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Hopefully this is in the correct forum. If not excuse my ignorance

So my question is actually the following. Except some elements of the Death Gurad, Iacton Qruze from Luna Wolves are there any other loyal elements of the fallen legions that could be still alive or survived the Massacre at Istavan?

I am aware of this being a complete hypothetical question but I would still like to hear your opinions.

And as an extra bit, what would the reaction of the Loyal Marines would be if these elements appeared and pledged their loyalty to the Emperor, before the Siege of Terra or even after the siege?

Edit: The spoiler was added since what appeares there is my personal opinion.

It's strongly implied the Blood Ravens are a part of the Thousand sons that Magnus sent away before the wolves arrived on Prospero.
I doubt there would have been anyone left to declare themselves loyal after Horus picked out those he thought wouldn't follow him and bombed the feth out of them on Istvaan III. If there were any that showed up however odds are they'd be locked up if not simply shot.
Not super big spoiler but very few people would have read Outcast Dead atm I'd think.

Although stories of small groups of loyalists in traitor legions during the heresy are always awesome, one of my favorite short stories has 30 or so Iron Warriors that held a fortress against a great company for a single local day (aprox 360 Terran days) in Age of Darkness.

The Hawk Lords look suspiciously like pre Heresy Emperor's Children...

jonolikespie wrote:It's strongly implied the Blood Ravens are a part of the Thousand sons that Magnus sent away before the wolves arrived on Prospero.
I doubt there would have been anyone left to declare themselves loyal after Horus picked out those he thought wouldn't follow him and bombed the feth out of them on Istvaan III. If there were any that showed up however odds are they'd be locked up if not simply shot.
Not super big spoiler but very few people would have read Outcast Dead atm I'd think.

Spoiler:

There were like 100 marines on Terra from the traitor legions so they sent 3,000 or so humans to kill/capture them simply for belonging to traitor leagions even though they did nothing to indicate they were traitors themselves

Although stories of small groups of loyalists in traitor legions during the heresy are always awesome, one of my favorite short stories has 30 or so Iron Warriors that held a fortress against a great company for a single local day (aprox 360 Terran days) in Age of Darkness.

I'm going to have to read the book, but I suspect that that didn't work out particularly well.

It's entirely possible. Capture at the hands of the Eldar, warp storms, and a bazillion other things could lead to a pre-Heresy group of, say, World Eaters showing up and going "Hey guys, what's going on?"

Tragically, both the tales of Tarikus and Captain Lysander tell us that even loyal Marines who return after being presumed dead are subject to a degree of suspicion that could almost be termed inquisitorial. Marines from traitor Legions would probably be annihilated before they got a chance to protest. There's a slim chance that they might be shuffled off somewhere they could do some good for the Imperium. (Probably the Deathwatch.)

Blackshields from the deathwatch could be marines of this type.

Bobakos wrote: the Fallen from the DA's, are there any other loyal elements of the fallen legions that could be still alive or survived the Massacre at Istavan?

Are you saying that the Dark Angels aren't loyal? Also the fallen split from the Dark Angels well after the Massacre at Istavan.

Red Scorpions could have originated from something of the like as their geneseed origins are unknown which causes the Imperium to distrust them despite their fairly outstanding record.

BluntmanDC wrote:

Bobakos wrote: the Fallen from the DA's, are there any other loyal elements of the fallen legions that could be still alive or survived the Massacre at Istavan?

Are you saying that the Dark Angels aren't loyal? Also the fallen split from the Dark Angels well after the Massacre at Istavan.

Well I assume it depends on the perspective. IMO Lion looked after his own interests and that does not make him particularly loyal to the Emperor, now does it? And according to the testimonies of Astelan, who was in the Legion I long before they discovered their Primarch, he did waht he did because he was loyal to the Emperor first, then loyal to this Primarch. We do have another of that example, Iacton Qruze of the Luna Wolves.

Anyway these are my personnal opinions and for now it does not matter what I believe, therefore let me re-phrase the question above:

Except some elements of the Death Gurad, Iacton Qruze from Luna Wolves, are there any other loyal elements of the fallen legions that could be still alive or survived the Massacre at Istavan?

Your fluff, you can do what you like with it, but...

There is absolutely zero chance that geneseed from the traitor legions would be used for creation of new chapters. There is also zero chance that a group of loyalists who got stuck in the warp or something would be accepted into the Imperium in the 41st millennium.

