Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I am fairly new to this section of the forums so forgive me if this subject has already been beaten to death.

Some passages in Horus Rising seem to indicate that Marines are actually biologically bread to be unable to feel fear (though they can still feel shock or uncertainty). Even so, they seem very emotional, desiring revenge, caring for comrades, enjoying humor, and so on. So, Are space Marines actually brave, or does real bravery require real fear?

(For a great answer to the question 'what is courage?' read Gates of Fire by Stephen Pressfield. Though it is still philosophically debateable I absolutely love his description of courage."

Good question. My understanding is that they are in fact bred to not feel fear. That is one of the main reasons why a number of chapters respect guardsmen, who do feel fear yet fight all the same enemies space marines do.

Is a space marine brave/courageous though? I'm going to go with no, seeing as you'd have to feel fear to overcome it.

As far as i understand, from reading a couple of the books, a few books state that they do feel fear, but they know how to work with it, and won't let it overpower them

Plus you have to keep in mind it's all in the fluff, they do their darn best to make the SM seem as amazing as possible

and with the question, does bravery require fear? I wouldn't know.... philosphy was my worst course

They are still capable of feeling the emotion we know as fear. Although some chapters refuse to admit it, and shun, ostracize, or even excommunicate members who admit to feeling fear. They are, however, way better equipped to deal with things that make them afraid, and are capable of fighting past that fear.

Jimsolo wrote:They are still capable of feeling the emotion we know as fear. Although some chapters refuse to admit it, and shun, ostracize, or even excommunicate members who admit to feeling fear. They are, however, way better equipped to deal with things that make them afraid, and are capable of fighting past that fear.

Awesome explanation!

That was where my feeble attempt was trying to go

Bravery is the knowledge that you are afraid, and fo not act on it.

So yeah, SM are brave.

Fear is motivated by the prospect of discomfort, either emotional, mental, or physical. Since Marines are more than willing to give their life for the Emperor, I am sure they don't experience fear as we think of it. Something may scare them, but they face it. To me, that is the meaning of "And they shall know no fear."

I raised this one a bit back, and got the standard 'Marines don't feel fear ! Don't you read the fluff/codexes ??? ' answers

Marines are stated in several books as being capable of being afraid, unnerved, freaked out etc. They act in spite of this, with a little help from pychoconditioning, which makes them brave (though arguably less so that lesser warriors that still engage the same foe despite their fear.

The Marines are touted as being brave and courageous all the time, which is impossible without a fear response to overcome, and in several series (Soul Drinkers is the current one i'm reading, and it makes several statements of marines being in fear/horrified etc) they are explicit about it.

The Marines, as a whole, will never admit to feeling fear, calling it doubts, misgivings etc, but they DO feel it.

The chant 'And they shall no no fear' is a rallying cry, to draw inspiration from, rather than a statement of psychological fact

*edit for lusy numb-fingered typing..*

To my knowlege, they are bred not to feel fear, meaning that technically they are not brave.

Ascalam wrote:I raised this one a bit back, and got the standard 'Marines don't feel fear ! Don't you read the fluff/codexes ??? ' answers

Marines are stated in several books as being capable of being afraid, unnerved, freaked out etc. They act in spite of this, with a little help from pychoconditioning, which makes them brave (though arguably less so that lesser warriors that still engage the same foe despite their fear.

The Marines are touted as being brave and courageous all the time, which is impossible without a fear response to overcome, and in several series (Soul Drinkers is the current one i'm reading, and it makes several statements of marines being in fear/horrified etc) they are explicit about it.

The Marines, as a whole, will never admit to feeling fear, calling it doubts, misgivings etc, but they DO feel it.

The chant 'And they shall no no fear' is a rallying cry, to draw inspiration from, rather than a statement of psychological fact

*edit for lusy numb-fingered typing..*

I think Loken's perspective in the HH books sums these ideas up perfectly.

I think the other posters have covered whats in the fluff pretty well. Marines are not literally bred/altered to not feel fear, but I just want to add my own personal interpretation (that's probably way too in-depth haha).

It always seemed to me that Marines may have been selected as candidates, then conditioned through training, such that their "fight or flight" response was more of a "fight" response. There are a few ways this is done.

