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discuss...

First, for those of us who don't know, please define "comping"...:/

It's the kind of tournament restrictions put on armies to help players who haven't learned to play yet.

So, it's short for "compensation"?

Surely, if you enter a tournament, you have to take the rough with the smooth?

Son_Of _Deddog wrote:First, for those of us who don't know, please define "comping"...:/

Comp is a system by which the more extreme combos are reigned in to make the game more of a level playing field - eg no special characters, no double A-Bombs or Hydras, no more than 12 dice per magic phase etc...

Deathfisting, Double Iblaster and Trip Mournfang

Hellheart, 2 IB, lots of mournfang.

That's about all I can think of.

Oh, and print out Jervis' tearful RAI speech about casters not wearing armor.

NE USA tournaments are still getting a handle on the ogres, currently the only restrictions involve the hellheart. I don't feel blasters need comping, you can only take two anyway, and is deathfisting that bad? You are stuck with Death magic if you go that route ... Here's a shot:

1. Either hellheart or dispel scroll per army, not both
2. Mournfangs 0-2
3. Death wizard may not take Greedy Fist

And I'd say that about does it for me. The hellheart deal is how the Conflict GT is approaching it, seems decent to me, rather than outright ban one of the few usable items in the book.

HoverBoy wrote:It's the kind of tournament restrictions put on armies to help players who haven't learned to play yet.

They're put in play because of how GW approaches armybook 'design' and how warhammer fantasy is not actually intended for competitive play, yet many of us like to get together and play a series of interrelated games that culminate in a final ranking of players determined through a range of factors, inevitably including in-game performance. Which given the overwhelming importance of luck involved with 8th edition is increasingly deranged (but again inevitable).

- Salvage

I think there's 2 questions here. Making tournament-friendly OK and noob-friendly. Hellheart I think is the big one.

The rest is more noob-friendly. Limiting Mournfangs. I still don't know about 2 IB. They're kind of like Giants with an armor save and a better-than-average cannon for less than a Giant. That's awful good.

Whatever i don't claim to know the game enough to say what's ballanced or not. If others feel their skills are good enough they are free to organise a comped tournament.

Boss Salvage wrote:1. Either hellheart or dispel scroll per army, not both

Is there logic behind this?

I feel its still too early. Hellheart should not be comped.

You're right it is pretty early.

marielle wrote:

Boss Salvage wrote:1. Either hellheart or dispel scroll per army, not both

Is there logic behind this?

Honestly I'm not 100% sure myself, but that's the actual ruling for Conflict in January. It seems like no big thing to me, hellheart being so drastically more extreme a version of anti-magic, but I guess it's to make the WAAC player think twice? As a dispel scroll is IMO still required in 8th, if not more so with how cracked out magic can be.

I have my own thoughts on why hellheart is a bad thing (and should be 55 points), but let's just say that I intend to never run it myself ... though I play some serious cuddlehammer

- Salvage

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=327512

A discussion from Warseerer on the same topic...

You know it's funny whenever a new book comes out, for both WHFB and 40K, many will start crying out that it's new tricks are OP and should be comped and yet a few months after people learn how to deal with them and these thing still don't get comped.

I really do think Hellheart is kind of a over the line item as is deathfist.

Like no book has simmilar weird stuff.
And i don't see the greatness of deathfist either just like any LVL reducing item it actually implies you failed to kill the enemy wizard. Usually once you get to grips with him he's pretty doomed already, death magic range is far from an epic imrovement to CC.

Boss Salvage wrote:

marielle wrote:

Boss Salvage wrote:1. Either hellheart or dispel scroll per army, not both

Is there logic behind this?

Honestly I'm not 100% sure myself, but that's the actual ruling for Conflict in January. It seems like no big thing to me, hellheart being so drastically more extreme a version of anti-magic, but I guess it's to make the WAAC player think twice? As a dispel scroll is IMO still required in 8th, if not more so with how cracked out magic can be.

I have my own thoughts on why hellheart is a bad thing (and should be 55 points), but let's just say that I intend to never run it myself ... though I play some serious cuddlehammer

- Salvage

I agree about the scroll being necessary, which is why I wonder at the logic of the ruling.

HoverBoy wrote:You know it's funny whenever a new book comes out, for both WHFB and 40K, many will start crying out that it's new tricks are OP and should be comped and yet a few months after people learn how to deal with them and these thing still don't get comped.

How do you deal with the hellheart?

(And for the record I don't think new books for WHFB and for W40K generate anything close to the same level of complaining and cries for comp. Out of all three new fantasy books (O&G, TK, OK) the hellheart and sphinx spam are the only issues that have thus far come under comp up here, which is damn impressive given the controls put on any one of the power armies of 7th One could argue that the books are getting stronger again - OK is a little meatier than TK is a bit harder than O&G - but there's nothing at all like the codex creep of 40k, not any more anyway. If that were the case I guess we'd get something ridiculous like chaos warriors being used as savage orcs, then down-based for tomb guard, then up-based to ogres )

@ marielle - That was my point, I think the ruling is to make you choose between the dispel scroll you're used to, or the random assholery of the hellheart. (If should be noted that the ruling assumes that you're running at least one firebelly or butcher in addition to your slaughtermaster.)

