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2011/11/15 12:20:44
Subject: Occupy Wall Street crowd evicted for nonpayment of rent
Occupy Wall Street: New York police clear protest campAdvertisement
There were chaotic scenes as protesters resisted police
Continue reading the main story
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In pictures: Police clear NYC camp
An American Dream deferred
New York police have dismantled the Occupy Wall Street camp in Zuccotti Park and arrested more than 70 people following a late-night raid.
Protesters were ordered to leave at about 01:00 (06:00 GMT), before police began removing tents and property.
The New York camp was set up in September to protest against economic inequality - it inspired dozens of similar camps around the world.
A camp in Oakland, California was cleared overnight on Monday.
Police in New York gave an announcement as their operation began, telling protesters: "The city has determined that the continued occupation of Zuccotti Park poses an increasing health and fire safety hazard."
Mayor Michael Bloomberg's office released a message on Twitter saying protesters should "temporarily leave and remove tents and tarps" but could return once the park was clear.
For the city of New York, this has been a balancing act all along between the constitutional right to free speech and freedom of expression and the right of people in the city to get on with their lives.
City officials tried to walk that tightrope, but in the end the park's owners said the conditions there were disgusting and asked for police to clear it.
The message here is that income inequality is widening in America and that the banks received a bailout after the financial crisis which protesters feel they were responsible for causing.
And that message does resonate in America, where people are still struggling with a fragile economy, but equally here in New York, there has been a division.
Leaflets were handed out telling occupants to "immediately remove all private property" and warning they would be arrested if they interfered with the operation.
Any belongings left behind would be put into storage, said the notice, and protesters would not be allowed to bring camping equipment back if they returned.
The protesters' live web stream from the park showed crowds chanting "all day, all week, Occupy Wall Street" and "the whole world is watching" as police moved into the camp, close to New York's financial district.
"They gave us about 20 minutes to get our things together," protester Sam Wood told Reuters. "It's a painful process to watch, they are sweeping through the park."
The area around the park was sealed off and journalists were prevented from entering. Some of the protesters said police had used pepper spray and accused them of using excessive force.
Police spokesman Paul Browne said most people left the park when told to, but that a small group of people had refused to leave.
He said 70 people were arrested in the park itself and several more nearby. Some protesters who had chained themselves to trees were reportedly cut free by police.
Business pressure
The BBC's Laura Trevelyan, near the park, said the overnight action clearly took the camp by surprise.
Police said most protesters left the park once the order was given But the protesters have been discussing regrouping at other sites around the city and believe the manner of the clearance will only amplify their message, our correspondent adds.
Hundreds of people are reported to have moved to nearby Foley Square to continue their protest. A message was sent from a Twitter account, OccupyFoleySq, set up on Tuesday morning, saying: "We are here and growing."
The city authorities and Mayor Bloomberg have come under pressure from residents and local businesses to shut down the camp, which has numbered about 200 occupants as it nears its two-month anniversary.
Plans had been in place for an escalation of the protest on Thursday, marking the two-month anniversary, with a street carnival scheduled to descend on Wall Street in an attempt to shut it down.
Protest organisers released a statement saying that while they may have been physically removed, "you can't evict an idea whose time has come".
"Our idea is that our political structures should serve us, the people - all of us, not just those who have amassed great wealth and power," they said.
The Occupy movement, inspired by the Arab Spring uprisings and economic protest camps in Spain, is calling for a more equal distribution of the world's wealth and a fairer response to the global economic crisis.
Continue reading the main story
US
The most high profile protest has been Occupy Wall Street in New York, which began on 17 September. The protesters call themselves "the 99%" and are demanding major reforms of the global financial system by curbing the power of banks and corporations. Protests have also taken place in cities across the US, including Washington DC, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Denver, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Houston and Boston. On 15 November, police moved in to clear the Occupy Wall Street protest, earlier they had cleared camps in Portland, Oregon and Oakland, California.
Europe
A protest in Madrid's Sol Square began in May and turned into a week-long sit in. Renewed protests in Europe started on 15 October with demonstrations in Rome, Berlin, Frankfurt, Leipzig, Hamburg, Dublin, Bucharest, Zurich and other cities. Demonstrations were largely peaceful, but around 70 people were injured when violence broke out in Rome.
