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I got a buddy up at my FLGS that has Necrons. I rarely beat him and his effin robot zombies. He plays with 1 or 2 monoliths then warriors with 1 or 2 lords and the other squads have a tomb spider. I've had trouble getting rid of 15+ warriors and the spider/lord in one shooting or assault phase. I think mindwar will help with that even though it may not be the most effective if I can kill the lord/spider I can wipe out the rest pretty easily.

HQ

Eldrad -------------------------------------------210

Farseer -----------------------------------------150
SS, RoWit, Doom, Mindwar, Guide

TROOPS

2 x 10 Dire Avengers ---------------------344
Exarch w/ Diresword and Shuripistol, bladestorm, and defend

2 x Wave Serpent -------------------------230
shuricannon & star engines

ELITES

2 x 10 Howling Banshees ---------------374
Exarch w/ Executioner & Acrobatic

2 x Wave Serpent ------------------------230
Shuricannon & Star Engines


HEAVY SUPPORT

3 x Fire Prism ------------------------------450
Holofields

Total: 1988

I mean it's a tough call. If it's objectives, you can try to pick off Monos or something from the back, I guess, and try to force his necrons out.
Really until I know his list it's hard to say, however, you have the right idea. Ignore most of his crap and his monoliths and take out those 'cron warriors. It's just a question of how to best get at them.

Just a little trimming and I think you could wipe the floor with him.

For example, never give your Farseer 3 powers - she can't use them all. Doom and Guide will serve you much better because if his lords have res orbs then they're basically gonna get back up if you "kill" them with Mind War.

Drop the diresword and defend on your dire avengers. You don't want them in close combat. Give the exarch the twin shuriken catapults and keep bladestorm.

Drop star engines on all your vehicles, I mean you can literally cross the entire board in 2 turns, the star engines arn't going to help too much.

With all your points saved you should be able to afford some scatter laser/ eldar missle launchers on your wave serpents.

Hope this helps!

Iranna.

Iranna wrote:Just a little trimming and I think you could wipe the floor with him.

For example, never give your Farseer 3 powers - she can't use them all. Doom and Guide will serve you much better because if his lords have res orbs then they're basically gonna get back up if you "kill" them with Mind War.

Drop the diresword and defend on your dire avengers. You don't want them in close combat. Give the exarch the twin shuriken catapults and keep bladestorm.

Drop star engines on all your vehicles, I mean you can literally cross the entire board in 2 turns, the star engines arn't going to help too much.

With all your points saved you should be able to afford some scatter laser/ eldar missle launchers on your wave serpents.

Hope this helps!

Iranna.

Good advice. And Farseers aren't always female!!

I would also drop the third prism and get two war walkers with dual scatter lasers. You then have thirty points to spend on ML or more scatter lasers. If you just target his infantry they will fall. There's only a certain amount of times he can make a 4+ roll. Not to mention you'll be pretty much making his res orb useless if you shoot the lord's squads with scatter lasers.

One piece of advice for your banshees against necrons as well. I run the exact same combination as you. I played against a necron player the other weekend and his lord had the lightning field upgrade. Every time you hit or wound (can't remember which) the necron lord or his squad, your unit automatically gets a Str3 hit in return. That wiped out five of my banshees in a single turn, so I'd make sure he doesn't have that before charging into him with your banshees;

I'd consider a full Seer Council led by a Fortuneseer either on jetbikes or in a Serpent. The Seers can take down Monos quite nicely unless you want to ignore them. For this, you have to put pressure on him with your whole force.

Seer councils take up wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too many points for how much they do. Banshees are a much better close combat unit. Seer councils do get destructor and enhance but 30 power weapon hits will still kill more than they do.

I disagree with the 3 powers. Its only 20pts to put on several wounds on to a character is nice(i'm only bringing mindwar if I'm playing necrons). I have stopped relying on the serpents guns for anti infantry. I use them as battering rams after I deployed lol. The point of the star engines is to be on their side of the board on turn 1. then turn 2 I deploy shoot/assault.



I played against GreyKnights and Tau with a slight variation in this list and it worked flawlessly(dropped mindwar and dropped defend and put on 2 shuripults and add brightlances to my DA serpents). Both games were annihilation and I won against grey knights 4KPs to 8KPs. The fire prisms did great and took out a whole strike squad. And I completely wiped out the Tau player 2KPs to his whole army(forgot how many squads). And one squad of my banshees took out 2 squads of crisis suits 1 broadside squad and 1 pathfinder squad. With star engines I got behind his crisis suit gunline and bladestorm/assaulted the s*** out of everything.

