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Hello all,
I was doing really well against my friend who plays Tau. As of late, I have been really having to grind out games against him. Wondering if my strategy is flawed or I am just getting an increased challenge due to the luck of the die. Here are my recent issues:

1.) Broadsides w/rainguns and shield drones - cant seem to kill them. He deploys them in the far reaches of the zone and takes full advantage of the long range. I have tried to do the range thing and have failed. I tried running terminators up to him and I get mowed down before I get there for CC. I even tried the Landraider rush and that did not end well. Even went the route of Drop Pods with tactical squads hoping that rate of fire would fare better and that did not work either.

2.) Piranha x 3 squads - I take a beating from them since I can't hit them as they always move so far to get a cover save when I shoot at them. Tried using a Dread + Landraider to counter this and that epically failed twice as they have always survived long enough to get close and have the melta benefits from their loadout.

What are the best counters/suggestins for eliminating these two threats? Just to add, I have just about everything in the SM line, so unit availability would not be an issue.

EDIT: I should have added what he normally runs. Forgive me if I don't get all the names right as I don't have all the Tau units memorized. His force normally has the following:

2 Broadsides with TL Railguns + 2 shield drones
Piranha x 3 w/fusion blasters (I think that is what they are called)
Jump Infantry in suits x 3 with plasma guns and SMS
Hammerhead with a railgun (I think)
A unit that hits me with marker lights.

I hope that helps.

1) try outflanking Scouts w/ a fist to tie them up and kill them.
2) Not to sure about the Piranha because I don't play them, but you could try quantity of shots over quality. Turn some assault cannons toward their direction, and they should be disabled at least. I think one of the main weaknesses of non-imperial vehicles is protection against being disabled by shaken/stun.

I looked at the title and though..."No you don't."


Seriously though, I have used both Assault squads and Assault terminators to beat Broadsides. The key here I think is the word ASSAULT.

The Tau player I usually play generally skips the Piranha, but I have used devastators with lascannons or missile launchers on them fairly well before.

Uhm what are his troops and HQ? I don't see any.

Lord_Osma wrote:I looked at the title and though..."No you don't."


Seriously though, I have used both Assault squads and Assault terminators to beat Broadsides. The key here I think is the word ASSAULT.

The Tau player I usually play generally skips the Piranha, but I have used devastators with lascannons or missile launchers on them fairly well before.

Wouldn't Terminators be better used against more dangerous opponents such as Crisis Suits? Just about any unit can tie up a tau in cc, so why not use Scouts? They can infiltrate in or outflank and hit them befor they have a change to react. Also, if you combine them with Shrike, the have the possibility of a first turn assault.

On a quick note, it's called a hammerhead, not a devilfish with a rail gun.

Anyway, what I've always done with against broadsides is outflank or infiltrate something close enough to ruin their day via CC

The Piranhas, well, if they're constantly turbo boosting around well... Anything from pouring shots to assaulting them, once stunned, shaken, or immoblized, should be easy pickings. Otherwise avoid them as best you can and tear up the core of his army

You don't have to kill broadsides you just have to stop them from shooting. Put anything into close combat with them, and you have bought yourself like 2 turns free. As others have said, outflanking scouts work really well for this.

The piranha are easy. They are AV10 sides and back and open topped.. Just pour bolter fire into them, and they will die quickly.

And to his suits, Krak missiles are the bain of their existence. It negates their armor, and causes instant death. So as long as you hit, and don't roll a 1 for wounding, you will be killing a suit every turn.

Any vehicles will draw fire and probably not survive. If you do take a Land Raider, drive 12" turn 1 and pop smoke... that cover save is more valuable than a single weapon shot. If you take a Dread, run him and pop smoke since you can do both on the same turn.

Try some bikes. No really. Proxy some if he will let you. Hide if he is going first, turboboost on your turn 1, and assault everything you can turn 2.

Just remember to run and assault with all you have. Even Tactical Marines should be assaulting if they can.

Also, something to consider is told some dreads in drop pods in reserve. Set them up with an assault cannon and ccw. Pop out, shoot, hope you survive, and then assault.