UK
Protests at the London Stock Exchange in solidarity with Occupy Wall Street began on 15 October. After being denied access to Paternoster Square in front of the stock exchange, demonstrators organised a camp of around 150 tents outside St Paul's Cathedral. Protesters have been told their camp can remain until the new year, after plans to legally evict them were abandoned.
Canada
Demonstrations and protest camps began on 15 October in major cities, including Calgary, Halifax, Quebec, Toronto, Vancouver and Victoria. Police have cleared protesters from sites in Halifax and Ontario but campaigners at the biggest camp, in Toronto, have been allowed to remain.
Australia
Protests began in Sydney and Melbourne on 15 October. Police forcibly removed around 100 demonstrators from the Melbourne camp on 21 October.
Organisers in the US say most of the country's money is held by the richest 1% of the population and that they represent the other 99%.
They have received widespread support, including from many authority figures, but there have been concerns about safety and hygiene.
They have also been criticised for being a distraction from authorities trying to find a solution to the financial crisis, and for failing to suggest a viable alternative economic system.
The New York action comes after police arrested 33 people in Oakland, California as they raided the protest camp in Frank Ogawa Plaza early on Monday morning.
That camp had been marred by recent outbreaks of violence in and around it, including a fatal shooting last week. However, camp residents had said the killing was unconnected to their protest.
Officials said the Oakland camp was cleared amid fears of violence Police had declared the plaza a "crime scene" shortly before they entered.
Oakland Mayor Jean Quan said she had to act to end the camp "before someone else got hurt".
The city's police had said they sympathised with the protesters' cause, but urged them to "leave peacefully, with your heads held high, so we can get police officers back to work fighting crime in Oakland neighbourhoods".
A similar raid ended with police in riot gear arresting 50 people in Portland, Oregon on Sunday evening.
Police in a Vermont city have also evicted protesters after a man fatally shot himself last week inside a tent.
A number of other US cities have seen protests camps spring up in the past two months, and the Occupy movement has also spread to Europe, South America and Asia.
2011/11/15 13:08:20
Subject: Occupy Wall Street crowd evicted for nonpayment of rent
Melissia wrote:Unless, of course, that was an additional act of protest against the police's actions, because they believed it interfered with their constitutional right to protest.
But taht would never happen, we all know police would never interfere with the right to protest.
er...whatever. Thats not free speech though. So shut yer hole about 1st Amendment issues.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/15 13:47:44
2011/11/15 14:00:47
Subject: Occupy Wall Street crowd evicted for nonpayment of rent
Rented Tritium wrote:When you lock arms to defend your tent cities
... they're locking arms to defend their protest site. For a historical (albeit much more extreme) example, I can apply your argument to the civil rights protests too, because they kept at their sit-ins and marches despite police breaking the protests up, often violently.
Apparently they too forgot to stay on message because they didn't want to let the police bully them around.
The sit ins were protesting actual laws. The sit ins to defend the parks are protesting to protect their Obbamavilles. Thats fully two steps removed from any issue anyone who bathes cares about.
2011/11/15 17:08:57
Subject: Occupy Wall Street crowd evicted for nonpayment of rent
Melissia wrote:... no, but it does mean that since the camp was (possibly) a legally allowed form of protest
I am not sure how many times I have to say this, but a camp is not a form of speech. It is legally IMPOSSIBLE for a camp to count as speech, be protest and be protected. People protesting counts as a form of protest. A camp is not a form of protest.
If there is an order not to break down the camp, it has NOTHING to do with the first amendment and everything to do with a mayor's discretion as chief official. If said order exists, I PROMISE you it's just a temporary stay while they listen to arguments.
The judge's arguments were that the no tent rules were not in place before the protest. Sophistic nonsense. There were already rules about being their overnight - its a freaking private city park - they could kick them out at any time. Activist judge rightly ignored.
2011/11/15 17:20:15
Subject: Occupy Wall Street crowd evicted for nonpayment of rent
Melissia wrote:... no, but it does mean that since the camp was (possibly) a legally allowed form of protest
I am not sure how many times I have to say this, but a camp is not a form of speech. It is legally IMPOSSIBLE for a camp to count as speech, be protest and be protected. People protesting counts as a form of protest. A camp is not a form of protest.
