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Everyone seems to think that the IG are just meat shields for space marines. The IG win a large majority of the Imperium's battles. Space Marines are not numerious enough to deploy anywhere and everywhere. Not to mention that the IG are the bravest soilders in 40k, they go fight swarms of monsters and aliens in a fatigue and armor that coveres 20% of their body. Their not called the hammer of the Emporer because they never win a fight!

...Ok.

So what prompted this?

Oh man all i see is comments about how they just get mulched by everyone!

I believe you're referring to the pdf forces which are a meme now. Different than imperial guard which a lot of people always seem to "respect" So I don't know what you're talking about with imperial guard.

who'se pdf? now i don't know what you're talking about! lmfao!

Hes talking about the Planetary Defense Force. Basically each planet has a pdf its just like a militia of men/women, poorly armed and yes they do tend to get slaughtered

The thing is...Guardsmen do die in droves. There billions upon billions of them. The Imperial Guard pretty much pounds their enemies into the ground with innumerable men and lots and lots of armor.

They are not meat shields for the SM, they are just meat shields in general.

forruner_mercy wrote:The thing is...Guardsmen do die in droves. There billions upon billions of them. The Imperial Guard pretty much pounds their enemies into the ground with innumerable men and lots and lots of armor.

They are not meat shields for the SM, they are just meat shields in general.

My IG friend put it best as to why the IG die in droves.

The only reason the IG has infantry is so they have something to block incoming fire from hitting the tanks.

Well, they are not exactly very brave, you see. On most worlds, they are recruited with Imperial propaganda about how inferior and weak their enemies are. Many are lured in by the trill and the thought of superiority.

And when the dark truth finally unfolds, there is that scary guy with a black cape who will shoot your head off if you refuse to fight. Many Guardsmen do not live to see fighting more than a couple of hours.

However, there are some exceptional regiments, like the Mordian Iron Guard or the Death Korps of Krieg who are so fanatic that they never even retreat.

As forruner_mercy said, they are meatshields in general. And I respect Guardsmen. I am a Guard player myself. But the Space Marines are the ones who win wars. Wars like Armageddon, Tarsis and Ichar. Usually it is the Guard who is whining that the Marines are taking all the glory. In truth, does it even matter? They are fighting for the Imperium, not for personal bravado. "War is not about glory, war is about victory."

Space Marines are the tip of the spear of the Imperium, whereas the Imperial Guard is the spear itself pushing through the enemy with unrelenting onslaught. Without the tip, the spear is useless. Without the pushing force of the spear, the tip is useless.

Space Marines wish they won as many battles as the Imperial Guard.

If they did, the Imperium wouldn't be losing territory.

But usually they are too busy supporting the Guard to win battles by themselves.

Besides, they are too few in number to win battles in the scale Guard does. And they win more often than the Imperial Guard.

King Crow wrote:Oh man all i see is comments about how they just get mulched by everyone!

Because people don't know the meaning of the words "professional solders" and "creatures with strength 10x bigger then average Human".
And regarding the losses, if you closely see the engagements in WW1, WW2 etc. You will see that losses were always high for both sides. The difference is Modern Warfare because Western allies have better tech. And better tech = less casualties.
Guard is quite capable armed force of the Imperium, they die in great numbers because they are stretch across thousands of planets. And they face enemies who are much more stronger or numerous then Humans - and they still beat them.
People also think that Commissars just shot men for fun and that Guardsman weapons are as strong as arrow compared to M16. You get the idea of how much people know about military life.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:Space Marines wish they won as many battles as the Imperial Guard.

If they did, the Imperium wouldn't be losing territory.

Space Marines also wish to be as numerous as Imperial Guard

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:But usually they are too busy supporting the Guard to win battles by themselves.

As it should be. The Guard is the army of the Imperium. The Space Marines are finicky (in the best of times) allies.

Bury your enemies under a sea of high explosive ordnance, it's the only way to be sure.

I agree that most regiments are top class and win many battles. But then there are some unfortunates, like the Valhallans with their Chenov who lights his cigarettes using his own men.

And they beat the enemy by numbers. The effectivity of a lasgun is crap against non-humans, like the Nids, whose carapace is too thick or the Orks who are too muscular and senseless to fall easily. That's why they shoot in massive volleys, like in 1700's. one lasgun can barely scratch an enemy's skin, while ten of them are deadly.

And it depends on commissars. Some actually try to inspire their men with heroic acts, while others "uphold" the morale simply by waving their bolt pistols and yelling that if the men do not fight, he will kill them personally."

Chenkov is just a villain sue made to make people who thought "omg guard should throw waves of men at the enemies!" more complacent.

In any half-decent story, he'd have suffered an unfortunate accident like getting hit by an ork sniper twenty miles from the front lines. But since codices don't have real, in-depth stories, they don't have to have anyone with a complex, interesting, or realistic (in-universe) backstory.