Vindicators with the pie plate will kill an entire broadside squad if the vehicle can make it there in one piece and you don't roll ones - if the drone controller dies the drones die with him, and you should have enough wrap around wounds to at least kill some squad members.

Tau is my primary army and I've stuck with them through 5th. I've actually placed in a few tournaments so I think I'm a decent general and I've lost my broadsides three times - twice in melee (incubus and death company) and once from a vindicator shell. To be honest, Tau will thrive if you use vehicles to try to counter them. They have trouble with bikes/jump infantry (things that can jump 12" plasma/fusion suits and plasma in general) and foot lists that can fire at range. Devastators concern me more then predators, etc.

As far as the pirahna go, often times the Tau player brings them along hoping they suck up more fire than they are worth. Once again, avoiding vehicular lists and opting for jump infantry and bikes will make the pirahnas useless to the tau player.

If you insist on using vehicles, you need to flood him with targets. Land Raider, Vindicator, Three Rhinos and a dread flooding. Pop smoke on everything and don't bother shooting until you get point blank. That's how my broadsides always got assaulted off - I just didn't have enough shots to knock out both the land raider *and* the vindicator in the same turn and the one that lived caused me issues.

Where are his troops? I see none listed

What's his HQ? I see none listed

Is he playing the Piranhas as a Squadron or as 3 individual units? If he's playing them individually, add in his Pathfinders (guys with the marker lights) and that's 4 Fast Attack Choices.

In short, I don't know if the dude is playing legal lists based on what you have indicated here.

Any of your fast hard hitting units; Sword and Shotgun Scouts, Assault Squads, Vanguard Vets, and Bikes. The nice thing about playing Ultramarines is the whole Codex is available to you.

Jefffar wrote:Uhm what are his troops and HQ? I don't see any.

He normally uses a general suit commander and Firewarriors (if I recall the name correctly)

acekevin8412 wrote:

Lord_Osma wrote:I looked at the title and though..."No you don't."


Seriously though, I have used both Assault squads and Assault terminators to beat Broadsides. The key here I think is the word ASSAULT.

The Tau player I usually play generally skips the Piranha, but I have used devastators with lascannons or missile launchers on them fairly well before.

Wouldn't Terminators be better used against more dangerous opponents such as Crisis Suits? Just about any unit can tie up a tau in cc, so why not use Scouts? They can infiltrate in or outflank and hit them befor they have a change to react. Also, if you combine them with Shrike, the have the possibility of a first turn assault.

Based on how he deploys that could work. He normally puts the Broadsides in the back corner and then does a wall of Kroot to prevent anyone from assaulting.

PraetorDave wrote:You don't have to kill broadsides you just have to stop them from shooting. Put anything into close combat with them, and you have bought yourself like 2 turns free. As others have said, outflanking scouts work really well for this.

The piranha are easy. They are AV10 sides and back and open topped.. Just pour bolter fire into them, and they will die quickly.

And to his suits, Krak missiles are the bain of their existence. It negates their armor, and causes instant death. So as long as you hit, and don't roll a 1 for wounding, you will be killing a suit every turn.

He loves Jump-Shoot-Jump. They are rarely in the open for me to shoot them.

acekevin8412 wrote:Also, something to consider is told some dreads in drop pods in reserve. Set them up with an assault cannon and ccw. Pop out, shoot, hope you survive, and then assault.

Tried that twice. Most success I have had is that I killed a shield drone. Damn his invulnerable saves.

Jefffar wrote:Where are his troops? I see none listed

What's his HQ? I see none listed

Is he playing the Piranhas as a Squadron or as 3 individual units? If he's playing them individually, add in his Pathfinders (guys with the marker lights) and that's 4 Fast Attack Choices.

In short, I don't know if the dude is playing legal lists based on what you have indicated here.

He plays them as a squadron.

I probably should add that 99% of our games are Annihilation format so it is not that we are fighting over objectives in our games.

Havok210 wrote:

Jefffar wrote:Where are his troops? I see none listed

What's his HQ? I see none listed

Is he playing the Piranhas as a Squadron or as 3 individual units? If he's playing them individually, add in his Pathfinders (guys with the marker lights) and that's 4 Fast Attack Choices.

In short, I don't know if the dude is playing legal lists based on what you have indicated here.

