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Before getting started, if you haven't read the Badab War, this has vague spoilers.






So, I can't tell, when did Huron fall to chaos, and when did the rest of the Astral Claws?


-There are a number of various 3rd party attacks around negotiations- I couldn't tell if these were supposed to be mercenaries/allied chaos powers working with Huron, or said powers conspiring against Huron, setting him up for the fall and turning to them.

-The Astral Claws were sure doing some shady business (esp. regarding apothecaries), but I didn't get any sense that they were actually worshipping chaos. Similarly, the way they react to the Executioners rejecting them seems to imply that they still considered themselves mostly loyal, up until that point.

-It seems like, if they were worshipping chaos, it would hav been during the final assault on Badab that they would have played their hand, i.e. summoned a bunch of demons, etc.



…So, my thought is that there wasn't any chaos taint before the Astral Claws escape, but what do you think?

1°/ Huron and the Astral Claws didn't turn to Chaos worship until their defeat in the Badab War and their flight to the Maelstrom. Before that, they had turned renegade, but not Chaos. Following their installation in the Maelstorm, they certainly got corrupted pretty quickly (living on a daily basis in a warp storm and having just been expelled from the IoM).

2°/ While secessionists and loyalists gathered for a diplomatic encounter in the Grief System, a fleet of three Iconoclast Raiders jumped out of the warp and disrupted the negotiations (notably killing the Red Scorpions' chapter Master. The identity of the attackers is not known. Iconoclast Raiders are widely used by Chaos forces, but they are also found in the hands of simple renegades and pirates. However, it is suspected by Inquisitorial forces that they were Chaos raiders based in the Maelstrom that had some interest in seeing the Badab War continue. Others think that this attack was staged by Huron to murder the loyalist high-officers sent at the diplomatic encounter.
The truth will probably never be known.

3°/ That's the entire tragedy about the Astral Claws. Until being abandoned by the Executioners, they were still steadfastly loyal to the Emperor and the IoM in general. They simply regarded any outside interference by Administratum or Astartes authorities as a threat to their independence and to the safety of the Maelstrom Zone itself. Following their conflict with Administratum Tithe collectors on Sagan, they decided to separate themselves from the Administratum and claim dominion and responsibility of the Maelstrom Zone, but they still believed in the Emperor at that time.

4°/ Not a single daemon or Chaos worshiper was ever sighted during the entire Badab War. The Astral Claws never turned to Chaos worship until their defeat, nor did they ever try to summon a single daemon from the warp... that is, until they renamed themselves the Red Corsairs.

Laodamia wrote:Until being abandoned by the Executioners, they were still steadfastly loyal to the Emperor and the IoM in general. They simply regarded any outside interference by Administratum or Astartes authorities as a threat to their independence and to the safety of the Maelstrom Zone itself. Following their conflict with Administratum Tithe collectors on Sagan, they decided to separate themselves from the Administratum and claim dominion and responsibility of the Maelstrom Zone, but they still believed in the Emperor at that time.

One cannot be loyal and a traitor at the same time.

The tragedy about the Astral Claws is the hubris of their leader. They were not "misunderstood" - they simply thought they'd get away with secession against the will of the Administratum, which is empowered by the High Lords, which are in turn empowered by the Emperor Himself. The moment Huron ordered his men to open fire and murder the approaching Tithe fleet he marked himself an enemy of the Imperium as a whole.

Lynata wrote:

Laodamia wrote:Until being abandoned by the Executioners, they were still steadfastly loyal to the Emperor and the IoM in general. They simply regarded any outside interference by Administratum or Astartes authorities as a threat to their independence and to the safety of the Maelstrom Zone itself. Following their conflict with Administratum Tithe collectors on Sagan, they decided to separate themselves from the Administratum and claim dominion and responsibility of the Maelstrom Zone, but they still believed in the Emperor at that time.

One cannot be loyal and a traitor at the same time.