If there is an order not to break down the camp, it has NOTHING to do with the first amendment and everything to do with a mayor's discretion as chief official. If said order exists, I PROMISE you it's just a temporary stay while they listen to arguments.
The judge's arguments were that the no tent rules were not in place before the protest. Sophistic nonsense. There were already rules about being their overnight - its a freaking private city park - they could kick them out at any time. Activist judge rightly ignored.
Unless the tent rules grandfathered in existing tents, it makes no difference when the rules went into effect, they were in effect when the action was taken and they were warned loudly on megaphones repeatedly that the tents were not allowed.
Yeah, it's dumb.
HOWEVER, we have the judicial branch for a reason. The mayor's office is gonna be in trouble for knowingly violating a court order, even a bad one.
Actually they didn't. The order (IIRC) came after. Activist judges tend to sleep in.
Now the rule is in place for any new Obamavilles so can be fully enforced.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/15 17:20:45
2011/11/15 18:23:11
Subject: Occupy Wall Street crowd evicted for nonpayment of rent
Frazzled wrote:The mayor wiped his butt with the court order
Then let the courts gak on him and put him in jail.
Good luck with that. However, as noted above the order was issued after the action occurred. However the NYC has since stated it will not permit tents etc back into the park.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/15 18:24:50
2011/11/15 19:01:27
Subject: Occupy Wall Street crowd evicted for nonpayment of rent
That and of course, the real reason. Citi was on the edge of collapse. AIG and Lehman collapses effectively froze the secondary markets. If Citi went the international financial system would potentially have fallen. That was the argument anyway.
The bailouts for the other institutions was a cover.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/15 19:02:13
2011/11/15 19:23:24
Subject: Occupy Wall Street crowd evicted for nonpayment of rent
Frazzled wrote:That and of course, the real reason.
Citi was on the edge of collapse. AIG and Lehman collapses effectively froze the secondary markets. If Citi went the international financial system would potentially have fallen. That was the argument anyway.
The bailouts for the other institutions was a cover.
Most o which was caused byyyyyyyyyy...
... our old friend, deregulation!
And our old friend - LAW mandating loans to persons who did not meet traditional lending criteria. Spread the blame correctly. There's more than enough to go around. Thank you Frank.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dsteingass wrote:People just want justice for the wrongs inflicted on them. In this case the deregulation directly caused the unchecked greed. If a gambler goes to a Casino and bets the farm and loses it, no one will bail the gambler out. But when Wall Street gambles and loses, the Government bails them out with OUR money. This is the fundamental reason people are pissed off. it is a damn shame that this whole tent business has diluted the real wrongdoing here.
You think the economy is in the toilet because of housing?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/15 19:24:25
2011/11/15 19:31:45
Subject: Occupy Wall Street crowd evicted for nonpayment of rent
" In this case the deregulation directly caused the unchecked greed"
Should be
In this case the deregulation unchecked the greed.
The greed was always there, it powers our entire economy. We couldn't exist without it. The problem is the "unchecked" not the "greed"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote:
And our old friend - LAW mandating loans to persons who did not meet traditional lending criteria. Spread the blame correctly. There's more than enough to go around. Thank you Frank.
This is a bit of a myth. The banks weren't forced to do anything. They did it because they thought it would be profitable and they were wrong, but they were never forced to loan to anyone. Bad policy WAS involved, but it's not a mandate for loans.
I guess all those laws mandating it were just figments of everyone's imagination. I guess all those times I had to fill out "race " by law even if they refused to do it were just figments of my imagination too. (well maybe, the job did indeed suck balls).
2011/11/15 19:38:25
Subject: Occupy Wall Street crowd evicted for nonpayment of rent
Frazzled wrote:
You think the economy is in the toilet because of housing?
I'm not following here? Why did you ask this?
Because thats only the housing bubble. If there weren't over speculation it wouldn't have been a bubble to begin with.
The fact we don't make anything has nothing to do with the housing crisis.
The fact China is a massive manufacturer has nothing to do with the housing crisis.
The fact Detroit is has nothing to do with the housing crisis.