He plays them as a squadron.

I probably should add that 99% of our games are Annihilation format so it is not that we are fighting over objectives in our games.

Having them in a squadron makes it even easier to kill them. Being open-topped, your bolters can already wreck them on glancing 6s, but being in a squadron, the first two piranhas only have to be immobilised, meaning your bolters can now kill them with 1/3 of all glancing hits, as well as your other weapons also having an easier time of it.

Re: The Piranhas

He may have decoy Launchers to force a re-roll on those immobilized.

Bigger issue is his Disruptor pods - 4+ cover saves wherever he moves on the boards. Just remember those don't work if the shooter is within 12 inches.


Does he drop off his drones to make walls to block your melee units? If he does, that is annoying . . . but according the the GW FAQ the separate drone squadron is worth a kill point.

Jefffar wrote:Re: The Piranhas

He may have decoy Launchers to force a re-roll on those immobilized.

Bigger issue is his Disruptor pods - 4+ cover saves wherever he moves on the boards. Just remember those don't work if the shooter is within 12 inches.


Does he drop off his drones to make walls to block your melee units? If he does, that is annoying . . . but according the the GW FAQ the separate drone squadron is worth a kill point.

He does not have decoy launchers. He may have disruptor pods on the Piranhas. All I know is that he always moves them so that he gets a cover save.

As far as his drones, he stoped dropping them off after the FAQ came it stating that they are worth kill points. He does have a launcher on them that wounds during assault so he is not as fearful of me doing that.

Flechette dischargers can be nasty, but you shouldn't be worried. They are mostly for hordes, and your 3+ armor should hold up against them fine.

as far as dealing with broadsides

scout marines - LOL I see them in reserve i move broadsides up and laugh with they come in
Vindicator - dead before arrival
DS dread - dead once it lands

there are two effective ways to deal with broadsides
1. assault marines (more than one squad) they will work well but you need a good amount to get the job done and they can be blocked by other units - also dont be afraid to run with them to get a few more inches
2. the easy way you need to shoot them with las cannons and wound with at least 3 first two will go to drones the third kills a suit (vs standard 2 SD config) the trick is to by pass protection of the drones through volume a LAS pred, or even better DEV squad can do this just have to place them right.

Piranha
1. med - heavy weapons spam str 5 and up can bring these down they are not durable their goal is block/strike you transports and heavy armor (D-pods only work outside 12in) close in and volume them down with bolters just hit the side with your assault squad while they are moving across the board - volume will win out even against cover saves you just have to shoot them alot keeping in mind on a pen you only need 3+ to kill them cause in squads imobilize is a kill on vehicles
2. RAM them they are skiffs and dont do much back



also consider taking shrike with an assault squad wich makes you WHOLE ARMY FLEET so just and you can infiltraite with him and a squad of assault marines my buddy will do this with 2 scout squads cammo and missile launchers 3 fully loaded assault squads shrike in one. three dev squads 4 LAS a pop but thats if you want to be an ass

BTW whats the games points?

atlas_garon wrote:as far as dealing with broadsides

scout marines - LOL I see them in reserve i move broadsides up and laugh with they come in
Vindicator - dead before arrival
DS dread - dead once it lands

there are two effective ways to deal with broadsides
1. assault marines (more than one squad) they will work well but you need a good amount to get the job done and they can be blocked by other units - also dont be afraid to run with them to get a few more inches
2. the easy way you need to shoot them with las cannons and wound with at least 3 first two will go to drones the third kills a suit (vs standard 2 SD config) the trick is to by pass protection of the drones through volume a LAS pred, or even better DEV squad can do this just have to place them right.

Piranha
1. med - heavy weapons spam str 5 and up can bring these down they are not durable their goal is block/strike you transports and heavy armor (D-pods only work outside 12in) close in and volume them down with bolters just hit the side with your assault squad while they are moving across the board - volume will win out even against cover saves you just have to shoot them alot keeping in mind on a pen you only need 3+ to kill them cause in squads imobilize is a kill on vehicles
2. RAM them they are skiffs and dont do much back



also consider taking shrike with an assault squad wich makes you WHOLE ARMY FLEET so just and you can infiltraite with him and a squad of assault marines my buddy will do this with 2 scout squads cammo and missile launchers 3 fully loaded assault squads shrike in one. three dev squads 4 LAS a pop but thats if you want to be an ass

BTW whats the games points?