- Salvage

Eh. I'm not a big fan of comped tourneys for score. I see tiered placement for round one or even first day based on lists however.
And I don't see hellheart as douchey it's pretty random.

Boss Salvage wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:You know it's funny whenever a new book comes out, for both WHFB and 40K, many will start crying out that it's new tricks are OP and should be comped and yet a few months after people learn how to deal with them and these thing still don't get comped.

How do you deal with the hellheart?

Keep your wizard the hell away from that heart, if he's bumrushing to get near and use it set a bloomin trap.
The shadowfly suicide heart bearer is annoying for certain but spreading your wizards out or making sure to dispell steed of shadows seems legit to me, and if he miscasts himself well that might end up being even in the end.

Edit: Soul of stone earthening rod and infernal puppet are other options to mitigate hellheart, but we all know noone uses those

Deathfisting is stupid, but legal. Comp that if you wish.

Ironblasters are literally the only decent way Ogres have of dealing with Warmachines and big monsters. The fact they are Rare limits their numbers significantly already. Don't comp these.

Hellheart. If you comp this, you better also disallow Mindrazor, Pit of Shades, and Purple Sun, and anything else that brings the magic phase to the point where it can literally win you the game and is tailor made to kill ogres. 90% of the time, it isn't going to do anything beyond kill a few RnF, maybe deal a wound to a Wizard, and remove all your Power Dice for a single phase. And it only does these things if it is used at the right time and you roll high enough. The ogre player could roll a 1 or a 2 and get no wizards at all, there goes a 50 point item down the drain for nothing. There is a VERY tiny chance it can kill your Wizard(Dimensional Cascade and you roll less then 4) and a slightly larger chance you lose Wizard levels. Dont comp this unless you are comping the hell out of a whole bunch of other things.

Mournfangs. Yeah, they are really good at killing infantry. But they are easily destroyed by Magic, Str5 attacks, warmachines of any kind, anything that causes panic(ld7) The only thing they can take on with impunity is Str3 T3 infantry. they do ok against Str4 T4, but any higher and the Mournfangs get slaughtered. Limited Comp, limit of 2 units per army.

On the subject of hellheart, several other races have more reliable ways to compleetly shut down an enemy magic phase and noone has ever comped those, vube of darkness and vortex shard are IMO quite mean.

Indeed, the Vortex Shard also works 100% of the time IIRC. The Hellheart needs to roll high enough to get enough wizards within the effect range.

the Cube of Darkness is also more reliable then the Hellheart.


the Hellheart relies on getting at least 2/all of the wizards within the effect. Which a crafty player can prevent by having his wizards away from combat(which is where the Butcher is going to be) so they are less likely to get hit by it.


I think the Hellheart is a decently priced item that people need to learn how to play against it. It gives ogres something to counter magic, which is their weakspot.

Again I say, if you comp the hellheart you damn well better have banned Purple Sun, Pit of Lawls, and um's Mindlazer.

HoverBoy wrote:Keep your wizard the hell away from that heart, if he's bumrushing to get near and use it set a bloomin trap.
The shadowfly suicide heart bearer is annoying for certain but spreading your wizards out or making sure to dispell steed of shadows seems legit to me, and if he miscasts himself well that might end up being even in the end.

Edit: Soul of stone earthening rod and infernal puppet are other options to mitigate hellheart, but we all know noone uses those

I don't think staying away is a viable option, as ogres move very quickly and, frankly, I'd rather get to grips with the enemy than stay 20+" away Also, my level 4 is busy carrying a dispel scroll (even if I had access to stone of soul or infernal puppet)

HoverBoy wrote:On the subject of hellheart, several other races have more reliable ways to compleetly shut down an enemy magic phase and noone has ever comped those, vube of darkness and vortex shard are IMO quite mean.

Cube doesn't kill enemy casters in the process, and isn't the vortex shard 75-100 points? For me the real trauma of the hellheart is blowing the living gak out of your opponent's investment in the magic phase, not just shutting it down for one turn. Because frankly my winds rolls shut mine down for me on a regular basis ... but that doesn't blow up my grey seer in the process.

Grey Templar wrote:Hellheart. If you comp this, you better also disallow Mindrazor, Pit of Shades, and Purple Sun, and anything else that brings the magic phase to the point where it can literally win you the game and is tailor made to kill ogres. 90% of the time, it isn't going to do anything beyond kill a few RnF, maybe deal a wound to a Wizard, and remove all your Power Dice for a single phase. And it only does these things if it is used at the right time and you roll high enough. The ogre player could roll a 1 or a 2 and get no wizards at all, there goes a 50 point item down the drain for nothing. There is a VERY tiny chance it can kill your Wizard(Dimensional Cascade and you roll less then 4) and a slightly larger chance you lose Wizard levels. Dont comp this unless you are comping the hell out of a whole bunch of other things.

