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Can you draw the line for Jaws so that the first thing it passes over is in close combat?

No. The first model hit is the target and you may not choose targets that are engaged in close combat.

No. Its a PSA, you have a target and nothing allows you to target close combat. You would need specific allowance to override the shooting rules.

You also need to roll to hit that first model.

Roll to hit??? It doesn't even have a weapon profile.

It's a PSA - read your codex. You roll to hit with PSAs, unless specifically told otherwise. Guess what Jaws DOESNT do

If I miss the first roll to hit does the entire power not work? Or is it only a roll to hit on the first model and every other model is automatically hit.

Bah, what was GW thinking with that FAQ.

The entire power misses - according to the shooting rules if you fail your "to hit" you miss and nothing happens.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The entire power misses - according to the shooting rules if you fail your "to hit" you miss and nothing happens.

This is contradicted by another PSA Murderous Hurricane, where FAQ specificially states that the power takes effect, even if it 'misses'.

Roll to hit is inconsequential for powers like Jaws, Thunderclap etc. Anything touched by the 'template' they use, is effected. Rolling to hit never enters the picture.

Thaylen wrote:If I miss the first roll to hit does the entire power not work? Or is it only a roll to hit on the first model and every other model is automatically hit.

Bah, what was GW thinking with that FAQ.

1) Roll to pass psychic test
2) Roll to hit
3) Enemy rolls an initiative test

How many times has this arguement been raised since the FAQ?

INAT contradicts the FAQ as JotWW is considered an "odd" templae attack.

Missing the first model would not mean that all others would miss... if you understand the effect, the ground opens up beneath them and they are removed if they fail their I test to evade.

Once again... rolling to hit after passing a Psy Test then having the models roll I is too many hoops...

Except its how the rules work. INAT is also NOT a source of rules, read the Tenets please.

RaW Nos is 100% accurate, as odd as it may be in this specific case

I don't know why people have such a hard time with that too. Sure, a giant chasm is opening up. If you miss, the chasm didn't open where you wanted it to, and didn't end up swallowing anyone. Is that really so outlandish that people can't fathom it? If I shoot a gun and it misses, why do you not argue that it might hit someone else?

nosferatu1001 wrote:No. Its a PSA, you have a target and nothing allows you to target close combat. You would need specific allowance to override the shooting rules.

You also need to roll to hit that first model.

One questions that follows: after you selected a valid target (one that is an enemy unit, not locked in CC, in LOS), is it possible for the line to continue on, passing through other units that are stuck in CC? Or would you have to draw the line in such a way as to avoid any and all models in CC?

Oh lord. This debate again.

Let's not make this debate about whether JoTWW requires a roll-to-hit. We've been down that road before. Just ask the TO of your local FLGS how it should be played, or if you are among friends, come to an agreement amongst yourselves.

For the CC question; once a valid target has been selected, then if the line happens to pass through a model or two in CC, those models are affected - whether they are enemy models or friendly models. There is no provision in the power that it only affects enemies, or models not in CC, or stops for any reason other than the board edge. It's essentially the same as a blast template that scattered into combat.

Just for the giggles of this silly argument....again.....you do not have to roll to hit. Talk to your opponent before the game and work out how you want to play it so you do not have to have this silly argument in the game. You cannot target model.....ever.....in close combat.

Bikeninja wrote:Just for the giggles of this silly argument....again.....you do not have to roll to hit. Talk to your opponent before the game and work out how you want to play it so you do not have to have this silly argument in the game. You cannot target model.....ever.....in close combat.

Your last statement is false. The Eldar heavy weapon Vibro Cannons specifically allow you to fire into close combat, (and without LOS,) courtesy of the Eldar FAQ I believe. Boon of Mutation, from the Chaos Daemons codex, is a ranged weapon which may be used in close combat, and may also target a model in close combat.

There are exceptions to the rules. These exceptions are usually explicitly spelled out.

Can we just kill this discussion right now? The question was in regards to targeting units in close combat, and it has already been ruled that it cannot. End of discussion.

Forgot about the Vibro Cannon. Don't play Eldar so it slipped my mind. Thanks

As for JoTWW, First model has to be unengaged (not in HTH). From then on any model hit whether in CC or not has to make the Int. Test. That is how we play it. Our game club has several members (me included) that have been playing since Rogue Trader. We have a pretty good feel for RAW and RAI (I think anyway).

Just remember, talk to your opponent or TO first, make your case before the first dice is rolled. It will make your life alot easier.

Can't target into close combat and having read both sides of this argument in several threads, no to-hit roll is needed.

P1. PSA needs to roll to hit unless explicitly excused.

P2. JotWW is a PSA.

P3. JotWW is not explicitly excused from rolling to hit.


C1. JotWW needs to roll to hit.

Steelmage99 wrote:P1. PSA needs to roll to hit unless explicitly excused.

P2. JotWW is a PSA.

P3. JotWW is not explicitly excused from rolling to hit.


C1. JotWW needs to roll to hit.

This has been discussed ad-nauseum in previous threads. Please don't turn this thread into another pointless argument which will ultimately boil down to "ask your TO". It is not even the point of the thread.

The discussion have moved on to a different subject.

The original point of the thread has been more than adequately answered.

Steelmage99 wrote:P1. PSA needs to roll to hit unless explicitly excused.

P2. JotWW is a PSA.

P3. JotWW is not explicitly excused from rolling to hit.


C1. JotWW needs to roll to hit.

Keep chasing that car Rover, I am sure you will know what to do with it once you have caught it.

OP has had his question answered, the other topic can be searched for both sides of the argument.

The side which follows rules and the side which doesnt?

I am genuinely curious, Tyr.

I have presented three premises and a conclusion that seems logical.

Is it the third premise that we disagree on?

Steelmage99 wrote:I am genuinely curious, Tyr.

I have presented three premises and a conclusion that seems logical.

Is it the third premise that we disagree on?

Really?

Use the search function, read the previous threads about JoTWW. Every reason conceivable as to why it does or does not require a roll to hit has been brought up, debated, contested, and ignored for ones own convenience. We really don't need to reopen this pointless argument and keep repeating history, do we?

Maybe, maybe not.

As long as some posters present the opinion that JotWW does not need to roll to hit, I WILL respond in kind.

CiaranAnnrach wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:I am genuinely curious, Tyr.

I have presented three premises and a conclusion that seems logical.

Is it the third premise that we disagree on?

Really?

Use the search function, read the previous threads about JoTWW. Every reason conceivable as to why it does or does not require a roll to hit has been brought up, debated, contested, and ignored for ones own convenience. We really don't need to reopen this pointless argument and keep repeating history, do we?

I agree with Ciaran.

My opinions pretty much match those that have been expressed against needing a to hit roll with the exception to those claiming the line is a template.

As to your supposedly logical conclusion, it is based on the fallacy that JotWW hits. The rule entry is quite clear in that anything the line touches must take an initiative test, not anything the line hits. Based on that specific wording alone, JottWW clearly uses something different then the required rolling to hit mechanic which allows it to fall under the codex exception rule listed on page 50.

If you choose to equate touching to hitting, then you are just choosing to change the rules as written to fit your argument. That would be an unwise stance to take.

Ok, better question, can I Target my own unit? Say I want to snipe into a combat with ork nobs and there are no enemies nearby, could I use a grey hunter as an aiming point to shoot the nobs?

A no answer would not surprise me but can't hurt to ask.