First, I think they are capable of the same biological response to external threats as a normal humans, although it probably takes more severe circumstances to provoke that response simply due to their repeated exposure to less severe events. Gunfire, explosions, great heights, confined spaces, all manner of alien creatures, extreme pain, etc, are all things a marine would face so often during their training as to reduce their psychological impact simply through exposure therapy. These situations would get their heart(s) pumping for sure, but would only be provoking a "fight" response because the urge to flee or avoid a familiar threat would be greatly reduced.

Second, the knowledge that you will fight until you die no matter what probably gives you a very different outlook on the prospect of injury or death. Constant repetition of this amounts to brainwashing really, that fighting to the death is your sole purpose in life. Just look at Japanese culture circa WWII to understand how your outlook on the value of your life, and the shame of anything other than honorable death, can impact your thoughts on self-preservation, then multiply it by 100 because marines literally have no prospect of a future life outside their chapter and their service.

Third, marines routinely fight while under the influence of some kind of combat stimulants. Think something along the lines of methamphetamines, only presumably less crude. Meth-heads picking fights with armed cops is not bravery, it's a false sense of invincibility. I'm sure such things go a long way toward helping marines face the worst threats without having to suppress any self-preservation instinct.

Last, I think people too often discount the recruitment process that goes on when making new marines. They aren't forcing 10,000 kids to fight just to see who's strongest and bravest. They're intentionally selecting for remorseless psycopaths who kill without remorse and might already be psychologically incapable of feeling normal fear at age 12. Based on the descriptions of this process for the average chapter, I doubt their recruits come in much different from the Night Lords who were inducted from Nostramo - the main difference is the way they were trained and deployed afterwards.

So in summary, no, I don't think marines are bred or altered in any way that literally prevents them from feeling fear. They don't have some "fear gene" or "fear organ" removed. All the same, they aren't friendly but aloof heroes who bravely overcome the most horrifying things in the galaxy like they seem to be so often in the Black Library. If you look at Space Marines through a hard-sci-fi lens, they're really emotionally stunted, brainwashed, drug-addled psycopaths with very poor social skills and a serious death wish. Anything that scares or unnerves a marine has to be pretty damn scary, and I doubt it really takes much in the way of bravery on their part to overcome that.

They do feel fear, there are many instances in the Heresy series at least where we see this. Fear is not bred out, Space Marines are an Intelligent biological organism. They would, in fact, have a heightened sense of self-preservation.

What separates the SM's from other humans is their intense mental conditioning coupled with a controlled adrenal system.

SM's are simply human at their core, albeit highly modified, trained, and controlled humans. Which is why if they go 'wrong' they really go wrong.

Edit: Bred out, not Bread out... sheesh.

Never heard about Marine fleeing or being afraid to face an enemy...
In fact, I see them doing all kind of crazy stuff. ( Lord Kaldor Draigo, Cato Sicarius, Uriel Ventris, Mephiston, Azrael, Dante... )

Wondered when you'd show up

Have you read the Soul Drinkers series? There are numerous references to Marines being afraid throughout, though usually in extreme circumstances.

They tend to buckle on their big-boy boots and go fight anyway, but it does acknowledge that they are afraid at times.

Thank you
Marines fear only failure, like Grey Knights fear only fall to Chaos.
And Soul Drinkers are stupid series ( lose chapter because of one relic? And that chapter is lead by mutant, psyker Librarian? ).

No they fear.. as in be afraid, also



It's not the only series that highlights this, but it is the one i'm currently reading.. You've done that for me, forcing me to read BL

Actually a chapter getting in a major funk over a relic from their primarch sounds EXACTLY like space marines..

Imagine, for example,that the ADMECH wanted to take some of Russ's stuff and offsod, or Guillimans, without explanation, and by force, because they felt they had more right to them

It wouldn't end well...

Mechanicus trying to take relics from any Space Marine chapter? HERESY!!! They would pass like Imperial Church on Fenris...
But you also must count them to be VERY brave, just remember Ultramarines 1'st company against Behemoth. Surrounded on all sides by MILLIONS of Tyranids, yet they fight and all die in the end. Then there's a planet where that Black Tempalr Chaplain hold a line against thousands of Orks, then there is time were Ultramarines hold the line against endless hordes of Necrons at Damnos to allow Civilians to flee, then there are Grey Knights who fight hell itself...
Like I said, they only fear to die their duty unfinished. Ad that from Soul Drinkers were more surprise then fear.

