so they have a constant food supply.

The only thing I can think of is maybe 'living' souls taste more delicious. Still, seems like a whole lot of trouble to set up your own cult, guide your disciples to ever-greater acts of heresy over a few decades and finally get yourself summoned to nom nom nom some Tasty Bacon souls. Plus the GK will show up eventually and banish you screaming, which is probably rather unpleasant.

When humans die and their souls enter the warp, they are barely conscious entities. So yes, it actually is that much more delicious, that much more sustaining, to eat fresh souls right from the source. That also applies to the C'Tan. Souls afflicted with fear are delicious to the Nightbringer, while the Deceiver relishes the souls of the betrayed and confused. Getting banished back to the Warp, while probably painful and frustrating, is no big deal. You're a daemon. You can always come back. Besides, the entire purpose of Daemons is to inflict suffering upon mortals.

RatBot wrote:Like I said in the other thread, that's always been the point of 40K: Everyone is fethed, but Emperor damn it, they're not going down without a fight. That's the quintessence of the human spirit; no matter how hopeless things are, people keep fighting. We, as outside observers privy to many of the machinations of humanity's enemies, know that it is hopeless. But the Imperium doesn't know what we know.

Not to start this kind of debate, but even if there was empirical evidence that there was no afterlife and once we're dead, that's it, there are still people who would persist in the belief of heaven or reincarnation or nirvana or something like that.

It's not pointless to fight.
Every second you can delay the inevitable is a small victory for mankind.

I didn't say pointless, I said hopeless.

But yeah, it's not pointless because it gives humanity precious time to live. But it's ultimately hopeless because, one way or another, humanity will be overwhelmed eventually.

But basically that, Presidentofasia. If you were going to die, and you were pretty sure there was no afterlife, wouldn't you fight harder to live longer?

That makes sense. So its like daemons are the Tyranids of souls. They should ally to promote Zero Food Wastage.

Ah, another hapless human. Biomass for you, and his shrieking, succulent soul for me.

RatBot wrote:I didn't say pointless, I said hopeless.

But yeah, it's not pointless because it gives humanity precious time to fight some more. But it's ultimately hopeless because, one way or another, humanity will be overwhelmed eventually.

Fixed that for you.

Oh, also, for daemons, it isn't just souls the feed Chaos gods, it's emotion. Whenever you become angry, when you froth with rage, when you shout out in fury, Khorne grows stronger. When you scheme for power, or search for forbidden knowledge, when someone has hopes and dreams, hell, when something as simple as an unexpected change occurs, Tzeentch's power waxes. When mankind despairs, when an epidemic decimates a population, Nurgle delights in it. When you thirst for wealth, for fame, for love, for money, when you desire anything with a passion, when pride overtakes you, Slaanesh feeds.

In fact, Nurgle's followers are probably happiest; they embrace decay and destruction, and rejoice in it, and Nurgle dotes on them like a loving grandfather... it just so happens that his doting results in poxes, buboes, tumors, and disease. In defiance of disease and decay, they rejoice; the more horrible their afflictions, the greater their joy.

Human souls arn't strong enough to maintain awareness after entering the warp. so human souls are pretty bland when they die.

Eldar, and psyker, souls on the other hand do maintain awareness after death and so are very tasty and amusing playthings.



so Daemons go after living humans who can actually squeal when getting eaten.

Human souls are not usually instantly devoured. Upon death, the wad of psychic energy that is their soul simply melts back into the Warp, no longer bound together by a consciousness. They return into Warp-stuff, to be fought over by the Chaos Gods in their Great Game until the end of time.
Daemons and Chaos Gods can circumvent this through pacts and/or worship, either act promising the soul and the soul's power upon death to the entity in question.
Daemons have a third option, in which they can invade realspace and kill a mortal themselves, eating the soul on the spot.

The Emperor protects those who fight in his name.

PresidentOfAsia wrote:So if the souls of all living things are fated to be eaten by the chaos gods...

then whats the point?

Whats the point for the Imperium to still continue fighting?

Whats the point for the Space Marines or the Imperial Guard to do anything?

If the souls of everybody; even those of Epic heroes such as Commissar Yarrick or Calgar or Marbo or Gabriel Angelos are all fated to be the playthings of the Chaos gods then whats the point of their awesomeness? They're just going to be souls to feed the chaos gods

Man that piece of Fluff is WORSE then anything Matt Ward created; even Matt Ward working with Uwe Boll and Michael Bay to write a Warhammer 40k movie script while drunk and watching The Care Bears would not result in anything close

Do not believe Chaos propaganda...for that is the way of Daemons and their followers to lie and mislead us into fall and corruption.
And their fans to, they will tell you anything to make you believe their way. There is no evidence in fluff that every living soul is devoured by Chaos gods, as I said souls must be claimed. As for Commissar Yarrick or Calgar or Marbo or Gabriel Angelos and others - they are chosen of the Light, the Crusaders of the Righteous and the Champions of Mankind. Their souls can never fall to Chaos or be claimed by Chaos gods, after they die, they will met themselves at the Emperor who will lead them to victory against Chaos dominion in Warp and beyond.