The fact our steel industry is almost nonexistent has nothing to do with the housing crisis.
The fact, to buy US made union clothing you have to go on special websites has nothing to do with the housing crisis.
The fact you can’t find an electronic device outside of the military made in the USA has nothing to do with the housing crisis.
The fact that TVs, stereos, PDAs, computers, all are made in Asia has nothing to do with the housing crisis.
The crap related to Europe has nothing to do with the housing crisis.
2011/11/15 19:39:55
Subject: Occupy Wall Street crowd evicted for nonpayment of rent
Frazzled wrote:That and of course, the real reason.
Citi was on the edge of collapse. AIG and Lehman collapses effectively froze the secondary markets. If Citi went the international financial system would potentially have fallen. That was the argument anyway.
The bailouts for the other institutions was a cover.
Most o which was caused byyyyyyyyyy...
... our old friend, deregulation!
And our old friend - LAW mandating loans to persons who did not meet traditional lending criteria. Spread the blame correctly. There's more than enough to go around. Thank you Frank.
Common mistake, Frazzled. George W. Bush's nickname was "Dubya", not "Frank".
George Bush didn't put the pressure on Freddie/Fannie. Barney Frank did.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rented Tritium wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
I guess all those laws mandating it were just figments of everyone's imagination. I guess all those times I had to fill out "race " by law even if they refused to do it were just figments of my imagination too. (well maybe, the job did indeed suck balls).
Prove me wrong, find one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You'll find PLENTY that are encouraging crappy loans, but none "forcing" them. At the end of the day, a bank still had to look at the loan and decide if the person plus the government encouragements were enough to make it profitable.
Not saying it wasn't bad policy to encourage it, it was horrible policy, but the bank still had to make a risk analysis and pull the trigger. It's on them.
I mean unless you think the banks are so stupid they'd just give out loans without checking just because the government said it was cool, in which case that says a lot more bad things about the banks than obama.
The Fed was. Frank still is.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/15 19:41:07
2011/11/15 19:41:44
Subject: Occupy Wall Street crowd evicted for nonpayment of rent
Frazzled wrote:That and of course, the real reason.
Citi was on the edge of collapse. AIG and Lehman collapses effectively froze the secondary markets. If Citi went the international financial system would potentially have fallen. That was the argument anyway.
The bailouts for the other institutions was a cover.
Most o which was caused byyyyyyyyyy...
... our old friend, deregulation!
And our old friend - LAW mandating loans to persons who did not meet traditional lending criteria. Spread the blame correctly. There's more than enough to go around. Thank you Frank.
Common mistake, Frazzled. George W. Bush's nickname was "Dubya", not "Frank".
George Bush didn't put the pressure on Freddie/Fannie. Barney Frank did.
I didn't know that single members of the house of representatives had such amazing unstoppable power to force entire industries to do things against their will.
Surely, the communist revolution hid itself very well. I did not even notice.
You're right. Its all the evil Bankers fault. Once we exterminate them, er put them in camps, then Detroit will hum with manufacturing, HP will make computers in Alabama, and the economy will boom. Every man will have his correct portion of prosperity and freedom.
Nuts.
2011/11/15 19:51:15
Subject: Occupy Wall Street crowd evicted for nonpayment of rent
Melissia wrote:Considering the bankers were lobbying congress to do this very thing, I hardly find it surprising that the majority of the blame lay on bankers, as opposed to you whom seems to think they are completely blameless.
I didn't say that. I said there's more than enough blame to go around. You're putting it all on the bankers.
Yet banks are laying off too...
2011/11/15 20:00:44
Subject: Occupy Wall Street crowd evicted for nonpayment of rent
dsteingass wrote:I thought we were talking about the OWS protests and the tent-cities. I didn't even mention housing.
But since you mentioned it... The deregulation of the "banking industry" directly allowed the unchecked (unrestrained free, loose, rampant, unbounded, unbridled, uncurbed, unhampered, untamed, untrammeled, wild) greed of the banks. The housing crisis is a byproduct of the banking industry since mortgages (loans) were given to people who really couldn't afford them at high interest rates for the greedy purpose of collecting those interest dollars from those loans. It was an unsustainable short-term boom in business, with total disregard for the possible repercussions. It had no "insurance policy" just in case it failed (which it did). That is not opinion, that is fact.