Or not..

I do consider them to be very brave. To be brave you need first to be able to feel fear.

Your assertion that the only thing they fear is to die with their duty unfinished is incorrect though They may say that to each other, and have it on their PR handouts, but there are occasions in which they are actually afraid

If they were suprised the term used would be something like shocked, startled, alarmed.. The author knows these terms and uses them elsewhere in the series.

When he describes the Marines as being afraid he means afraid[u]. He doesn't use the term often, and from the context when it IS used it is pretty clear that it means that they are afraid.

Ascalam wrote:Or not..

I do consider them to be very brave. To be brave you need first to be able to feel fear.

Your assertion that the only thing they fear is to die with their duty unfinished is incorrect though They may say that to each other, and have it on their PR handouts, but there are occasions in which they are actually afraid

If they were suprised the term used would be something like shocked, startled, alarmed.. The author knows these terms and uses them elsewhere in the series.

When he describes the Marines as being afraid he means afraid[u]. He doesn't use the term often, and from the context when it IS used it is pretty clear that it means that they are afraid.

This is all very true. But still we have that legendary sentence: "They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear." Everybody fear something, like Marines fear failure and to fall to corruption, they fear their brother die or they fear what would happened to the population they are fighting to protect. Every Human fear the unknown, that's in our geens and that is not possible to reverse. But Space Marine don't fear battle and that is most important. They will go even to the Eye of Terror or face million strong foe without doubt.

And I thin thatk OP means do Space Marines fear at all? And my answer would be yes and no. They fear the unknown ( like all Humans ) and they fear for their brothers and comrades ( for the population in general ). But I have never heard about a Marine fleeing from battle or being afraid to face someone. In battle they really don't know fear. Out of the battle, they only fear what would happened to the Imperium.

Brother Coa wrote:

And I thin thatk OP means do Space Marines fear at all? And my answer would be yes and no. They fear the unknown ( like all Humans ) and they fear for their brothers and comrades ( for the population in general ). But I have never heard about a Marine fleeing from battle or being afraid to face someone. In battle they really don't know fear. Out of the battle, they only fear what would happened to the Imperium.

That is pretty much what I was asking and it seems clear from other stories I haven't read (Soul Drinkers came up a lot) that they do, to some degree. I feel like the fluff has changed a lot from what I remember in my youth, reading through the 2nd edition rulebook. The marines in the Horus Heresy Novels and Ultramarines books are so much more emotional, more 'human' if you will than the impression I had of them back when I was 12.

So, taking a dictionary definition of fear it's pretty clear that Space Marines do feel fear

"a distressing emotion aroused by impending danger, evil, pain, etc., whether the threat is real or imagined; the feeling or condition of being afraid. Synonyms: foreboding, apprehension, consternation, dismay, dread, terror, fright, panic, horror, trepidation, qualm."

So they obviously have concern for their comrades, worry about what's up ahead (Loken seems quite concerned for the Warmaster's safety at the point I've read to in False Gods) but how much 'fear' does a Marine feel for himself personally? I am thinking there is some stuff in the Soul Drinkers novels that will be mentioned. I think there is a difference between "I am afraid you might get hurt and I'm uncertain about what is out there, but it doesn't bother me to throw myself in front certain death." and "Holy crap, I'm gonna die and want to run away!" even though both have examples that we would call fear.

Of course they fear certain things, like what would happen to the Imperium if they fail?
And they always fear the unknown ( remember the first time they see Tyranids? ).
But in battle - they know no fear, no matter the enemy.

Conflicting sources. The Night Lords series goes on a lot about how Astartes should not feel fear, and must be taught to feel it. Hence why Xarl is disgusted by Cyrion and the Exalted.

Brother Coa wrote:Of course they fear certain things, like what would happen to the Imperium if they fail?
And they always fear the unknown ( remember the first time they see Tyranids? ).
But in battle - they know no fear, no matter the enemy.

So maybe what makes them 'brave' isn't what they do in battle, but they fact that they keep high morale and remain loyal regardless of what they know (or don't). Then you could argue that the traitor legions and chapters lost their faith when they succumbed to fear.

Which they couldn't have done, if they were immune to fear in the first place. They were Astartes too, after all..


