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2011/08/25 04:27:43
Subject: Obi Wan Kenobi was a Sith by his own admission
The themes and politics of the whole prequel trilogy was incoherent, because George Lucas was writing stuff that sounded cool when he thought of it, and never bothering to think if it was really that good an idea, or any of it made sense as a whole.
It began when Lucas decided he wanted to make a comment on democracy and liberty, in which the central female hero of the prequels was a Queen, and the central female hero of the OT was Princess*, and it ended when he decided that "Only Sith deal in absolutes" - a sentence which is inherently contradictory, and drawing on philosophical issues that hadn't been mentioned in the previous six hours of prequel material.
*He decided to work around this in AotC by making Queens elected, and presumably Princesses similarly so. Which is just silly, more than anything else.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2011/08/25 05:16:22
Subject: Obi Wan Kenobi was a Sith by his own admission
In all honesty though, I think what a lot of people who see the prequels overlook certain details that most people experienced in EU have known since the mid 90's, mainly because Lucas forwent actually getting the point across coherently in favor of more light shows.
Obi-Wan in the scene is actively demonstrating the hypocrisy of the Jedi Order, which just spent 2 years using an army of slaves to fight a war against a body whose only crime was being tired of being under the Republic's hegemony (something that was not gotten across in the films at all). The whole idea of the "Chosen One" was that he balanced the force by destroying both the corrupted Jedi Order and the Sith. The Jedi were arrogant and corrupt (as evident by Windu's willingness to kill a elected political leader, regardless of his evilness). Yoda attempted to articulate this in the prequels but Lucas failed at storytelling so...
EDIT: Had Lucas not Grevious this point might have actually been gotten across. He hated the Jedi and joined the Separatists because the Jedi Order, on behalf of the Republic, intervened in a war on his planet for the other side, and basically crushed them. The Jedi had acted not as peacekeepers but as a political tool of the Republic, which was itself corrupt (enough that Sidious managed to seize power).
Now don't get me wrong. I hate the prequels. Lucas ruined them and utterly failed at getting any of the themes across and I'm not even sure he quite had a decent grasp of them in the first place. They weren't even his ideas. The EU developed most of them (EDIT: Back when the EU was actually worth paying attention to. Luke freak'n Skywalker is pushing 70 now and he's still the most important guy in the galaxy, really?).
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2011/08/25 07:08:41
Yes, I had this discussion with the wife the other night. The Jedi are terrible hypocrites.
They accuse the Sith of being the ones 'only to talk in absolutes', yet it is they who insist on dividing 'the Force' strictly into light and dark and denying any consideration of a middle path which Luke probably treads as he never gives in to the dark side but is also quite aggressive and uses powers like mind manipulation and force choke.
2011/08/25 13:09:51
Subject: Re:Obi Wan Kenobi was a Sith by his own admission
Obi Wan : Well doc whats the news?
Doctor : ooh well its not Good Master Jedi
Obi Wan : Really? Whys that?
Doctor : Well the tests show you have Gonorhea
Obi Wan : Are you sure about that Doc???
Doctor : Yes absolutely....
Obi Wan : SITH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2011/08/25 13:47:27
Subject: Obi Wan Kenobi was a Sith by his own admission
Dakka Bingo! By Ouze "You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry.
2011/08/25 14:42:56
Subject: Obi Wan Kenobi was a Sith by his own admission
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2011/08/25 15:01:32
Subject: Obi Wan Kenobi was a Sith by his own admission
Tempting, but I think I'll just Yoink my brothers copy next time I go over to his house.
Mostly because it allowed me to say the word "Yoink".
I have already yoinked my brothers copy...
I think some Electro is in order as i save/doom the galaxy... again.
Dakka Bingo! By Ouze "You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry.
2011/08/25 17:47:36
Subject: Obi Wan Kenobi was a Sith by his own admission
Howard A Treesong wrote:Yes, I had this discussion with the wife the other night. The Jedi are terrible hypocrites.
They accuse the Sith of being the ones 'only to talk in absolutes', yet it is they who insist on dividing 'the Force' strictly into light and dark and denying any consideration of a middle path which Luke probably treads as he never gives in to the dark side but is also quite aggressive and uses powers like mind manipulation and force choke.