We normally play somewhere between 1,000 and 2,000 points. Just depends on how much time we have.

First off, drop any tanks you have. Especially Land Raiders, because those are too valuable and too tempting. If you really want vehicles, go for a 3-model landspeeder squad, 2 armed with assault cannons and 1 with a typhoon missile launcher. Then, go for scouts. Space marine scouts are a dangerous to tau as a genestealer is to a vanilla marine. If you really want mobility, go for a 5-man scout squad armed with Bolt pistols and ccw's, loaded into a Landspeeder Storm. Use the turbo on any speeder, and give them as much defense they can possibly take. Also, I would suggest a thunderfire cannon, but only if you can get him on a tower. If you can take LOD, do so. the 3+ inv is invaluable against all their railgun fire, and ALWAYS deepstrike them near your biggest threat. Take a captain w/ jump pack and any weapons, and fly him in with your landspeeders.

atlas_garon wrote:2. RAM them they are skiffs and dont do much back

Thats terrible advice. They are skimmers, which means they have a 3+ chance of avoiding the ram entirely. Good luck with that. Plus they are fast, so unless they park in front of one of your vehicles, you won't be able to get near them.

at 2k you can stack the las up nicely take dev squads in a 7 man config (incase the pirahanas try a suicide run) throw in a las pred and keep it in cover
razorbacks stern gaurd squads - have them use vengence rounds once then close in makes shot work of xv88 las the razerbacks and pop smoke when you push
troops the scout combo or tac squads with plasma rifles (large rhinos, small squads razorbacks W/ plasma/las)
speeders or bikers W/multi melta assault marines for fast attack

basicly with your single shot stuff you can use them to strike the incoming piranha and try and knock out drones before you unload full squad strikes through volume you beat the shield drones baring them being in cover every third las that wounds KILLS a suit so you can whiddle them down at range.

now for the transports MOST OF THEM WILL DIE - no worries though use cover if you go second if you go first deploy max out move full amount pop smoke and you will be half way across the board once they start getting hit if you bring alot of transports it will take the heat off your heavy weapons and for him to waste all his anti tank on transports AND if he uses pirhana against them then you can slaughter them inside their protection with NO cover save if the piranha are in range then after they kill a tank 12in they are in prime gun range if you sprinkled some plasma melta into your squads they will devistate them if their transport gets destroyed the cover also will save you from the plasma fire of battle suits so you can then push out and strike the big thing is closing the gap if you want to try it a librarian with force dome can help but usually if your rocking some assault marines you wont need it as they will be target number 1 for the plasma if your dice dont hate you and you roll odds its should be gravy and DONT be afriad to forgo shooting to run extra inchs are worth it if you can get a good volly off


Automatically Appended Next Post:
thats the point Dave they will RUN out of the way and you can keep moving declare full movement IF you have the inchs for raming and instead of going around plough through and KEEP all of your movment

If you are constantly being thwarted by shield drones and cover saves from the skimmers it sounds like you do not have a good volume of ranged attacks in your list.

also, are you making sure YOUR vehicles have cover?
Railguns are nasty, but tau do not have the volume of fire that other (more modern) armies do. Cover saves are the bane of the broadside. Also, unless they have advanced stabalization systems, they can't move and shoot...which means working cover.

Kill things in this order:
Markerlight units
Crisis suits.

These are the core of the tau, the markers are amazing force multipliers (he needs them to make up for bad BS and how easy it is to get cover saves in 5th).
Crisis suits die VERY easily...misslies, meltas, las cannons, heck, even bolter fire volume.

Work the terrain, come at suits from more than once angle, they can't get cover saves all the time.

Kill the scoring units; tau troops are amazingly fragile, kroot have NO ARMOR save...they are total bait to flamers and thunderfire cannons. They also have NO defense against tank shock.
They also have a very hard time taking objectives away from tough troops.

Play the mission, work the terrain, kill the crisis suits.