I am 100% fine with banning the Lore of Shadow entirely, GT As well as pretending the infernal puppet doesn't exist However you and Hover make a decent point: the hellheart is not the assassination tool I think of it as, it really is more akin to the cube - an expensive arcane item that will most likely shut down or neuter the enemy casting phase, with the added potential of doing nothing (due to a low range roll) or of blowing up multiple casters and winning you the game flat out. So I suppose I'll keep it down on the anti-hellheart front, it isn't so bad, though it will always leave bad tastes in somebody's mouth, either the ogre player when it does nothing or the other guy when his level 4 nukes. C'est la vie.

I still think it should cost 55 points, as should the infernal puppet, as forcing it onto a lord choice would build in a level of comp (i.e. choice) as it pushes out other arcane or defensive options. Also 8th edition has proven without a shadow of a doubt that the puppet is not a 35 point item.

- Salvage

yeah, i've gotten dirty looks when the hellheart works wonderfully. By the Skaven player whats more, the same guy who brought triple A-bombs to a tournament(Ard Boyz, but still...)

And then there are the games where it does nothing and I have wasted my 50 points.


And then these same people are saying I shouldn't run armor on my SM. I'm gonna keep doing it just out of spite. up your's Jervis

Boss Salvage wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:Keep your wizard the hell away from that heart, if he's bumrushing to get near and use it set a bloomin trap.
The shadowfly suicide heart bearer is annoying for certain but spreading your wizards out or making sure to dispell steed of shadows seems legit to me, and if he miscasts himself well that might end up being even in the end.

Edit: Soul of stone earthening rod and infernal puppet are other options to mitigate hellheart, but we all know noone uses those

I don't think staying away is a viable option, as ogres move very quickly and, frankly, I'd rather get to grips with the enemy than stay 20+" away Also, my level 4 is busy carrying a dispel scroll (even if I had access to stone of soul or infernal puppet)

HoverBoy wrote:On the subject of hellheart, several other races have more reliable ways to compleetly shut down an enemy magic phase and noone has ever comped those, vube of darkness and vortex shard are IMO quite mean.

Cube doesn't kill enemy casters in the process, and isn't the vortex shard 75-100 points? For me the real trauma of the hellheart is blowing the living gak out of your opponent's investment in the magic phase, not just shutting it down for one turn. Because frankly my winds rolls shut mine down for me on a regular basis ... but that doesn't blow up my grey seer in the process.

Grey Templar wrote:Hellheart. If you comp this, you better also disallow Mindrazor, Pit of Shades, and Purple Sun, and anything else that brings the magic phase to the point where it can literally win you the game and is tailor made to kill ogres. 90% of the time, it isn't going to do anything beyond kill a few RnF, maybe deal a wound to a Wizard, and remove all your Power Dice for a single phase. And it only does these things if it is used at the right time and you roll high enough. The ogre player could roll a 1 or a 2 and get no wizards at all, there goes a 50 point item down the drain for nothing. There is a VERY tiny chance it can kill your Wizard(Dimensional Cascade and you roll less then 4) and a slightly larger chance you lose Wizard levels. Dont comp this unless you are comping the hell out of a whole bunch of other things.

I am 100% fine with banning the Lore of Shadow entirely, GT As well as pretending the infernal puppet doesn't exist However you and Hover make a decent point: the hellheart is not the assassination tool I think of it as, it really is more akin to the cube - an expensive arcane item that will most likely shut down or neuter the enemy casting phase, with the added potential of doing nothing (due to a low range roll) or of blowing up multiple casters and winning you the game flat out. So I suppose I'll keep it down on the anti-hellheart front, it isn't so bad, though it will always leave bad tastes in somebody's mouth, either the ogre player when it does nothing or the other guy when his level 4 nukes. C'est la vie.

I still think it should cost 55 points, as should the infernal puppet, as forcing it onto a lord choice would build in a level of comp (i.e. choice) as it pushes out other arcane or defensive options. Also 8th edition has proven without a shadow of a doubt that the puppet is not a 35 point item.

- Salvage

The current version of Hellheart is slightly weaker than the old version, which was one use, caused a miscast on any double rolled in the opposing magic phase, and forced them to roll on the Ogre miscast table, which was pretty nasty. Especially in 7th when a magic phase could be 15 or 20 dice.

However it was rarely taken because it was 50 points, taking up the entire allowance of a Butcher, the 'pointless limitations' within the book made it impossible to run a Slaughtermaster in a standard game, and there were other magic defence items that were cheaper, and weren't just one turn items - eg Greatskull.

Grey Templar wrote:And then these same people are saying I shouldn't run armor on my SM. I'm gonna keep doing it just out of spite. up your's Jervis

Go for it man i let my opponents do it before the FAQ too

I think I'll convert and paint up a nice Armor of Destiny Slaughter Master and send it next time GW asks for Pics. Jervis is going to get Rub-burn. Maybe I'll give him the Greedy Fist and Lore of Death too