I wouldn't say that. The New Jedi order still divides things into Light and Dark, but they are notably more liberal than the Old Order, allowing marriage for example. Luke's order and Luke himself are definitely 'Light' but they've got more gray mixed in there than the old Order did.
purplefood wrote:All this does is make me want to play Kotor...
Aww yea those were great games. Infact, Im buying them for the wife for xmas this year. I call that a double winner. She loved the games and so it would be a great present, AND I get to play them as well
2011/08/26 01:46:59
Subject: Obi Wan Kenobi was a Sith by his own admission
oh,you know. in a basement...cooking ponies into cupcakes....
Chowderhead wrote:Let's all agree that 1-3 don't exist. It's easier on our minds that way.
whats wrong with 1-3? i liked them.
Deathshead420 wrote:As your leader, I encourage you, from time to time and always in a respectful manner, to question my logic. If you're unconvinced a particular plan of action I've decided is the wisest, tell me so! But allow me to convince you. And I promise you, right here and now, no subject will ever be taboo … except, of course, the subject that was just under discussion. The price you pay for bringing up either my Chinese or American heritage as a negative is – I collect your f g head. [Holds up Tanaka's head] Just like this f r here. Now, if any of you sons of bitches got anything else to say, now's the f g time! [Pause] I didn't think so.
2011/08/26 01:48:59
Subject: Re:Obi Wan Kenobi was a Sith by his own admission
Actually, assuming you're under 20, I'm not sure if telling you to view that would construe an insult considering one of his opening lines.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/08/26 01:51:03
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
2011/08/26 03:29:57
Subject: Obi Wan Kenobi was a Sith by his own admission
LordofHats wrote:Obi-Wan in the scene is actively demonstrating the hypocrisy of the Jedi Order, which just spent 2 years using an army of slaves to fight a war against a body whose only crime was being tired of being under the Republic's hegemony (something that was not gotten across in the films at all).
Sort of. The trading federation was holding a small planet for ransom to reach better trade conditions, and when this didn't go as planned they militarily occupied the planet. They were certainly not an innocent party. The greater seperatist movement, as per the EU, consisted largely of tech and trading monopolies - corporate interests looking to gain greater freedom - hardly an automatically sympathetic group. This is demonstrated in the atrocities committed by Grevious.
It's all a pretty good starting point for the prequels. Another political faction in open war with the Republic and the Jedi getting dragged into the middle, to be inevitably compromised and destroyed in the conflict. You could do this with a group that was just as bad as the Republic, more noble but still compromised, or as moustache twirling villains. But the the problem was that the seperatists just weren't covered in the EU at all, they were a non-entity. It was a long time after I'd seen all three movies that I found out the seperatists were meant to be more than just the trading federation from the Phantom Menace.
The whole idea of the "Chosen One" was that he balanced the force by destroying both the corrupted Jedi Order and the Sith. The Jedi were arrogant and corrupt (as evident by Windu's willingness to kill a elected political leader, regardless of his evilness). Yoda attempted to articulate this in the prequels but Lucas failed at storytelling so...
In one of the director's commentaries, I think it's for AotC, Lucas mentions that the idea of the prophecy was that balance meant clarity - that the chosen one was going to reveal the dark from the light. The point wasn't to crush the Jedi order, but clear away the haze which prevented them from seeing the darkness of Palpatine. Which is actually kind of cool, but something Lucas completely failed to get across.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Howard A Treesong wrote:Yes, I had this discussion with the wife the other night. The Jedi are terrible hypocrites.
They accuse the Sith of being the ones 'only to talk in absolutes', yet it is they who insist on dividing 'the Force' strictly into light and dark and denying any consideration of a middle path which Luke probably treads as he never gives in to the dark side but is also quite aggressive and uses powers like mind manipulation and force choke.
The worse thing the EU ever did was come up with the silliness of grey Jedi.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/08/26 03:30:24
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2011/08/26 12:03:34
Subject: Obi Wan Kenobi was a Sith by his own admission
oh,you know. in a basement...cooking ponies into cupcakes....
ok,so that review was good. still think it was an ok movies. then again i like the transformers movies,and lots of people hate those too.
