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Can they work

i know that they do not work that well in the 5 man but does anyone think they can work in a ten man squad and if so what loadout what they would need to succeed

they are for nilla marines

Are you talking about for the Space Marine book or Blood Angels?

I've seen assault marine squads work well in codex marine lists. Just gotta take a jump librarian with them, so he can lay down avenger templates!

sorry about that It is for nilla marines

and wouldnt a chaplain be better than a librarian or is it basically the same plus i run a flamer in my current 5 man squad and i am going to buy another with christmas

Their ok

They are a fast attack and not troops, so you can't score with them
They also do not have access to FNP, which is a big perk BA have

Basically if you want to mass assault marines play BA. It does not matter if your models are painted blue or red, it's just the codex your using to play your army

I am currently using an army made from all my leftover stuff from SM and CSM that I don't use for either of them, using the vanilla codex. I have a 10 man assault squad, no upgrades aside from a thunder hammer on the sarge and led by a jump pack librarian with Force Dome and the Avenger.

Played two games yesterday, one against BA and one against GK, first time using assault marines for C:SM. Against the BA, my assault squad was down to 7 marines including the sarge plus the librarian on one wound after getting accross the board. I assaulted 5 BA assault marines led by a sang priest with LC. Avenger killed one marine after FNP saves had been taken, 6 bolt pistols killed none and in the combat the librarian wiffed his attacks and was killed by the priest,one more of my ass. marines died to normal attacks and my normal attacks did nothing (after PA saves and FNP), only my sarge saved the combat by flattening 3 BA assault marines with his hammer. the BA pass their leadership and hold, then assault in another priest and an assault sarge with a PF. Needless to say I didn't kill any, he killed three and my guys ran for the hills.

In the game against GK I had a full squad, the librarian on 2 wounds and cast the Force Dome as I had to assault a unit of 5 GK termies off an objective and avenger would probably have done nothing. GK went first due to halberds (librarian failed to stop hammerhand) and insta gibbed my librarian and killed four assault marines - i failed all five 5++ inv grr, he passed 2 armour saves, my hammer wounded two GK but he passed both his inv saves obv. Assault marines leg it again.

I actually tabled the BA player - lost against the GK though boo - but in both games the assault squad was the most useless unit of the game for me. Bad luck with saves may have had some say in it, but still, they just suck a bit for vanilla marines. Maybe a chaplian would be better for them than a Librarian, and I know against any other marines other than BA or terminators the Avenger should roast a few to even the odds, but they are a bit underwhelming. I'm gonna persevere with them for a few more games, but they may be put back on the shelf sooner rather than later

Here's a link to my tactics for vanilla assault marines (in a Shrike army).

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Ravenguard_Shrike#Tactical_Notes

Since the release of the BA and GK codexes, I've put my assault marines on the shelf. Caranthir's description of the problem sums it up--guys who depend on their 3+ saves to keep them alive and on str4 non-PW attacks to kill the enemies can't compete with blood angels (FNP) and grey knights (all power weapons). They struggle against space wolves too. 10 guys or 5 guys, doesn't make a difference.

They worked okay a year ago, but since then they've been outclassed by the three most popular armies in the game.

should i just table my assault marines then

I actually like them. Although saying that Guard and the old Lost and the Damned Codex are my major enemies. I run them 10 man, PF on sarge, and a flamer. About 230 points which is a little pricey but more than capable of pulling their points. Then again I'm fairly biased. Assault marine models are just so good they always make it into my army. I do agree with what's been said though, the lack of a FNP giving character does hurt vanilla assaults, if your heart is set on having an army of them as opposed to 1 squad of counter punch, then go BA.

Just don't charge things that outclass you in combat. All the above examples are against elite assault armies. Pick and choose your battles and use them to support other units. I would think twice about charging your ten man tactical squad knowing you have 10 assault marines within 18" for example.

Here are the things Blood Angels Assault Marines get that C:SM Assault Marines don't:

1. Troops choice, not Fast Attack
2. Access to Feel No Pain
3. Easy access to Furious Charge
4. Can take Meltaguns and Plasmaguns
5. Can take Infernus Pistols and Hand Flamers (Only really useful on Sergeants, given #4)
6. Descent of Angels special rule

Here are the things C:SM Assault Marines get that Blood Angels don't:

1. Combat Tactics

It's a pretty stark comparison, isn't it?