There was never a "law" that banks HAD to provide those unsustainable loans, I'm not sure where that idea came from. the Banks did what they did because deregulation came in the form of payback from politicians who took the bank's campaign money.
So the Banks, in addition to being just like serial killers, are the only greedy parties here, and not the people trying to get the loasn in the first place. Gotcha
Again, please explain how this relates to over 9% unemployment?
2011/11/15 20:22:43
Subject: Occupy Wall Street crowd evicted for nonpayment of rent
dsteingass wrote:mortgages (loans) were given to people who really couldn't afford them at high interest rates for the greedy purpose of collecting those interest dollars from those loans.
That's not quite right.
What actually happened was one unit of a (now combined) bank would make a mortgage, then they'd package up a whole ton of them to sell as one unit. See when you take a bunch of individual investments and package them like that, the final product can be a lot more consistent. 1000 mortgages can provide a reasonable average return even though 50% of them lose money.
Well the thing is, the guys packaging it were selling them to the other half of their same bank. Since they were in the same company, the other half was just buying them without really checking things. They would just trust the self-reported rating.
Now if it had been ANOTHER BANK selling them, the buyer would be suspicious and dig into the product before dropping cash, but they trusted it because they were in the same company.
So fast forward a bit, the half making the mortgages sees the value of their packages increasing because the bubble is making them pretty profitable, so they start REALLY cranking them out. The buyer is like "oh man sweet, gotta get more of those sweet packages, they did GREAT last time" and this cycle is so strong that the guys making the mortgages stop checking so well. The ones they've done so far were SO AWESOME that it almost doesn't MATTER what they do, SOMEONE will buy the crap out of them.
So they continue like this until the bottom falls out and everyone is stuck sitting on these packages that have all lost HUGE megatons of value.
No single person in there was like "lets make crappy mortgages and get interest off poor people, hooray", it was a series of very small miscalculations stemming from the fact that there was no longer a wall between the guys making the mortgages and the guys buying the packages. If each one being bought had been fully researched (and it would have been if they were buying from another bank), they would not have paid as much for the packages and the market would have stayed rational.
So as you can see, dsteingass, it's a LOT more complicated than "banks greedy, make bad loan"
Don't forget the bundled mortgages, after warehousing, were then sold to other financial institutions, insurance companies, and investors (including you and me).
2011/11/15 20:36:27
Subject: Occupy Wall Street crowd evicted for nonpayment of rent
Frazzled wrote:
So the Banks, in addition to being just like serial killers, are the only greedy parties here, and not the people trying to get the loasn in the first place. Gotcha
Again, please explain how this relates to over 9% unemployment?
Are you even making an argument here? I didn't pipe in at all about serial killers or unemployment.
I wasn't posting to you DS.
2011/11/15 20:43:37
Subject: Occupy Wall Street crowd evicted for nonpayment of rent
Frazzled wrote:
So the Banks, in addition to being just like serial killers, are the only greedy parties here, and not the people trying to get the loasn in the first place. Gotcha
Again, please explain how this relates to over 9% unemployment?
Are you even making an argument here? I didn't pipe in at all about serial killers or unemployment.
Economics 101 teaches us that there are always unemployed, even in strong economic times. This is known as Structural Unemployment and always present due to inefficiencies inherent in labor markets including a mismatch between the supply and demand of laborers with necessary skill sets. 10% unemployment is considered part of the "normal" threshold at any given time. You are forgetting that the economy is Globalizing all the time. Looking at US Unemployment rates since 1945 doesn't apply to a 2011 economy, it is like comparing apples to oranges, literally. There is no stopping Globalization whether you like it or not.
Find the economist that thinks 10% unemployment is normal and I will show you an economist that needs to go back to stripping.
2011/11/17 12:24:57
Subject: Occupy Wall Street crowd evicted for nonpayment of rent
murdog wrote:Thats exactly the kind of post I'm talking about, halo. How can we have a conversation if that is what you believe this to be about? In your opinion, the people there are all whining communists, nazis, drug addicts and cop-haters who run anti-military websites and are getting paid to protest? Yikes! Where do you get your information? Please show me where to find out about all the cop-beating college kids.