Deathshead420 wrote:As your leader, I encourage you, from time to time and always in a respectful manner, to question my logic. If you're unconvinced a particular plan of action I've decided is the wisest, tell me so! But allow me to convince you. And I promise you, right here and now, no subject will ever be taboo … except, of course, the subject that was just under discussion. The price you pay for bringing up either my Chinese or American heritage as a negative is – I collect your f g head. [Holds up Tanaka's head] Just like this f r here. Now, if any of you sons of bitches got anything else to say, now's the f g time! [Pause] I didn't think so.
2011/08/26 12:31:45
Subject: Obi Wan Kenobi was a Sith by his own admission
It is one thing to be entertained by the pre-quil trilogy. They weren't good though. As far as 1-3 go the Plinket reviews over at redlettermedia.com have it right. The stories were just too overly complicated to really sit down and enjoy. They just assume you know all this information that they never tell you so you just kinda sit there and watch people do things for no discernable reason. At least in 4-6 we know wtf is happening and why.
2011/08/26 23:44:19
Subject: Obi Wan Kenobi was a Sith by his own admission
oh,you know. in a basement...cooking ponies into cupcakes....
some things you would have to watch the cartoon to know.or read certain books.
Deathshead420 wrote:As your leader, I encourage you, from time to time and always in a respectful manner, to question my logic. If you're unconvinced a particular plan of action I've decided is the wisest, tell me so! But allow me to convince you. And I promise you, right here and now, no subject will ever be taboo … except, of course, the subject that was just under discussion. The price you pay for bringing up either my Chinese or American heritage as a negative is – I collect your f g head. [Holds up Tanaka's head] Just like this f r here. Now, if any of you sons of bitches got anything else to say, now's the f g time! [Pause] I didn't think so.
2011/08/27 00:08:54
Subject: Obi Wan Kenobi was a Sith by his own admission
oh,you know. in a basement...cooking ponies into cupcakes....
Ahtman wrote:
lord commissar klimino wrote:some things you would have to watch the cartoon to know.or read certain books.
That is bad storytelling, just like the Star Trek reboot where half the explanation is in graphic novels.
exactly why i said it. however for what it was meant to be,the original little cartoons were good. and explained stuff.
reboot? the new movie? i liked it,wasn't that confusing to me. and pretty much everything was explained at least a little.
Deathshead420 wrote:As your leader, I encourage you, from time to time and always in a respectful manner, to question my logic. If you're unconvinced a particular plan of action I've decided is the wisest, tell me so! But allow me to convince you. And I promise you, right here and now, no subject will ever be taboo … except, of course, the subject that was just under discussion. The price you pay for bringing up either my Chinese or American heritage as a negative is – I collect your f g head. [Holds up Tanaka's head] Just like this f r here. Now, if any of you sons of bitches got anything else to say, now's the f g time! [Pause] I didn't think so.
2011/08/27 00:15:21
Subject: Obi Wan Kenobi was a Sith by his own admission
oh,you know. in a basement...cooking ponies into cupcakes....
Ahtman wrote:The Genndy Tartakovsky shorts were better then the films.
yes they were i havent seen them all though do they explain why the clones armor changed?
Deathshead420 wrote:As your leader, I encourage you, from time to time and always in a respectful manner, to question my logic. If you're unconvinced a particular plan of action I've decided is the wisest, tell me so! But allow me to convince you. And I promise you, right here and now, no subject will ever be taboo … except, of course, the subject that was just under discussion. The price you pay for bringing up either my Chinese or American heritage as a negative is – I collect your f g head. [Holds up Tanaka's head] Just like this f r here. Now, if any of you sons of bitches got anything else to say, now's the f g time! [Pause] I didn't think so.
Grevious this point might have actually been gotten across. He hated the Jedi and joined the Separatists because the Jedi Order, on behalf of the Republic, intervened in a war on his planet for the other side, and basically crushed them. The Jedi had acted not as peacekeepers but as a political tool of the Republic, which was itself corrupt (enough that Sidious managed to seize power).
" -KingCracker
i havent seen them all though 
do they explain why the clones armor changed?