MrEconomics wrote:Here are the things Blood Angels Assault Marines get that C:SM Assault Marines don't:

1. Troops choice, not Fast Attack
2. Access to Feel No Pain
3. Easy access to Furious Charge
4. Can take Meltaguns and Plasmaguns
5. Can take Infernus Pistols and Hand Flamers (Only really useful on Sergeants, given #4)
6. Descent of Angels special rule

Here are the things C:SM Assault Marines get that Blood Angels don't:

1. Combat Tactics

It's a pretty stark comparison, isn't it?

This.....

The bottom line is there are generally better choices for FA in the C:SM codex. If you want to use assault marines, you should seriously consider going BA.

can i fit a chaplain in with this squad could that make them a bigger threat and just reck havoc on the board

The chaplain is a nice force multiplier as you get to re-roll any misses on your to hit dice.I have a couple with JP myself,one with just BP + PW,the other is PF + PW.

Depending on what job i have in mind for the assault marines determines what chaplain i give them and the load out on the sarge as well.

What do you think about 1 or 2 plasma pistols in the squad ?

i personally like a flamer as the special unit so 1 flamer and a pp

It will do well, but it won't wreck face.

Have you considered assault termies? Those wreck face and the body to match

well i like the fluff behind them and I already have 5 assault marines so I rather build those up than to just table em

Whoever is telling you to table assault marines because of grey knights and BA should stuff it.

Put a captain with lighting claws, jump pack, and artificer armor and a 10 man assault squad with two plasma pistols and a sarge with lighting claws.

Another squad could be a librarian with jump pack, plasma pistol, and epist w/might and quickening. Pair that with the same assault squad.

The librarian combo looks to best IMO. Force weapon to kill off any HQ/Characters, I10 and Strength boost to boot, can negate psy attacks as well. Could also get rid of the quickening and substitute the cover save power for your troops.

Of course if I was playing SM I'd be rocking Marneus, with 30 relic blade honor guard in rhinos. (My idea of an assault army)


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Ignore EVERYTHING in the last post, forget the damn normal assault marines.

Vanguard vets with jump packs???? Holy cow. Pair a squad of 10 with lightning claws and a librarian with Strength of the ancients and Force dome. (Epistolary and jump pack of course)

JEEEEZ, that looks like a hell of alot of fun.

sfshilo wrote:Whoever is telling you to table assault marines because of grey knights and BA should stuff it.

Put a captain with lighting claws, jump pack, and artificer armor and a 10 man assault squad with two plasma pistols and a sarge with lighting claws.

Another squad could be a librarian with jump pack, plasma pistol, and epist w/might and quickening. Pair that with the same assault squad.

The librarian combo looks to best IMO. Force weapon to kill off any HQ/Characters, I10 and Strength boost to boot, can negate psy attacks as well. Could also get rid of the quickening and substitute the cover save power for your troops.

Of course if I was playing SM I'd be rocking Marneus, with 30 relic blade honor guard in rhinos. (My idea of an assault army)


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Ignore EVERYTHING in the last post, forget the damn normal assault marines.

Vanguard vets with jump packs???? Holy cow. Pair a squad of 10 with lightning claws and a librarian with Strength of the ancients and Force dome. (Epistolary and jump pack of course)

JEEEEZ, that looks like a hell of alot of fun.

i'm not sure if your trolling or not. This is a horrible idea.

sfshilo wrote:....

Of course if I was playing SM I'd be rocking Marneus, with 30 relic blade honor guard in rhinos. (My idea of an assault army)
...

.

This combo is 2065 points when taking Marneus in PA and 2 units of 5 squads with bolters. Can you say over-priced?

What are the benefits of putting a libby with a full assault squad?

DiRTWaL wrote:What are the benefits of putting a libby with a full assault squad?

Librarians are force multipliers. Depending on power selection, your librarian can make your Assault Squad more survivable (Force Dome), more effective at flaming multiple unit types (Avenger), and pack a slightly better punch in assault (Might of the Ancients). The base issue doesn't really change, though - Assault Squads still aren't very effective, and the boost provided by a librarian would be more pronounced with a better squad (like Assault Termies).

At the end of the day though, Assault Marines have a different role than Assault Terminators. Terminators are meant to take on the toughest enemy CC units and win, whereas Assault Marines really shine while beating up your opponent's vulnerable backline units. For that role, a librarian is pretty superfluous, as the Assault Marines should already be stronger than their opponents. So to answer your question, there are benefits to putting a librarian with a full assault squad, but they're pretty minor and would be better employed elsewhere.

If I were to run Assault Marines (I don't anymore), and if I were to include a character with them (not likely), I'd run a bare-bones Chaplain with jump pack. Chaplains get the JP cheaper (not sure why), and provide a bonus to the whole squad on the turn they charge, which the Librarian can't do.


