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It states the vehicle cannot shoot on a turn it rams, can the squad inside it shoot if the ram was under 6"?

Nothing prevents them from doing so.

Nothing prevents the unit inside from shooting, as long as the vehicle has not moved over 6"

No, they cannot
Ramming Rules, p.69: ". . . the tank must always move at the highest speed it is capable of."
Fire Points, p.66: " . . . may not fire at all if the vehicle moved at cruising speed this turn."

Highest speed a tank is capable of is cruising speed. Just because it does not achieve this speed does not mean you are not moving at it. The Ramming Rules reference moving at cruising speed as the reason you are unable to fire your vehicle's weapons. If you are moving at cruising, models embarked can't fire either.

Edit: If it worked as you described it, the tank would still be able to fire it's guns, as it then would not be moving at cruising speed. The ramming rules prevent this by automatically placing you at cruising speed.

Irdiumstern wrote:No, they cannot
Ramming Rules, p.69: ". . . the tank must always move at the highest speed it is capable of."
Fire Points, p.66: " . . . may not fire at all if the vehicle moved at cruising speed this turn."

Highest speed a tank is capable of is cruising speed. Just because it does not achieve this speed does not mean you are not moving at it. The Ramming Rules reference moving at cruising speed as the reason you are unable to fire your vehicle's weapons. If you are moving at cruising, models embarked can't fire either.

Right but I think the point is that if it gets stopped (unable to destroy the rammed vehicle) then it only went 5" which was its maximum speed. I think they could still shoot as long as they don't go over 6".

In this hypothetical case, let's say I did go the maximum I could, which was into an enemy vehicle that was 5" away.

Akroma06 wrote:

Irdiumstern wrote:No, they cannot
Ramming Rules, p.69: ". . . the tank must always move at the highest speed it is capable of."
Fire Points, p.66: " . . . may not fire at all if the vehicle moved at cruising speed this turn."

Highest speed a tank is capable of is cruising speed. Just because it does not achieve this speed does not mean you are not moving at it. The Ramming Rules reference moving at cruising speed as the reason you are unable to fire your vehicle's weapons. If you are moving at cruising, models embarked can't fire either.

Right but I think the point is that if it gets stopped (unable to destroy the rammed vehicle) then it only went 5" which was its maximum speed. I think they could still shoot as long as they don't go over 6".

But the point is you declared your ramming so your vehicle is considered to be moving at cruising speed, even if you immoblize yourself an inch into that ram attempt.

I don't see it say 'you are considered to have moved at cruising speed' anywhere on that page, just that you must move at the highest speed it is capable of (5").

The vehicle can't shoot because it says in the Ram rules that it cannot.

Rythem wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:

Irdiumstern wrote:No, they cannot
Ramming Rules, p.69: ". . . the tank must always move at the highest speed it is capable of."
Fire Points, p.66: " . . . may not fire at all if the vehicle moved at cruising speed this turn."

Highest speed a tank is capable of is cruising speed. Just because it does not achieve this speed does not mean you are not moving at it. The Ramming Rules reference moving at cruising speed as the reason you are unable to fire your vehicle's weapons. If you are moving at cruising, models embarked can't fire either.

Right but I think the point is that if it gets stopped (unable to destroy the rammed vehicle) then it only went 5" which was its maximum speed. I think they could still shoot as long as they don't go over 6".

But the point is you declared your ramming so your vehicle is considered to be moving at cruising speed, even if you immoblize yourself an inch into that ram attempt.

Movement is based on just that though; movement. If you only move 5" due to the ram not exploding the vehicle, you'll stop and have move 5". Also if you immobilize yourself 1" you hadnt moved at Cruising speed either

I agree with Irdiumsterm. You are moving at a max speed which is cruising speed, or flat-out for fast. 5" is not a speed, it's a distance.

Kaliber wrote:I agree with Irdiumsterm. You are moving at a max speed which is cruising speed, or flat-out for fast. 5" is not a speed, it's a distance.

Isn't speed based on the distance that you travelled?

Akroma06 wrote:

Kaliber wrote:I agree with Irdiumsterm. You are moving at a max speed which is cruising speed, or flat-out for fast. 5" is not a speed, it's a distance.

Isn't speed based on the distance that you travelled?

Well, riddle this one. A unit is embarked in a skimmer in terrain. You declare that it is moving flat out but immobilize the transport trying to leave terrain. Is the unit inside destroyed? Transport never actually moved but was attempting to move flat out.

That's like declaring a tank shock with an immobilized skimmer. Beings its already immobilized it won't be destroyed but would get a 4+ save if it was a fast skimmer.

If you only move 5" you didnt move cruising speed, nor flat out.