And sorry to burst your bubble, but they do represent you, you just don't realize it. Unless of course you are part of the one percent that control most of the wealth and power in the world, and then, would you really be posting on Dakka Dakka?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yet another post hoping for violence... what's up with that?
No those pieces of filth don't represent me. Statements like that just make me hate them. I represent me, not vermin who forgot how to bathe.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
d-usa wrote:
Rented Tritium wrote:
d-usa wrote:So you might call me paranoid, but I fully believe that the police department in these cities coordinated a mass raid against #occupy in order to dilute the negative impact these actions would have.
Ignore list achieved
Behold the power of having your world view challenged
Not quite Zippy. What are you fifteen? If it was coordinated, it would have been coordinated. There are other cities in the US besides NY and Oakland. Pro-tip, read a ing map.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/17 12:27:44
2011/11/17 13:35:31
Subject: Occupy Wall Street crowd evicted for nonpayment of rent
So what you're saying is that, in spite of press showing them to be crackpots and reporting on only the fringe of the group, OWS's approval rating is still somehow only over three times that of congress? Perhaps we should demand OWS for congress.
Bragging they have higher approval than Congress is like saying they have higher approval than a gang of criminals, but I repeat myself.
2011/11/17 16:01:06
Subject: Occupy Wall Street crowd evicted for nonpayment of rent
God I can't wait for old age to mercifully bring the last baby boomer down. Finally we might be able to get something done around here. I mean the greatest generation gave us a whole new generation of money grubbers set to bleed the system dry. All in an effort to willfully vote against their own self intrest cause someday they too may be "rich".
As always class act frazmataz
You think I'm a baby boomer?
2011/11/17 18:04:06
Subject: Re:Occupy Wall Street crowd evicted for nonpayment of rent
Actually I could kind of see that too. To be fair, you do perpetuate the belief that you were old.
Prior to this comment, I kind of just pictured you being some infirm guy in nursing home somewhere, convinced that "the War" never ended.
You're making it worse when you think baby boomers are old.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rented Tritium wrote:
Easy E wrote:
Here's the problem with picking three key issues and sticking with them. Then, you are no longer a cipher, a big tent with all things for all people.
Problem?
No dude, that's the GOAL. NOTHING hurts a protest more than being a vague conglomerate of random anger. You DO NOT WANT to be a big tent.
Easy E wrote:
Secondly, once you have 3 key points, everybody has an easy ability to attack you. By simply having an anti-corruption theme, you keep a wide tent and keep the focus on corruption instead of constantly defending your position. Is anyone really out there Pro-corruption?
What? No that's ridiculous. You need to stand your ground and talk about your position. What you are basically saying is "but when we choose one thing, we can't be evasive about our positions anymore :( "
Complaining that you don't want to actually have a public position because people will attack it makes it sound like you KNOW your position is wrong.
This stuff is like protesting 101.
Indeed, if you can't pick a few key points, then you're just a street festival. An angry, smelly street festival.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/17 18:07:24
2011/11/17 18:36:08
Subject: Occupy Wall Street crowd evicted for nonpayment of rent
If you don't know what OWS stands for now, you are willfully being ignorant or stupid.
***Enlighten us progs, what do they stand for?
think you all know exactly what the issue is, but you are actually okay with the current system because it benefits you.
***Its just that angry college kids who don't bathe don't inspire me to do anything except demand they shut up or get a job.
Fine, and I can understand that. You have a vested interest in things staying the way they are now. Cool. I should too, but I'm just stupid and empathetic.
***No, OWS just never expressed a clear point other than Bankers ...EEEEEEEEEEEEEEVVVVVVVVVVVVVVIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL! and something about tents.
The first two steps of change management (101 if you will ) are to generate insight and inspire commitment. That's where OWS is now. You don't jump to building the plan until you have completed the first two steps of change. That's the stage OWS is still in.
***Good luck with that. Ancient Buddha say if you don't bathe they won't follow you.
They have provided insight to people who follow political issues,
***No they haven't. They're aq polyglot of causes. Its like going to a combination of mazi/commie/militia/hippy free love convention. That aint inspiring. that aint .
has nothing to do with the housing crisis.