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Horst wrote:i'm not sure if your trolling or not. This is a horrible idea.

Seconded. Ignore everything that guy said, unless you like fielding awesomely cool uber-units that actually suck and get wiped off the board.

Also, that's why everyone keeps talking about Assault Terminators. They get all the badass stuff (2+ armor, choice of the two best CC loadouts in the codex) without having to pay an arm and a leg for the option of doing so like all the other C:SM assault units.

The fact is, codex marines have zero useful HQ's, unless your using special characters.

A jump librarian is good, if only to support assault terminators (by staying at ~18" away from the combat, eating into weak nearby units).

Horst wrote:The fact is, codex marines have zero useful HQ's, unless your using special characters.

A jump librarian is good, if only to support assault terminators (by staying at ~18" away from the combat, eating into weak nearby units).

I wouldn't go that far. Librarians are useful, particularly in certain match-ups. My preferred loadout is TDA/ss, nullzone/avenger, in a LR with 5 th/ss termies. He'd be more cost effective without Terminator armor, but then he'd never want to poke his head out of the LR, and would be more vulnerable to Perils (which I have a knack for rolling). He really helps the Termies against their prime targets (tough guys with Invulnerable saves), and doesn't need to leave the LR to do it. Late game, he can flame or assault small squads of objective holders, even MEQ, and generally be an annoyance.

Then again, two of my more common opponents are Fatecrusher daemons (where Null Zone is a lifesaver) and Vulkan marines (again, Null Zone gives my Assault Termies the edge against his Assault Termies, even with his MC thunder hammers).

I've never run a jump librarian, but I wouldn't even think of running him by himself to support a squad of Assault Termies - too vulnerable and easily picked off, despite the ability to hide behind terrain. That seems like a waste of points to me, at least in theory.

Roboute wrote:

Horst wrote:The fact is, codex marines have zero useful HQ's, unless your using special characters.

A jump librarian is good, if only to support assault terminators (by staying at ~18" away from the combat, eating into weak nearby units).

I wouldn't go that far. Librarians are useful, particularly in certain match-ups. My preferred loadout is TDA/ss, nullzone/avenger, in a LR with 5 th/ss termies. He'd be more cost effective without Terminator armor, but then he'd never want to poke his head out of the LR, and would be more vulnerable to Perils (which I have a knack for rolling). He really helps the Termies against their prime targets (tough guys with Invulnerable saves), and doesn't need to leave the LR to do it. Late game, he can flame or assault small squads of objective holders, even MEQ, and generally be an annoyance.

Then again, two of my more common opponents are Fatecrusher daemons (where Null Zone is a lifesaver) and Vulkan marines (again, Null Zone gives my Assault Termies the edge against his Assault Termies, even with his MC thunder hammers).

I've never run a jump librarian, but I wouldn't even think of running him by himself to support a squad of Assault Termies - too vulnerable and easily picked off, despite the ability to hide behind terrain. That seems like a waste of points to me, at least in theory.

of course its silly to waste points letting him run by himself... I normally give him an escort of 10 assault marines rocking flamers and a thunderhammer on sarge. Performs moderately well, and can take down a LOT of MEQ units, especially with avenger as the second power.

Horst wrote:The fact is, codex marines have zero useful HQ's, unless your using special characters.

A jump librarian is good, if only to support assault terminators (by staying at ~18" away from the combat, eating into weak nearby units).

Uh, what? Sure chaplains suck hard (too expensive for a minor unit buff and not so great CC ability). Captains are just usually beatsticks (unless on bike, where they unlock bike troops or if you have a need for a command squad) and chapter masters are a joke. But the librarian is amazing, easily one of the best default non special HQ choices in the game. This is almost solely because of the cheapish price and the power of null zone. You get 2 powers with vanilla libbys. One that you like which can be anything really, and if the other one isn't nullzone you are probably doing it wrong.

I've personally never even thought of using a jump librarian. This is mostly because there is little to no incentive to run other jump units in a vanilla list. Vanguard are an over priced super unit that dies like any other marine, and assault marines are nonscoring units that take up valuable utility in the FA slot and soak up more points than they translate to in battlefield effectiveness. If you look at their offensive potential they compare to the ork boy, which is hardly a good place to be when you consider the price difference. The durability of 3+ armor is nice (as usual) but should your assault unit have most of its cost tied up into defensive ability?