Brother Coa wrote:

PresidentOfAsia wrote:So if the souls of all living things are fated to be eaten by the chaos gods...

then whats the point?

Whats the point for the Imperium to still continue fighting?

Whats the point for the Space Marines or the Imperial Guard to do anything?

If the souls of everybody; even those of Epic heroes such as Commissar Yarrick or Calgar or Marbo or Gabriel Angelos are all fated to be the playthings of the Chaos gods then whats the point of their awesomeness? They're just going to be souls to feed the chaos gods

Man that piece of Fluff is WORSE then anything Matt Ward created; even Matt Ward working with Uwe Boll and Michael Bay to write a Warhammer 40k movie script while drunk and watching The Care Bears would not result in anything close

Do not believe Chaos propaganda...for that is the way of Daemons and their followers to lie and mislead us into fall and corruption.
And their fans to, they will tell you anything to make you believe their way. There is no evidence in fluff that every living soul is devoured by Chaos gods, as I said souls must be claimed. As for Commissar Yarrick or Calgar or Marbo or Gabriel Angelos and others - they are chosen of the Light, the Crusaders of the Righteous and the Champions of Mankind. Their souls can never fall to Chaos or be claimed by Chaos gods, after they die, they will met themselves at the Emperor who will lead them to victory against Chaos dominion in Warp and beyond.

My faith is my shield...

AND MY FURY IS MY SWORD!!!!
FOR THE EMPEROR BROTHERS!!!

"I am the hammer, I am the right hand of the Emperor, the instrument of His will, the gauntlet about His fist, the tip of His spear, the edge of His sword."

They have no idea, in universe, what's going to happen to them. Ordinary citizens believe they will die and be with The Emperor, their faith makes them fight during life.

PresidentOfAsia wrote:Man that piece of Fluff is WORSE then anything Matt Ward created; even Matt Ward working with Uwe Boll and Michael Bay to write a Warhammer 40k movie script while drunk and watching The Care Bears would not result in anything close

I beg to differ. It is, in fact, the heart and soul of the 40K universe and it always has been. It's meant to be bleak, it's meant to be hopeless. That's what makes it different from all the many, many sci-fi settings where the plucky, outnumbered heroes triumph against all odds. If they triumph in 40K, it's because they were being backed by a Chaos god, unbeknownst to them, or the Eldar were using them as pawns. It's the feel of a setting where the 'good guys' bombard planets into ash and molten rock just in case. Where millions upon millions of lives are poured into the meat grinder as a result of an administrative error.

There are loads of settings where the heroes come out on top, and everybody can be happy at the end, and people Learn Lessons and Make A Difference. 40K is the salt to their sugar. It is grim. It is dark. And there is only war for war's sake. The stories we tell in these battles are the stories of heroic acts by doomed people, struggling despite the lack of hope, despite the almost inevitable extinction of all they fight for. Sure, it's not as obviously rewarding as fighting towards some universal victory in the far future, but personally, I wouldn't have it any other way. This is coming from someone who has fought on the side of the Imperium of Man for 14 years now.

I'm with htj on this one. What I like most about 40k is that the little guy can't make a difference. So many Sci FI setting have epic events occuring yet one man changes everything. In 40k if you start out as a guy working in a factory on a back water planet you die as a guy working on a backwater planet. It allows for a lot more realistic situations (with the limitations of the background). If a planet full of innocent humans is about to be engulfed by the tyranids they don't come up with some amazing plan to save them, they just get eaten.

The point of them fighting is to survive longer, just a second less in hell is a great thing. If they can defeat realspace enemies such as the orks or tyranids people have longer to enjoy (ok this is the imperium so maybe that is the wrong word) their lives. Surely knowing death = going to hell would make you fight more. Just believing that your fighting makes a difference is enough for most people. Most humans believe they are going to be saved by the emperor. From a human perspective where you go is irrelevant, your soul loses conciousness at death so going to hell is the same as heaven. You may feed the chaos gods but since your dead it doesn't matter.

From an outside perspective it looks bad but you just have to focus on the short term. Look at real life, every one is going to die, that's it, but people still have goals and aims. They know in the end their achievements won't have any real meaning but it's enough for them.

^

I agree 100%
"Where is your Sheppard now?"

There are some indications in the fluff that the Emperor can save the souls of His faithful; the Thorian book, for instance, describes an Imperial saint who was resurrected. The man described being in the presence of a golden light he believed to be the Emperor.

This is mostly pedantry, though, because it misses the question of the "point." When the President of Asia asks what the "point" is, he seems to be assuming there was ever a chance that the Imperium would win.

The thing about the Grim Darkness of the Far Future is that people see the forces of Chaos as being opposed by Order, in a Moorcock-style duality. This is a fundamental misunderstanding.