If he's smart, he's probably going to be running something like this:

Lord, veil res orb = 200

10 warriors x2 = 360

10 immortals = 280

3 destroyers x3 = 450

3 monoliths = 705

total = 1995 (alternatively a variation with a d-lord and 30 warriors and no immortals)


If I were to fight your list, I'd probably go with the variant of what's listed above. The warriors would start in reserve, and the destroyers behind a line of monoliths. I'd immediately target your fire prisms. With any luck each unit of destroyers would get a weapon destroyed on each prism, removing the only threat to the monoliths. Same turn, any monolith that was not needed to disable a prism would target the closest WS.

You'd get your turn, and likely get a few glances or an immobilize on the monoliths. Your WS would get close and unload, but unlikely have a shot on the destroyers. Any damage you would do would be mitigated by the lord.

My next turn would likely see a warrior squad come in from table edge. They'd be moved behind the monolith line. Any unit of destroyers that lost models would be ported through to recover more. I'm still likely going to have a monolith free to particle whip the ball of units that got out of your WS. Anything left would be shot by destroyers. This would rinse/repeat with me jumping onto the other side of the monoliths every time you got close to damaging one of the units.

I'm not saying that it's unbeatable, it certainly is, but you need to take into consideration that the two most viable necron units atm are the destroyer and monolith, and your list is ill equipped to deal with them once the fire prisms are down.

Good job giving yourself the win. But those fire prisms with holo-fields are the most survivable heavy tanks the eldar have. Wave serpents do have the energyshield but they can only have up to str8 weapons, str10 ap1 twin linked is nice.

What I was getting at is that those fire prisms are still only armor 12, and the monolith particle whip is s9 ap1 ord. which completely negates your holo fields. The other issue with the prisms is it takes 2 to get that tl s10 ap1 shot and 2 weapon destroys on those prisms makes it impossible. You can't stop the particle whip shot of destroying the monolith.

I was trying to illustrate how unequipped you are to deal with the monoliths, and provide you a worst-case scenario so that you would think up a way to counter it. As I don't play Eldar, I can't just give you the answer. The only thing I can say is that a monolith/destroyer heavy army against your list is virtually unkillable without some serious luck.

In short, you need to think about what you'd do if those prisms do drop. Specifically, you need to get into close range with the Necrons as soon as humanly possible. Unfortunately, Eldar is ill equipped to handle that tactic for the most part.

Like I said previously, while phase out is likely your best option, if the 'cron player is smart he'll reserve his warriors and have enough of them that you're going to be looking at a 10 phase out at worst.

In short, I wasn't 'giving myself the win' I was explaining what an ideal scenario for the necron player would look like so you can recognize it and try and dismantle it.

Eldar have the issue of lacking many weapons that can ID T4+ models easily, and with a wall as big as 3 monoliths, it will not be easy to get within range to pop things easily.

My personal advice would be take a unit of fire dragons, but like I said, I don't play Eldar and am just working on my knowledge of Necron tactics.

While I'm not a big fan of the list it is about as tailored as you can get to meta game Crons. My only suggestion is drop the star engines and upgrade to Scatter lasers. The range and extra shot will vastly outweigh the benefit of start engines.

On the 3 lith list, you'd be phased out in a heartbeat by the list. Partical whip really isn't that scary and Eldar have the speed to dodge the Monolith till the warriors arrive. IF the whip manages to land with an AP1 shot, the holofields will typically shrug off the damage. The banshees will be the real game winners when they destroy whole packs of crons in a single assault and phase out faster then you can say "god I need a dex update".

Thanks for the advice. I've found firedragons to be rather noneffective against monoliths. The cockblocking of the melta makes them only a spam of str8 shots. Not worth the points to me.

What percentage of models has to be gone for a phase out?

ordanance weapon = roll twice take highest
holofields = roll twice take lowest

They negate each other. In the variant list I was talking about there are 44 necrons (32 warriors, 11 destroyers, 1 lord). 75% losses is 33 necrons meaning you'd need to get it down to 11 necrons. With 3 squads in reserve, you won't even get this chance until at least turn 3 on average. If the 'con player gets lucky you won't get a chance at phase out at all if the last squad comes in on T5 and the game ends.

The banshees cannot assault out of the WS, which means that the monoliths get a full round to drop 3 s9 ap3 large blasts on them. Only one of those needs to actually hit for the ENTIRE squad to be ID'd.

Edit: Nevermind actually catching the warriors. They should be within 18in of a monolith portal at all times, which means the second you go for a squad of warriors, it's going to port 18+ inches away, and well out of assault range.

Well i'm playing the necron player on wednesday and I'll let you know how it goes.

Please do, I'd like to know how effective that list is in practice. Keeping those prisms alive is going to be critical, I think.