Read the first two sentences of the ramming rules. The vehicle being unable to shoot is dependent on it moving at cruising speed in the second sentence. It is clarifying the rules text from another page, not saying that the vehicle can't shoot due to the ram attempt.

From this, it follows that the movement distance you declare for the vehicle is what counts for all subsequent questions, even if it is less than the distance traveled.

It's the same as rolling for difficult terrain. Suppose you roll 2 (or 3, with Move through cover) 1s. Even if you don't move your models, they are considered to have moved for the purposes of firing. Additionally, the speed tells you the maximum number of inches you may move. Ramming uses cruising speed (generally), which means you may move up to 12" but are not required to move that far.

Iridium - thaty is totally wrong. The restriction on ramming is because of the ram, not because of how far it went.

For example a superheavy tank, max speed 6", canram andno matter what the unit inide can shoot.

Your "speed" is entirely based on how far you have moved, not the other way round. If you move 5" a unit inside can shoot.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Iridium - thaty is totally wrong. The restriction on ramming is because of the ram, not because of how far it went.

For example a superheavy tank, max speed 6", canram andno matter what the unit inide can shoot.

Your "speed" is entirely based on how far you have moved, not the other way round. If you move 5" a unit inside can shoot.

How about, for once, you actually look at the rulebook before you chime in? Ramming, Pg. 69, bottom of page, first and second sentence under ramming. A superheavy vehicle follows different rules entirely, is not part of the core rules, and, if I'm not mistaken, specifically states that units inside may always fire.
Top speed means Top speed, not that you can meander forward until something gets in your way. Just because something did in fact stop you does not mean you are suddenly not putting all your effort into driving.

If it was the way you described, a player could attempt to move at Cruising speed, and if reaching a wood 5 inches into movement and getting immobilized, be able to still fire normally.

SH - Youre mistaken.

Already read the rules, and discussed this previously, oddly enough.

The rule simply states that concentrating on driving at high speeds means the vehicle is unable to fire. Thats it. Not "because you have to move at least cruising speed...", nothing like that at all.

You have to move as fast as possible, in this case "as far as possible" is 5", meaning you are moving cruising speed.

It does work the way i described. Your method, not using movement to determine speed band, has no basis in the rules.

Irdiumstern wrote:If it was the way you described, a player could attempt to move at Cruising speed, and if reaching a wood 5 inches into movement and getting immobilized, be able to still fire normally.

That is exactly how it would work.

You never have to declare what speed you are moving at. The speed you are moving at is determined by how far the vehicle actually moves. Intent has nothing to do with it.

So they put the "This means" at the beginning of the second sentence for the fun of it, instead of clarifying that the vehicle has to move at cruising speed? I rather doubt it.

I mean, I'd love being able to do short range rams with my battlewagons and still pour out the whole mess of firepower inside. It's just that the rules tell you the vehicle moves at max speed, which means your peons aren't shooting.

Grakmar is right you never have to say how fast you are moving. It is determined by the distance that you travel. If you have to use 7" to ram then you went cruising speed, and that is your max. If you only go 5" however you went combat speed and that is your max speed.
@ don mondo As for the skimmer comparison with guys inside. It has little bearing on this discussion but I'll answer it anyway. They wouldn't die nor would they get a cover due to moving flat out. You havne't gone that far yet. So if I rolled a 1 I'm immobilised right there. Now if I ended a flat out move in terrain and rolled a 1 both the transport and squad are dead.


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Irdiumstern wrote:So they put the "This means" at the beginning of the second sentence for the fun of it, instead of clarifying that the vehicle has to move at cruising speed? I rather doubt it.

I mean, I'd love being able to do short range rams with my battlewagons and still pour out the whole mess of firepower inside. It's just that the rules tell you the vehicle moves at max speed, which means your peons aren't shooting.

No its there to tell you that if you do go through the enemy vehicle that you have to keep going. That you don't declare distance as with a tank shock or just decide to stop once you are done rolling through the enemy.

Pg 69, second paragraph:
Ramming is a special type of tank shock move and is executed the same way, except that the tank must always move at the highest speed it is capable of. (emphasis mine). If the highest speed capable is cruising, then you move at cruising speed, even if you only move 3".

Happyjew wrote:Pg 69, second paragraph:
Ramming is a special type of tank shock move and is executed the same way, except that the tank must always move at the highest speed it is capable of. If the highest speed capable is cruising, then you move at cruising speed, even if you only move 3".

It is capable of. Emphasis mine. If you can only go 5" then you are only capable of going combat speed.

Happyjew wrote: If the highest speed capable is cruising, then you move at cruising speed, even if you only move 3".

But if you only move 3", you didn't move at cruising speed.

Speed is entirely dependent on the distance the vehicle actually travels. The vehicle will attempt to move as far as it can, but if something stops it then it only moved as far as it moved.