The tragedy about the Astral Claws is the hubris of their leader. They were not "misunderstood" - they simply thought they'd get away with secession against the will of the Administratum, which is empowered by the High Lords, which are in turn empowered by the Emperor Himself. The moment Huron ordered his men to open fire and murder the approaching Tithe fleet he marked himself an enemy of the Imperium as a whole.

I was under the impression that they were still basically considered involved in small scale dispute*, basically the "boys will be boys" clause, for the Space Marines, and that their problem was with the administration, not the Imperium/Emperor, until they lost their last allies (though they probably knew they couldn't go back, after a certain point).

*until things escalated, of course

Mhmm, I see your point. The Imperium has a long history of armed skirmishes between various organizations (most notably the Ecclesiarchy) and certain Space Marine Chapters that seem to come and go with few long-term consequences, usually because the higher-ups back at Terra know that each of the parties involved carries part of the blame, and instead of punishing both they keep content with damage control, only stepping in when things may get out of hand.

With Badab, I think, the issue was more severe, because as much as Huron has apparently wished for that, the area wasn't recognized as semi-independent Astartes territory but an integral part of the Imperium's economy. These worlds refusing to pay their tithe would have potentially disastrous effects for the IoM elsewhere, depending on what kind of materials the Administratum was actually tithing there. Sorely needed infantry reinforcements not arriving at a warzone because they were never recruited, Guard regiments deprived of fuel and munitions, Hive worlds starving because they don't get any food, psykers not getting culled. And last but not least, allowing Huron to get away with this would have created a nasty precedent showing other Marine Chapters that they could go and nab a few worlds in their vicinity just as well if they want - "the IoM wouldn't care".

So a reaction was inevitable. Secession is one of the few things that cannot be tolerated under any case, regardless of whether it's a Governor or a Chapter Master. Or in this case both.
Not to mention that Huron's talk about "still being loyal to the Emperor" were empty words, anyways. For all the Loyalist forces knew, he may have just as well wished to create a beachhead for a Chaos invasion and just playing for time. Loyalty to the Imperium means following orders coming down from the Emperor's appointed representatives.

Yeah, I think that Huon was a bit... dumb... regarding that. Or, maybe he was trying to push for more autonomy for the ACs/some accountability on the part of the others, and they called him on his bluff?

Along the lines of
Huron: "I'm leaving b/c you guys are being jerks and taking resources w/o supporting in return" (hint, nudge, demands)
Admin (5 years later): "wut?"
Inquisitors: "Heresy!"

Yeah, there certainly is room for interpretation. He may have even gotten away with simply delaying things, but by firing the first shot he pretty much forced everyone's hand.
Just like the Ecclesiarchy sent the Sisters to attack the Space Wolves after the latter had some target practice with a bunch of clerics visiting their planet.
Or like the Sons of Malice had to be excommunicated after they killed that Inquisitor, even if her assaulting the Marines was more or less unjustified.

That being said, I think it is somewhat fitting; it has been noted that many Space Marines see themselves as being above established authorities and better than "normal" humans, guarding their status and independence fiercely. When they have their own territories and are left to themselves this usually isn't much of an issue, unless some Inquisitor comes around and the Chapter gives him the finger. But installing a Space Marine Chapter Master to administrate an integrated Imperial territory and expecting him to play ball like any other governor probably isn't the smartest idea.

There are many reasons in Lugft Huron's mind for why he did what he did. Being given a materially profitable but extraordinarily dangerous area of space to police and maintain but to then be denied every reasonable request for additional forces to do the job assigned to him was but one. So his core heresy was when he decided to take matters in his own hand and violate the treaty for Astartes to adhere to their Codex by making more and more Astral claws that he was allowed. Withholding the gene seed and other tithes as well as hiding sanctioned Astartes in his own chapter, re-flagging the Tiger Claws company as if they were his own Astral Claws. The Tiger Claws' home world seems to have been purged by the Inquisition a long time ago and then this company of them just pops out of the warp years and years later. It was said in Imperial Armor 9 & 10 that taking in the Tiger Claws survivors may have been like taking a venomous influence into their midst. Not all Chaos leaning / embracing people are easy to spot, sporting obvious mutations and reeking of taint. So in Huron's attempt to make his forces in the image and size of a legion of the great crusade era, a major no no, he started down the traitors path and every step he took after made it all progressively worse. Of course the chaos heretics, pirates and xenos in the maelstrom zone were only too happy to egg things on and watch gleefully as the IoM weakened itself in a mini civil war.