As much as I theorycraft in this thread, it really will boil down to 3 things. How you play, how he plays, and the dice gods. There isn't anything glaringly wrong with your list (at least nothing you can fix), and you certainly have at least an average shot at winning. It's going to come down to execution, as it usually does.

@wanderingfox: ordinance and holo-fields IN NO WAY negate each other!

Its quite simply two different dice rolls that they affect.
The ordinance rule is that for the armour penetration roll you roll two dice and choose the highest (for the whip thats s9 + highest of the two d6). So the ord. rules helps the AT-shot with actually penetrating. But its NOT roll two dice ON the damage table and choose highest, which seems to be what you are implying.
And thats where the holo-field has its effect: on the damage table its makes you roll two dice and choose the lowest. So a holo-field is actually VERY good versus ordinance (and any other single shot long range AT.). Because even though ord. is very good at penetrating or glancing you, the holofield means that most often that hit will still not destroy you.

And for the record, banshees CAN charge out of the wave serpent. Just not if the serpent moved before they disembarked that turn.I know thats obvious, but so many talk about "not being able to charge out of serpents", so i just have to add this: even though the serpent isnt 'assault-classified', like a land raider for example, you STILL dont need to disembark and expose your squad on the ground the turn before you charge. Just keep them IN the serpent. Its still possible to, say, zoom the serpents 24". And then, next turn, disembarking 2", moving 6", fleeting d6" and charging d6" with the banshees....! (or with a council, that imo IS a better assault squad than the banshees, and yes also in point-for-point comparison, but thats another discussion).

In general i agree that the OP list is very good at battling necrons.

Seer councils take up wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too many points for how much they do. Banshees are a much better close combat unit. Seer councils do get destructor and enhance but 30 power weapon hits will still kill more than they do.

I strongly disagree here. I've played a Council at several occasions, RTTs and GTs. It never disappointed me.
Banshees were good in 3rd and 4th ed, but they are not in the current incarnation of the game. They are only good in cc when the enemy MEQ unit is doomed.
On the other hand, a Council is an anvil unit in cc and it becomes a hammer unit if you add Eldrad and Yriel.

@wuestenfux: Yeah i agree the seer council is SO much better than the banshees its not even funny

LordofMuck wrote:@wuestenfux: Yeah i agree the seer council is SO much better than the banshees its not even funny

Perhaps, but you must also take into account the points cost of the unit. A seer council with Eldrad or Yriel is much more expensive than a ten man banshee squad with doomseer. That's kind of like comparing a 5 man assault squad to a TH/SS termi unit. the terminators are better, but you need more points to field them.

@Lord R: True! But even "naked", fortune seer w/ 10 warlocks vs Doomseer w/ 10 banshees... I know what id take Or rather, id like to take the banshees (cause i freaking love em, have 27 of those babies + 3 exarchs), but the council has so (!) much more durablity, and can also take on tanks, T6+ MCs and hordes, and act as a great tarpit unit etc
THe main selling point for the council is the durability and the ability to do multiple roles (whereas i feel banshees are most solely anti-MEQ)

Banshees WITH doomseer is good too (my opponents just KNOW their good AND fragile, so....)

LordofMuck wrote:@wanderingfox: ordinance and holo-fields IN NO WAY negate each other!

Its quite simply two different dice rolls that they affect.
The ordinance rule is that for the armour penetration roll you roll two dice and choose the highest (for the whip thats s9 + highest of the two d6). So the ord. rules helps the AT-shot with actually penetrating. But its NOT roll two dice ON the damage table and choose highest, which seems to be what you are implying.
And thats where the holo-field has its effect: on the damage table its makes you roll two dice and choose the lowest. So a holo-field is actually VERY good versus ordinance (and any other single shot long range AT.). Because even though ord. is very good at penetrating or glancing you, the holofield means that most often that hit will still not destroy you.

A forgive me. Like I said, I don't play Eldar, and very few people I play against do (one in fact, and he doesn't usually run fire prisms). Though with that said, if the particle whip pens its a 50% chance of a vehicle destroyed (4+). Even with a reroll that's still a 1 in 4 shot (50% chance to roll the first 4+, then another 50% chance for the second 4+).

LordofMuck wrote: And for the record, banshees CAN charge out of the wave serpent. Just not if the serpent moved before they disembarked that turn.I know thats obvious, but so many talk about "not being able to charge out of serpents", so i just have to add this: even though the serpent isnt 'assault-classified', like a land raider for example, you STILL dont need to disembark and expose your squad on the ground the turn before you charge. Just keep them IN the serpent. Its still possible to, say, zoom the serpents 24". And then, next turn, disembarking 2", moving 6", fleeting d6" and charging d6" with the banshees....! (or with a council, that imo IS a better assault squad than the banshees, and yes also in point-for-point comparison, but thats another discussion).