Brother Coa wrote:

King Crow wrote:Oh man all i see is comments about how they just get mulched by everyone!

Because people don't know the meaning of the words "professional solders" and "creatures with strength 10x bigger then average Human".
And regarding the losses, if you closely see the engagements in WW1, WW2 etc. You will see that losses were always high for both sides. The difference is Modern Warfare because Western allies have better tech. And better tech = less casualties.

The training helps a bit too, though I'd hesitate to say the western powers (America really at this stage) have actually properly won a war in a while. The problem with this analogy is that in a lot of cases the Guard are the inferior, poorly equipped and poorly trained side in a war and are more analogous to early WW2 Red Army (before their troops started becoming ridiculously experienced and capable soldiers). Tau, Necrons, Eldar (of both varieties), the Traitor Legions all have much better technology and are more capable soldiers than the Guard man to man. The Guard win by liberal application of cannon fodder and high explosive ordnance in such situations. Orks are probably the only ones less professional than guardsman in war, but they make up for it by being the size of six guardsman. Tyranids outnumber them, have a greater degree of control and professionalism (yay for Hive Mind) plus the lolhuge monstrous creatures and in general beat the guard in everything save for ordnance and firepower.

It's a sad fact that the Guardsmen do die in droves, and are largely portrayed as incompetents not fit for much else than to die until the Space Marines show up. But it's not their fault when you see the hand they're dealt. Crappy equipment, donkey-cave commanders and enemies which would make any sane man commit seppuku. I have immense respect for the Guard, because in a galaxy where ten foot robot skeletons and thirty foot bugs are the norm, they take to the field with flashlights and paper armour, and despite all that are the backbone of the Imperium. I have no doubt that if the IG mysteriously vanished, the Imperium would fold in about a week.

o/ To the heroes of the Imperial Guard.

But still it shows that people like him exist.

It isn't called grimdark for nothing.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:But still it shows that people like him exist.

It isn't called grimdark for nothing.

It's grimdark enough that people like him don't live very long without massive amounts of plot armor.

Throughout history, cruel, unpopular and hated officers do not live long on a battlefield. Because there is often so much happening at once, and from primary & secondary sources I've seen regarding c19 warfare, it's damned confusing and no-one knows quite whats going on.
Therefore it's very easy to have an accident with a frag grenade or a lasgun and who'd know who did it? Just another officer who fell to enemy fire, so let's avenge him lads!

Chenkov does only survive because as Melissia said, he's wrapped up in plot armour & there to placate the people who desperatly want to think that the Guard just throw bodies at the enemy all the time.

As to the Guard in general, I think they're the most 'badass' army in the WH 40,000 universe. They seriously are. Many deride them for having 'flashlights' and 'paper armour', but that they take to the field and actually make a stand despite facing nasty gribbly things that would give you eternal nightmares and even win is astounding.

Yes within the Guard there are Regiments such as the DKoK and Iron Guard who don't understand the meaning, concept or even how to spell the word 'Retreat', but aside from them that most of the Guard stay on the battlefield is phenomenal and underlines why I love the Guard so much.

Melissia wrote:Space Marines wish they won as many battles as the Imperial Guard.

If they did, the Imperium wouldn't be losing territory.

Quote of the day for me. Thank'ee for posting it

The Imperial Guard is the galaxy primer professional army. They have rifles that can blow off a mans arm, can be recharged in a wall outlet. Armor that can stop a .50cal round, and be light enough to move in. However, when stacked against the vile xenos, and glory boy space marines, it only makes the weapons and armor weak.

The guard has the best tanks, the best apc, and the best artillery. They have over 40000 years of warfare to draw from. Their big book of war makes the codex astrades look like a pamplet. It is the men and women of the Guard who stand against the dark, protecting mankind. Day in and day out.

For those who actually read the fluff, the guard is more then capible of winning wars, seeing as 99% of the battles only have ig.

Melissia wrote:Chenkov is just a villain sue made to make people who thought "omg guard should throw waves of men at the enemies!" more complacent.

In any half-decent story, he'd have suffered an unfortunate accident like getting hit by an ork sniper twenty miles from the front lines. But since codices don't have real, in-depth stories, they don't have to have anyone with a complex, interesting, or realistic (in-universe) backstory.

Soviet commanders used exactly Chenkov's sort of attrition strategy during World War II. I know it's not a half-decent story, but it'll have to do.

Actually it's not just light enough to move in. A pair of flak boots, paired gauntlets/bracers, paired pauldrons, helmet, greaves, and breast/backplate are lighter than a modern body armor's vest alone, despite being arguably more effective.

Some guard regiments (Catachan) wear less of this (a light flak jacket or flak shirt, basically) which provides less protection but is almost as light as basic clothing, others wear lighter versions which cover the same amount (the flak longcoats of the DKoK for example) but with less rigid surfaces than the standard allowing more mobility.