I wouldn't have a problem with a house rule forbidding units inside from shooting that turn, but I'm not seeing anything in the normal rules that forbids it.

Happyjew wrote:Pg 69, second paragraph:
Ramming is a special type of tank shock move and is executed the same way, except that the tank must always move at the highest speed it is capable of. (emphasis mine). If the highest speed capable is cruising, then you move at cruising speed, even if you only move 3".

So if my tank is only capable of going 3" due to an enemy vehicle that didn't explode when I rammed it, Guess I only moved combat speed as I cannot go further beings the enemy vehicle didn't explode

I understand the original question of weather or not the unit inside a DECLARED ramming vehicle gets to shoot out of the vehicle seems hinged on deciding if you take into account the vehicle's max speed or the distance it actually traveled. So the scenario is that if the vehicle moves more than 6" that the unit inside is too disrupted by the SPEED of the ride to effectively shoot out of the vehicle. Note that even on a smooth road, Cruising Speed would still prevent the unit from firing. You don't get the extra 6" added to Combat Speed.

Now imagine a DECLARED ramming vehicle moving with such speed (not distance) to prevent the unit inside from firing and it just happens to suddenly stop short because of an impact (which I would imagine to be rather more disruptive to unit inside than just moving at Cruising Speed).

Also, in the spirit of the rules that govern the effect of the INTENTION of transport vehicle movement on units, I am reminded of pg 70, second column, paragraph 9, FAST VEHICLES: Fast Transport Vehicles: "Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in the movement phase." The phrase in parenthesis refers to the INTENTION of the vehicle to move Flat Out means it does not stop or slow down enough to take on or let go troops, regardless of the distance it actually moves. I also refer to the etiquette of declaring Turbo-boosts and Flat Out BEFORE measuring these distances still effects the shooting abilities of these models regardless of how far they actually moved.

So I say no, they cannot fire from a DECLARED ramming vehicle whose max speed is greater than Combat Speed.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:
Also, in the spirit of the rules that govern the effect of the INTENTION of transport vehicle movement on units, I am reminded of pg 70, second column, paragraph 9, FAST VEHICLES: Fast Transport Vehicles: "Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in the movement phase." The phrase in parenthesis refers to the INTENTION of the vehicle to move Flat Out means it does not stop or slow down enough to take on or let go troops, regardless of the distance it actually moves.
.

There is a major diference here though;

you may not embark/disembark if you're going to move flat out. (intent of moving flat out)
and
move at the highest speed possible ( if I ram something 5" away I'll probably stop) I'm intending on moving at combat speed unless I somehow manage to blow it up


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and just to cross reference,
"models may not fire at all if the vehicle moved at cruising speed that turn" 66 BGB

Cruising speed as defined by RAW
"more than 6" and up to 12"" 57 BGB

Here's my understanding.

Ramming is a special type of tank shock. With a tank shock, you simply declare how far you'll be going, i.e. "I will charge my Battlewagon 1" forward in the hope to dislodge your marines!" With a Ram, you must move at the highest speed possible, rather than choosing how fast you want to go. However, the last paragraph for Tank Shock on p.68 states that if a tank moves slowly enough (Combat speed) it may fire as normal. Since there's nothing stating that the vehicles immediately count as having moved at cruising speed in order to ram, the only way to determine the actual speed is by the distance traveled. Therefore if the vehicle moved less than 6" it should follow that normal combat speed rules apply for the vehicles and passengers alike.

@ James Dean: Yes, there are differences. I was only referencing Flat Out for the spirit of the rules, in which your intentions are taken into account.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:move at the highest speed possible ( if I ram something 5" away I'll probably stop) I'm intending on moving at combat speed unless I somehow manage to blow it up

You cannot INTEND on moving at Combat Speed if you make a Ramming attack.

Pg 68, col 1, par 6, line 1, TANKS: Tank Shock!: "To make this kind of attack, first turn the vehicle on the spot in the direction you intend to move it and declare how many inches the vehicle is going to move."
Pg 69, col 2, par 1, line 1, TANKS: Ramming: "Ramming is a special kind of Tank Shock move and must be executed the same way, except that the tank must always move at the highest speed it is capable of."

When you DECLARE a ramming attack, you are DECLARING that you are going to move at the vehicle's highest speed possible, whether you move less distance than that speed allows or not. Therefore the unit inside should be treated as having moved the max speed of the vehicle. Basically, the driver guns it and then comes to a krumping stop when he hits something that doesn't give. He doesn't crawl carefully to the other vehicle and tap it with his bumper. The effect of this recklessness and acceleration on the unit embarked is taken into account when saying that the vehicle is treated as having moved the highest speed possible no matter what distance it traveled. Are you saying that this is not an effect, intention, and spirit of the Ramming rule?