I personally used this idea as the basis for my own SM Chapter, the Emperor's Eagles, when I created them back in 1995. They are loyalists from the Emperor's Children who did not participate in the Istvaan Massacres (they were off getting re-supplied in another system) and who surrendered to the remaining loyalist forces. Despite initial mistrust on the part of the loyalists, the Eagles fought for the Emperor for the remainder of the Heresy. Afterward, they were placed under special (and permanent)Inquisitorial review, which requires an Inquisitorial presence to keep tabs on them and ensure they don't turn. Which makes it rough for me to field them nowadays, as the books that allowed you to field Inquisitors in a SM force are now both outdated...

I like to think that all the Loyal fighters that abandoned the Traitor Legions like Iacton Qruze and fought for the side of the Emperor joined the fledgling Inquisition or possibly formed the Deathwatch. I have no evidence for this ascertion, i just like it and it is a neat fit.

Bobakos wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:

Bobakos wrote: the Fallen from the DA's, are there any other loyal elements of the fallen legions that could be still alive or survived the Massacre at Istavan?

Are you saying that the Dark Angels aren't loyal? Also the fallen split from the Dark Angels well after the Massacre at Istavan.

Well I assume it depends on the perspective. IMO Lion looked after his own interests and that does not make him particularly loyal to the Emperor, now does it? And according to the testimonies of Astelan, who was in the Legion I long before they discovered their Primarch, he did waht he did because he was loyal to the Emperor first, then loyal to this Primarch. We do have another of that example, Iacton Qruze of the Luna Wolves.

Anyway these are my personnal opinions and for now it does not matter what I believe, therefore let me re-phrase the question above:

Except some elements of the Death Gurad, Iacton Qruze from Luna Wolves, are there any other loyal elements of the fallen legions that could be still alive or survived the Massacre at Istavan?

Nearly all of the Thousand Sons' naval assets would still be out roaming around.

If im not mistaken didn't Loken survive and become one of the first Masters of the Grey Knights alongside Qruze?

Don't forget about Captain Garro

Given the nature of the Warp, I think it's perfectly possible for, say, a battle barge of the Iron Warriors, that got lost in the warp before the heresy only to emerge 10,000 years later. They'd probably be destroyed on the spot, but it's a possibility.

KaiserTJ wrote:If im not mistaken didn't Loken survive and become one of the first Masters of the Grey Knights alongside Qruze?

Yes correct, Garro was sent to find "special" marines to join him, details in the Spoiler.



This lot are in the Garro Audio books.

It's suggested they where the founders of the Grey Knights because they're loyalty to Big E was greater than their respective primarchs even tho the books don't actually say it as such.

Its not impossible its just some people won't like that.

KaiserTJ wrote:If im not mistaken didn't Loken survive and become one of the first Masters of the Grey Knights alongside Qruze?

Im not trying to disclaim your post but im just curious as to were you got that, I had always hoped he would survive but was never sure.

other than that I know Garro and the remainder of his men, as well as Qruze


Automatically Appended Next Post:
survived

BluntmanDC wrote:

Bobakos wrote: the Fallen from the DA's, are there any other loyal elements of the fallen legions that could be still alive or survived the Massacre at Istavan?

Are you saying that the Dark Angels aren't loyal? Also the fallen split from the Dark Angels well after the Massacre at Istavan.

They aren't traitors per se but they put their vendetta ahead of the Imperium all the time, even going so far as to attack loyal civilians and other Astartes in order to apprehend the Fallen. That doesn't seem very loyal to me.

jonolikespie wrote:It's strongly implied the Blood Ravens are a part of the Thousand sons that Magnus sent away before the wolves arrived on Prospero.
I doubt there would have been anyone left to declare themselves loyal after Horus picked out those he thought wouldn't follow him and bombed the feth out of them on Istvaan III. If there were any that showed up however odds are they'd be locked up if not simply shot.
Not super big spoiler but very few people would have read Outcast Dead atm I'd think.

Spoiler:

There were like 100 marines on Terra from the traitor legions so they sent 3,000 or so humans to kill/capture them simply for belonging to traitor leagions even though they did nothing to indicate they were traitors themselves

Although stories of small groups of loyalists in traitor legions during the heresy are always awesome, one of my favorite short stories has 30 or so Iron Warriors that held a fortress against a great company for a single local day (aprox 360 Terran days) in Age of Darkness.

Sources pls?

DornFist wrote:

KaiserTJ wrote:If im not mistaken didn't Loken survive and become one of the first Masters of the Grey Knights alongside Qruze?

Im not trying to disclaim your post but im just curious as to were you got that, I had always hoped he would survive but was never sure.

other than that I know Garro and the remainder of his men, as well as Qruze


Automatically Appended Next Post:
survived

Spoilering the below just in case, but see the spoiler as to where this comes from.