In general i agree that the OP list is very good at battling necrons.

You still miss the point that that wave serpent is going to be stupid vulnerable for the first turn it gets close. In the variant list I was talking about, there are 11 destroyers. That's 33 shots at 36in. Of those shots 22 will hit, which is ~4 glance, ~7 pen on your rear armor. 7 penetrating hits, on average will score a little more than 2 destroy results. Remember if you pivot the vehicle disembarking units may not move other than to disembark that turn, thus for them to have range to assault you'll need to point the back towards me on the previous turn. That kind of fire will, on average, remove the wave serpent. After that, like I said it's just the matter of landing one particle whip on the ball.

Do Necron's that come in from Reserve still have to come in via the Monolith? That being said that'd be a turn where the Particle whip cannot be used, and would give the Eldar a chance to get in close.

Just a suggestion, but some war walkers with scatter lasers outflanking might be worth also looking into. I generally run with scatter walkers, and they rarely let me down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Overall you really should be taking advantage of the Eldar Mobility and Range. Getting particle whipped really shouldn't happen all that often.

No. You pick at deployment whether they come in from a monolith portal or table edge. That said if you picked monolith and there are none left when they come in from reserve they are immediately destroyed.

And the problem with avoiding the particle whip means the only thing that could fire without getting hit would be those 3 fire prisms. Everything else doesn't have the range.

A fully decked out jetseer council is something like ~650 points. A charge on the liths with witchblades gives you 30 (or 31?) str9 attacks, an average of about 1.66 (auto hits) or .83 (4+ hit) dead liths per turn, though chances are you'll have some spears thrown in there. A lucky multi-assault on the liths can pretty much give you the game in a turn. They can also tear through warriors. I'd much rather have that than:

Farseer -----------------------------------------150
SS, RoWit, Doom, Mindwar, Guide
2 x 10 Howling Banshees -----------------374
Exarch w/ Executioner & Acrobatic
2 x Wave Serpent --------------------------230
Shuricannon & Star Engines
TOTAL ---------------------------------------- 704

And if you drop Eldrad as well then you can even have two 6-7 man councils.

I also agree with ArcSoll on outflanking warwalkers with lasers. They've never let me down either.

The above is FAR AND AWAY a better option. I can think of absolutely nothing, short of dropping them before they can attack, that would prevent that unit from just obliterating every standard necron army i'm aware of.

Also the Jet Seers, if you wanted to ignore the mono's could get a hell of a cover save, with fortune, and just keep zipping around till the cron's come in, once they do just multi assault as much as possible going for the phase out.

In the past against a similar list I had my war walkers outflank, they came in the turn after the warriors. Warp Spiders took care of their squad as well. After 1 round of shooting they were pretty darn close to phase out. I just kept my Fire Prisms out of Whip range. He charged the 'Liths down the center, closer to the prisms, so that when everything did come in, I was able to stay out of range with them, and kill off the warriors/destoryers.

If you do the Jet Seers, Fly around, get cover saves, stay fortuned. Wait for the Warriors. You can also try to stay in CC with the destoryers. Gen

Damn, my mathhammer fails me again. I swear every time I try to give advice on army lists I make myself look like a fool.
My math only applies if the council hits the monoliths automatically. If it's on a 4+ then it's going to be cut down to .83 destroyed liths per turn. Not as impressive obviously, but I still see the council doing more damage than the banshee plan.

On the plus side the 4+ is about as good as the monolith is going to get since it's ponderous.

Assault him, break the unit, run it down. Problem solved. The question is what units to use to do this.

If he's not running Destroyers or Immortals, a Seer Council is a good choice. It can threaten Monoliths and won't need a transport to move it around. Next is probably Banshees over Scorpions, as you will need to fly right next to a Warrior unit and sit there. He'll probably need to teleport them Warriors away to get away from Banshees' fleet move.

Necrons have nothing that ignore the Harlie's cover saves, so they might work, but they are kind of slow. I wouldn't take Warwalkers unless you think you can position them very well. Destroyers, well, destroy AV 10, as do Particle Whips. Destroyers struggle against AV 12 though, and good positioning could let you present AV 12 to the Destroyers while still having your hatch close enough for a Banshee assault.

But if it's just Monoliths, Warriors, and Spyders, a Seer Council should put paid to all of that. But, remember, the answer to 'how do I beat Necrons' is usually melee combat plus some really fast melee or some shooting that can hurt T5 3+ to occupy the Destroyers.

It's agreed then. Jetseer council it is. Get converting!

Hahaha. Right now I have 0 jetbikes. I ordered some but they arent in yet. Once I get the jetbike models I might consider doing that.

Also I am not running my farseers with the banshees. I run them with the Dire Avengers.