These regiments are very mobile and flexible, but give up some protection for the lack of coverage or the lack of hardened plates of flak armor. It's still generally better than modern armor and most assuredly quite a bit lighter.

Seaward wrote:

Melissia wrote:Chenkov is just a villain sue made to make people who thought "omg guard should throw waves of men at the enemies!" more complacent.

In any half-decent story, he'd have suffered an unfortunate accident like getting hit by an ork sniper twenty miles from the front lines. But since codices don't have real, in-depth stories, they don't have to have anyone with a complex, interesting, or realistic (in-universe) backstory.

Soviet commanders used exactly Chenkov's sort of attrition strategy during World War II. I know it's not a half-decent story, but it'll have to do.

Only in the beginning. Towards the later years of WW2, the Red Army and its officers were actually quite capable soldiers and tacticians with a lot of experience behind them. They still lost a lot of men in battle, but that was more due to the skill of the German Army more than "Send in the next wave" type things. Most of the tales of "Not one step backward" either came from Stalingrad or are overblown.

While I doubt Chenkov's survival is entirely reliant on plot armour (he does have his own command platoon to look after him after all), he's still a questionable commander which is probably not well liked amongst his men.

Its not that the ig are bad, its just that the really interesting battles all require the SM to come in because there are thousands of demon/heretics/bugsbugsbugs raining down on a world

Dytalus wrote:Soviet commanders used exactly Chenkov's sort of attrition strategy during World War II. I know it's not a half-decent story, but it'll have to do.

Yes, and the officers enforcing that strategy put themselves at risk in doing so, and only did so for a few years, not for decades and decades.

Not to mention, the Imperial Guard lore is littered with references of officers or commissars killed by their own men for being overzealous. It's an unspoken check in the balance of power-- nobody likes a stupid, incompetent officer to stay in power for too logn. It also adds to the grimdarkness too, because it makes the officers themselves even more paranoid.

Melissia wrote:

Dytalus wrote:Soviet commanders used exactly Chenkov's sort of attrition strategy during World War II. I know it's not a half-decent story, but it'll have to do.

Yes, and the officers enforcing that strategy put themselves at risk in doing so, and only did so for a few years, not for decades and decades.

Not to mention, the Imperial Guard lore is littered with references of officers or commissars killed by their own men for being overzealous. It's an unspoken check in the balance of power-- nobody likes a stupid, incompetent officer to stay in power for too logn. It also adds to the grimdarkness too, because it makes the officers themselves even more paranoid.

A few years or a few decades; it's pretty irrelevant for the guys who were actually serving under said officers, and being utilized to make the system work. And the system did work.

Incidentally, if the Imperial Guard lore is "littered" with references to officers or commissars being killed by their own men - and I can come up with a grand total of about five - it's also littered with incidences of stupid, incompetent officers - usually generals - staying in power for quite a while. The Imperial method of standard warfare is a long, slow grind. Manpower is the most abundant resource in the Imperium. Let's not pretend that every regiment is Cadian, as it's just not true. Commissars wouldn't be necessary if officers didn't frequently waste their men's lives.

I think you made a mistake with your quote tags there.

Yeah, the IG don't get enough but besides who's got da Baneblade?

imo around here the IG seems to be overrated if anything. People try to paint it as an elite force where everyone is a Kasrkin and even the most lowly Guardsman can go toe to toe with an Aspect Warrior and as a Guardsmen with a Lasgun is better at long range then a Firewarrior with a Pulse Rifle.

I think it's a reflection of the IG's dominance on tabletop if anything, the fluff clearly dictates that the Imperial Guard is a massive human tide that relies on weight of numbers and supporting firepower such as tanks/artillery and that while the individual Guardsmen is often brave and courageous, he's usually in over his head.

Harriticus wrote:imo around here the IG seems to be overrated if anything. People try to paint it as an elite force where everyone is a Kasrkin

No, they don't.

and even the most lowly Guardsman can go toe to toe with an Aspect Warrior

Aspect Warriors != Guardians. Guardsmen can go toe to toe with Guardians and beat the pants off them in many cases.

and as a Guardsmen with a Lasgun is better at long range then a Firewarrior with a Pulse Rifle.

A Guardsman with a Lasgun is better at long range than a Fire Warrior with a Pulse Rifle in many cases. The Pulse Rifle doesn't allow for volume fire, but rather relies upon volley fire.

I think it's a reflection of the IG's dominance on tabletop if anything, the fluff clearly dictates that the Imperial Guard is a massive human tide that relies on weight of numbers and supporting firepower such as tanks/artillery and that while the individual Guardsmen is often brave and courageous, he's usually in over his head.

It's a "massive human tide" that relies on weight of numbers primarily when dealing with foes which are going to give any force problems.