@Brother Coa : Just because the Emperor said it doesn't make him right The guy was a humongous donkeycave at times, and has been wrong before

If i have to accept that Sarpedon can make Necrons drop rivets from fear, because it's in the fluff, then you have to accept that Marines can be scared (and in a warzone too, not just over coffee and scones while discussing the Imperium's future) because it's in the fluff.

Or we can just agree that the fluff is such a messed up pile of contradictions that we may as well not argue about the minutae

Marines are very good at supressing fear, and very well trained, which allows them to act in battle as if the fear is in the background. It doesn't stop them from feeling fear, but it does allow them to shunt it aside.

An example for you of Marines being afraid to attack something. Try to assault a Ctan, then fail your Ld roll.

Ascalam wrote:
@Brother Coa : Just because the Emperor said it doesn't make him right The guy was a humongous donkeycave at times, and has been wrong before

Battle for Macragge - did any of the Terminators run for their lives?
Or did you ever heard about Space Marine running like a coward in front of an enemy?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ascalam wrote:
An example for you of Marines being afraid to attack something. Try to assault a Ctan, then fail your Ld roll.

He is asking this fluff wise not table wise...

Brother Coa wrote:

Ascalam wrote:
@Brother Coa : Just because the Emperor said it doesn't make him right The guy was a humongous donkeycave at times, and has been wrong before

Battle for Macragge - did any of the Terminators run for their lives?
Or did you ever heard about Space Marine running like a coward in front of an enemy?


What the Hades does the Battle for Macragge have with the Big E not always being right? You don't have to be running for your life to feel fear, which is adistinction i think you simply do not get. Feeling fear does not always equate running screaming for your lives. It means that you are afraid. Strawmanning with a battle where the defenders had nowhere to run to and the provisio that you have to run screaming to be afraid is a bit of a cheap tactic, no?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ascalam wrote:
An example for you of Marines being afraid to attack something. Try to assault a Ctan, then fail your Ld roll.

He is asking this fluff wise not table wise...

Actually he said no such thing I'll dig up a few fluff examples of scared marines if you like though Note that being afraid to attack/apprehensive of attacking something is not the same as running from it

What he asked is, are Marines brave. Are they capable of bravery. Before you showed up in-thread the general consensus was that Space Marines are capable of bravery, as they can feel fear, and then contain it in order to act. Being able to act, conquering or supressing your fear to do so, is the definition of bravery. Space marines are very brave. If they are incapable of fear of the enemy, they aren't the least bit brave for facing him in a heroic and dauntless fashion



What the Hades does the Battle for Macragge have with the Big E not always being right? You don't have to be running for your life to feel fear, which is a distinction i think you simply do not get .

Feeling fear does not always equate running screaming for your lives. It means that you are afraid. Strawmanning with a battle where the defenders had nowhere to run to and the provisio that you have to run screaming to be afraid is a bit of a cheap tactic, no? I imagine that the Terminators you mention had something of an 'Oh GAK! There's MILLIONS of them.. loop in the back of their heads, but their conditioning and natural bravery kept is in the background, like it is supposed to.

Actually, imo, what’s in the rules should be considered just as much as ‘official fluff’. I mean, the game is the actual basis that all the narratives are based around. If the correct way to interpret Marines failing a leadership test to charge something scary is because they are afraid, that clinches it for me. That said, that rule could easily be interpreted differently, i.e. The Marines failed to charge, not out of fear, but because such an order was a waste of the valuable resource of their lives and instead they pulled out there Codex Astartes to look for more reasonable options.

I think what I personally was most hung up on was the several time Garviel Loken states that marines were genetically incapable of fear. I get the idea now that that statement is true like the statement “Darth Vader killed Anikin Skywalker” is true. It’s ‘true’ in some sort of philosophical sense but not literally.

Does "And They Shall Know No Fear" mean anything to you? I also recall in the Helsreach book, it mentioned one of the Templars being "indoctrinated so that he could never feel fear from the enemy"

Not really.

It's a rallying cry, not a statement of literal fact

In the case of the Templars they actually ARE fearless.. The whole army has the Fearless USR. Regular marines don't

Ascalam wrote:Not really.

It's a rallying cry, not a statement of literal fact

In the case of the Templars they actually ARE fearless.. The whole army has the Fearless USR. Regular marines don't

Didn't know that; I kind of assumed their indoctrination was pretty close to vanilla marines.