Try droppodding a bunch of sternguard with combi-meltas or combi-plasma. That should annihilate a squadron of broadsides.

atlas_garon wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:thats the point Dave they will RUN out of the way and you can keep moving declare full movement IF you have the inchs for raming and instead of going around plough through and KEEP all of your movment

First of all, your posts are extremely hard to read, due to your lack of spelling and proper grammar skills. Use the period key, it won't hurt you.

I think you are getting tank shock and rams mixed up. If you ram a vehicle, both vehicles stop. If a skimmer makes its avoid throw, both vehicles stop (the skimmer does not actually move at all), but the tank shock never happens. Both vehicles just end in contact of each other.

Put some more terrain on the board. Get some of those bastions and plop them on. Or make some. Start putting objectives in places his broadsides can't cover.
Don't forget you have smoke launchers on rhinos and land raiders.
Don't forget that you can move a rhino twelve inches, hop out (Likely in a crisis squads face) and dump a round of shooting at their suits another 12 inches.
Null zone works on shield drones too.
Don't get Ackbar`d focusing on a big flashy unit of his (Broadsides) when it plays right into the rest of his army. Remember the victory conditions. Not every game will be annihilation.

Now, as far as list tailoring...Get a bunch of jump pack squads with powerfist sergeants, captain shrike, and put enough terrain on the board to cover your advance. Don't forget to infiltrate. Watch his suits crumple. Nothing says "DIE!" to tau like a 19-24 inch move-run-assault move on a powerfist unit. If you run a terminator squad in a land raider generally, the deal gets even better at around 22-28 or so (including disembark and size of bases. Bring some speeders or long range AT for popping his skimmers, as powerfists generally don't do so well here.) This means that if your raider survives turn one (Smoke launchers!) then you will fairly reliably be able to reach the opposite board edge from where you started by turn 2. Otherwise, turn three. He gets two turns to whittle your terminators down, that's it. Meanwhile the rest of the list should be running around screaming about sparta.

Powerfists, meltaguns, anything with S8 and AP2 or better will hurt his suits severely. Even a powerfist + Meltagun tac squad shooting and charging in will almost certainly kill a unit of crisis suits. With shrike, just charge in. Don't give him the chance to take morale and fall back, or take casualties to make himself out of range. The powerfist will do the job just fine.

I don't think Fast Skimmers get the cover save from flat out (I'm moving and my books are boxed). But he doesn't even have to move to get the cover save from his Disruption Pod.

Anyway, big thing is get out of annihilation. It sounds like the dude is troop light and Firewarriors are one of the more vulnerable troop choices out there. So it should be pretty easy to wipe them off the table. So as long as you are playing games in which objectives matter (2/3rds of the game types in the main book) the Firewarriors become an Achilles heel.

A buddy of mine runs with about 800 points of Crisis suits in a 1000 point army. Best investment I ever made was in 2 Long Fang squads with missile launchers. I figured I could knock out his shield drones and draw some fire until my Wolf Guard could come in and mop up. The Wolf Guard never made it to the fight. As far as the Broadsides go, Devastators with Lascannons or Plasma Cannons would probably be exactly what you need. It's cheap, it'll lay down good fire power, and when you play as SM you can get a bunch of red shirts to keep your heavy weapons firing when taking casualties.

Devastators with Lascannons or Plasma Cannons would probably be exactly what you need. It's cheap, it'll lay down good fire power, and when you play as SM you can get a bunch of red shirts to keep your heavy weapons firing when taking casualties.

Devastators are NOT long fangs. By the time you have purchased the four lascannons and the extra wounds, you have bought BOTH of your 5 ML long fang packs you referenced and put a wolf guard sergeant on one of them (With an upgrade.) For their cost devastators are meh at best, particularly with anything more expensive than a HB or ML.

Take the points for that squad, and go buy nearly anything else in the codex. You could go grab three unupgraded predators and ram them straight up the board to be used as mobile cover and LOS blocking so you can get to assault and you will likely be better off.

Valid point. I should probably have done some homework in the SM codex before making the assumption that SW units would bridge the gap. I figured out how much it would cost, and it was shocking. For four heavy weapons, no less. I officially rescind my previous advice.