AvatarForm wrote:

Sources pls?

The Outcast Dead

Rebirth by Chris Wraight in Age of Darkness is where the Thousand Sons return after the Burning of Prospero.

There's a 'dream sequence' in a Thousand Sons that might suggest there's a link between the Blood Ravens as well.

jonolikespie does mention these in his post though.

There are several Short stories of loyalists from traitor legions that were trapped in sieges and missed the call.

Rabidweasel wrote:

DornFist wrote:

KaiserTJ wrote:If im not mistaken didn't Loken survive and become one of the first Masters of the Grey Knights alongside Qruze?

Im not trying to disclaim your post but im just curious as to were you got that, I had always hoped he would survive but was never sure.

other than that I know Garro and the remainder of his men, as well as Qruze


Automatically Appended Next Post:
survived

Spoilering the below just in case, but see the spoiler as to where this comes from.

Spoiler:

Loken surviving and Garo, Loken et all, being suggested as the start of the Grey Knights, you need to get hold of and listen to the Garo Audio books. Legion of One and Oath of Moment. Garo is sent to collect people who's faith to Big E is beyond that of their legion. Part of that Garo is sent back to Istvaan, and finds Loken qho is slightly.... different...... to when we last see him being buried in rubble. Sadly that storyline hasn't been carried on yet. To me, Loken is one of the best charecters in the HH, so it was a shame to read he had apparently died, so these audio books are well worth a listen.

I hate listening to audio books, I'm so ticked that they just don't release those in print

squidhills wrote:I personally used this idea as the basis for my own SM Chapter, the Emperor's Eagles, when I created them back in 1995. They are loyalists from the Emperor's Children who did not participate in the Istvaan Massacres (they were off getting re-supplied in another system) and who surrendered to the remaining loyalist forces. Despite initial mistrust on the part of the loyalists, the Eagles fought for the Emperor for the remainder of the Heresy. Afterward, they were placed under special (and permanent)Inquisitorial review, which requires an Inquisitorial presence to keep tabs on them and ensure they don't turn. Which makes it rough for me to field them nowadays, as the books that allowed you to field Inquisitors in a SM force are now both outdated...

Does the new Gk not work for you? Haha, it would surely take some tweeking, but surely a chapter that has seen so much faithful service as the Emperor's Eagles could fit into a GK mold of some sorts.

Blood Ravens could be the Thousands Sons onboard the Fleet that was sent to "the edge of the galaxy" just before the Burning of Prospero. The Fleet was never mentioned until Age of Darkness, and they weren't transported to the Planet of the Sorcerers with the rest of the Legion. In Age of Darkness: Rebirth, the Thousand Sons were described as "disgusted by what their Primarch had done" and one of them, Revuel Arvida, (who could be the one of the mysterious Four Heroes of the Blood Ravens), leaves the ruins of the City of Light after saying "Knowledge is Power", with his Corvidae Crest being emphasized. This could be subtle hint to the Blood Ravens. And besides, Blood Ravens battle doctrines involve predicting enemy movements and positions in a manner similar to what the Corvidae did.

Brotherjulian wrote:
I hate listening to audio books, I'm so ticked that they just don't release those in print

Im with you there mate.

Tadashi wrote:Blood Ravens could be the Thousands Sons onboard the Fleet that was sent to "the edge of the galaxy" just before the Burning of Prospero. The Fleet was never mentioned until Age of Darkness, and they weren't transported to the Planet of the Sorcerers with the rest of the Legion. In Age of Darkness: Rebirth, the Thousand Sons were described as "disgusted by what their Primarch had done" and one of them, Revuel Arvida, (who could be the one of the mysterious Four Heroes of the Blood Ravens), leaves the ruins of the City of Light after saying "Knowledge is Power", with his Corvidae Crest being emphasized. This could be subtle hint to the Blood Ravens. And besides, Blood Ravens battle doctrines involve predicting enemy movements and positions in a manner similar to what the Corvidae did.

"Hinted at" is often used by those hoping for something more...

Unless it is straight out stated, Im not buying your rumours.

AvatarForm wrote:

"Hinted at" is often used by those hoping for something more...

Unless it is straight out stated, Im not buying your rumours.

I just wish GW would hurry and reveal what happened to the loyalists aboard the Fleet. The Thousand Sons are my favorite Legion, and quite probably were the most misunderstood among the pre-Heresy Legions.

They might not have been instantly executed, but their gene seed would have been deemed unfit and would have died with them. I don't know if this is anything GW has ever officially touched on, so if you play 30K, it might make sense for an army. But by the time of 40K, any loyalist remnants of the traitor legions would be long gone.