The only time I've had any luck with assault marines is as 5 man flamer delivery units. Considering they aren't any faster than rhino bound units for this purpose I gave up trying to make the unit work and sold them to a BA player (Luckily I had only primed them and hadn't actually fully painted them yet)

Horst wrote:of course its silly to waste points letting him run by himself... I normally give him an escort of 10 assault marines rocking flamers and a thunderhammer on sarge. Performs moderately well, and can take down a LOT of MEQ units, especially with avenger as the second power.

That makes a lot more sense. That's one of the most sensible ways to run assault marines I can really think of.

chappies suck hard...

captains are overcosted by a HUGE margin, especially given that they are not immune to instant death.

librarians are nice and all, but null zone requires a LOT of factors for you to take advantage of it, almost enough to make it not worth it.

The fact is, librarians are only situationally good, and in a lot of situations they are a waste of points. Unlike space wolf unlimited range autocannon god-shooting, codex marine librarians kinda suck for their points. They are useless in hand to hand unless against basic troops, and their powers aren't great.

I've had the best luck fielding the librarian with the jump squad, because of the extra points you pay for that defense the marine has over an ork boy, and the mobility. The ability to just get your librarian into position to deliver those critical avenger shots makes him worthwhile. Avenger is one of the few librarian powers useful against every single enemy race, and with a jump pack, the librarian shines.

Consider that a librarian in an assault marine squad rocking 2x flamers can fire down 3 templates, THEN charge, means they can take on some very, very nasty things. Sure, they may not be the best... but they are quite good, and because of the jump packs, they are a great reactionary unit in a MEQ army. You just leave em behind your army, when your opponent gets too close, focus on a transport, pop it, jump the librarian into position, flame the hell out of them, and then charge their weakened remains.

Null zone is great, but really... its very situational.


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Roboute wrote:

Horst wrote:of course its silly to waste points letting him run by himself... I normally give him an escort of 10 assault marines rocking flamers and a thunderhammer on sarge. Performs moderately well, and can take down a LOT of MEQ units, especially with avenger as the second power.

That makes a lot more sense. That's one of the most sensible ways to run assault marines I can really think of.

I honestly wouldn't even consider running assault marines without a jump librarian... they don't do enough by themselves.

notabot187 wrote:I've personally never even thought of using a jump librarian. This is mostly because there is little to no incentive to run other jump units in a vanilla list. Vanguard are an over priced super unit that dies like any other marine, and assault marines are nonscoring units that take up valuable utility in the FA slot and soak up more points than they translate to in battlefield effectiveness. If you look at their offensive potential they compare to the ork boy, which is hardly a good place to be when you consider the price difference. The durability of 3+ armor is nice (as usual) but should your assault unit have most of its cost tied up into defensive ability?

While I agree that assault marines will never "wow" anyone, this critique seems a bit harsh. Their cost is tied up in mobility as well as defensive ability - yes, Rhinos move 12" too, but the occupants can't assault afterwards. And yes, they aren't much better than an ork boy in assault, but wouldn't you be worried about a unit of boyz with 3+ armor saves assaulting your devastators/long fangs/lootas? They have the mobility to reach targets who won't give them much trouble in assault, and the durability to survive until they get there.

Dang, I've almost convinced myself to run assault marines again. I think at the end of the day their downfall is that the role they perform in a C:SM army isn't vital enough to warrant the points you spend on them.


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Horst wrote:Null zone is great, but really... its very situational.

To me, it's a way to ensure the effectiveness of your hammer unit. If the enemy doesn't have Invulnerable saves, your termies are going to wreck face, and if they do have invuln saves, Null Zone ensures they wreck face anways. Its more situational uses are improving low-AP fire against tough units and causing Daemon players to cry themselves to sleep at night. Also, as you've already pointed out, all the other Space Marine HQ's are next to useless, and if you're already paying the points for a situationally useful HQ, why not take the powers with the most situational effectiveness? The best part is, I've still got that AP3 flamer, but with an even greater effective range (12" LR move, disembark + base size).

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Roboute wrote:

Horst wrote:of course its silly to waste points letting him run by himself... I normally give him an escort of 10 assault marines rocking flamers and a thunderhammer on sarge. Performs moderately well, and can take down a LOT of MEQ units, especially with avenger as the second power.

That makes a lot more sense. That's one of the most sensible ways to run assault marines I can really think of.

I honestly wouldn't even consider running assault marines without a jump librarian... they don't do enough by themselves.

You know, if I ever do end up running assault marines again, I think I'll try running a librarian with them. It sounds fairly effective, especially since the librarian can still support the th/ss termies.

Thanks for the ideas, any other suggestions?