Chaos is a vast ocean in a storm. It's deep, it's black, and it's violent, and it never stops. No matter what you do, no matter how far you go, you will never see land. On this ocean is a ramshackle raft made of whatever scrap and driftwood its inhabitants were able to cobble together. The bottom leaks, the bits on the sides are falling off when the waves hit, and the whole thing is threatening to fly apart any second. This is the Imperium.
The raft will not prevail. The raft will not defeat the ocean. Sooner or later, the raft is going to come apart and everyone on it is going to die. Until it does, your only options are to work yourself to the bone keeping that raft on the water, or taking a dive off the side.

Arturius wrote:There are some indications in the fluff that the Emperor can save the souls of His faithful; the Thorian book, for instance, describes an Imperial saint who was resurrected. The man described being in the presence of a golden light he believed to be the Emperor.

This is mostly pedantry, though, because it misses the question of the "point." When the President of Asia asks what the "point" is, he seems to be assuming there was ever a chance that the Imperium would win.

The thing about the Grim Darkness of the Far Future is that people see the forces of Chaos as being opposed by Order, in a Moorcock-style duality. This is a fundamental misunderstanding.

Chaos is a vast ocean in a storm. It's deep, it's black, and it's violent, and it never stops. No matter what you do, no matter how far you go, you will never see land. On this ocean is a ramshackle raft made of whatever scrap and driftwood its inhabitants were able to cobble together. The bottom leaks, the bits on the sides are falling off when the waves hit, and the whole thing is threatening to fly apart any second. This is the Imperium.
The raft will not prevail. The raft will not defeat the ocean. Sooner or later, the raft is going to come apart and everyone on it is going to die. Until it does, your only options are to work yourself to the bone keeping that raft on the water, or taking a dive off the side.

Tom Hanks survived it in Cast Away (but with heavy casualties as he lost Wilson just as the Imperium can potentially pull through it with the sacrifice of the billions of guardsmen and thousands of Space Marines who died standing)

edit: No one can win technically as GW would not want to end the series to they can make more money

I believe (note that this is my point of view on fluff that I have read and may contradict pieces of existing fluff that I have not come across) that went souls enter the warp they are naturally drawn toward the warp entity with which they most aligned. As the chaos gods are the most powerful the majority obviously goes to them but there are other entities that possess great power that draw souls.

There is also the idea that the Emperor is slowly creating a warp presence that could rival the chaos gods through the faithful and there could be the existence of positive warp entities though there lacks any evidence and would always be unlikely with all the grimdark.

Another line of thinking is that even though Chaos is a evil force would the complete manifestation of chaos be a completely bad thing? If Slaanesh were to wrest control of the galaxy would it be terrible that everyone got to enjoy the massive orgies and ecstasies of pleasure? Nurgle would be able to extend his paternal love to all and people would rejoice when they received his blessings and would receive the love and care of their fellows like a parent caring for a sick child. So while the idea of all souls going to feed the chaos gods make it seem hopeless I always enjoy the idea of chaos being a force of nature that lacks evil intention (maybe except Tzeentch) and is simply seen as evil as they are attempting to force their ideals upon the Imperium.

Remus wrote:I believe (note that this is my point of view on fluff that I have read and may contradict pieces of existing fluff that I have not come across) that went souls enter the warp they are naturally drawn toward the warp entity with which they most aligned. As the chaos gods are the most powerful the majority obviously goes to them but there are other entities that possess great power that draw souls.

There is also the idea that the Emperor is slowly creating a warp presence that could rival the chaos gods through the faithful and there could be the existence of positive warp entities though there lacks any evidence and would always be unlikely with all the grimdark.

Another line of thinking is that even though Chaos is a evil force would the complete manifestation of chaos be a completely bad thing? If Slaanesh were to wrest control of the galaxy would it be terrible that everyone got to enjoy the massive orgies and ecstasies of pleasure? Nurgle would be able to extend his paternal love to all and people would rejoice when they received his blessings and would receive the love and care of their fellows like a parent caring for a sick child. So while the idea of all souls going to feed the chaos gods make it seem hopeless I always enjoy the idea of chaos being a force of nature that lacks evil intention (maybe except Tzeentch) and is simply seen as evil as they are attempting to force their ideals upon the Imperium.

Except Slaanesh wresting control of the galaxy wouldn't be an odyssey of love and fluffy happiness. It would be a galaxy of hedonistic rape-gangs and galactic radio stations playing Rebecca Black music. Constantly.

Nurgle 'extending his paternal love' would mean spawning abscesses in not-so-ideal areas that make your adolescent years look like heaven.

Chaos is not fun when you're unwilling.

It would probably be somwhere in between. People would group together depending on how far they wished to go with their chaos worship. Some planets would be normal worlds where people do all the usual things but pray to chaos rather than the emperor, others would be twisted into giant temples to chaos where thousands of people are sacrificed every day.

Neither chaos planets or the IoM is a nice place to be if you don't agree with them.