I also have to wonder if the weapon the Tiger Claws gave to Huron as a gift, the 'Ghost Claw', was itself a chaos infected relic?

Resorting to the "evil artifact made me do it" is a copout excuse that doesn't really explore and make understandable why people end up turning from the Imperium despite their training and indoctrination.

Huron's thinking and arrogance placing him above and beyond normal humans is the same kind of mentality seen in the Chaos Space Marines, who we see basically live like overlords over a population of slaves and servants that exist to serve them and sometimes as a recruiting pool. It is probably the same kind of thinking that leads many Chapters to go renegade, when they start taking their autonomy too far to the point of placing their own interests ahead of the rest of the Imperium. A Chapter could easily reason to itself that it needs to preserve its strength for future "more important" conflicts and refuse to answer requests for aid from others repeatedly. It could also rationalize to itself that it needs to take over and rule another Imperial planet to get more resources to support the Chapter's forces, in order to better serve the Emperor. A Chapter can do all sorts of private empire building, all while believing it is serving the Emperor.

Like, say, the Ultramarines?

Oh I am not saying the "evil Artifact" made him do it at all. I am just positing that if it was tainted it was but one ingredient amongst many.
Arrogance, hubris, lust for power and a willingness to rationalize all to attain his ends were some of the others.

Until Huron refused a direct order from the Highlords to the warring parties to lay down their arms the entire conflict was nothing but a squabble between two legitimate authorities.
It is likely that he refused because the following investigation would have exposed the abnormal number of Astral Claws within the chapter which would have, at the very least, forced him to split the chapter.
The direct worship of chaos came as a result of living within the Maelstrom ( even Astartes need some help in such an unfriendly place ) after the remaining Astral Claws had to flee the Imperium.

As for Huron himself, i don't see him as unusualy proud. Other Astartes officers, notably from the Firehawks, who are still lauded as loyal had no problems with burning entire, imperial worlds just to draw their enemies into open battle. Such contempt for human life would be worthy of Abaddon himself

Lynata wrote:

Laodamia wrote:Until being abandoned by the Executioners, they were still steadfastly loyal to the Emperor and the IoM in general. They simply regarded any outside interference by Administratum or Astartes authorities as a threat to their independence and to the safety of the Maelstrom Zone itself. Following their conflict with Administratum Tithe collectors on Sagan, they decided to separate themselves from the Administratum and claim dominion and responsibility of the Maelstrom Zone, but they still believed in the Emperor at that time.

One cannot be loyal and a traitor at the same time.

The tragedy about the Astral Claws is the hubris of their leader. They were not "misunderstood" - they simply thought they'd get away with secession against the will of the Administratum, which is empowered by the High Lords, which are in turn empowered by the Emperor Himself. The moment Huron ordered his men to open fire and murder the approaching Tithe fleet he marked himself an enemy of the Imperium as a whole.

Actually, it may sound confusing, but Huron and the Astral Claws still believed themselves to be loyal citizens of the IoM until being abandoned to their fate by the executioners after the Red Hour incident.

For instance, until this turning point in the war, Astral Claws and Tyrant's Legion forces still bore the heraldry of the IoM and carried it on the battlefield.

Indeed, In 903.M41, Huron published the "Articles of Just Secession", stating that the Maelstrom Zone and its SM protectors would no longer pay tithes to the "corrupt" Administratum authorities on Sagan. However, he specifically stated that his sole vow was to "pursue the defense of the Imperium".

However, in 911.M41, after the departure of the executioners, Huron formally seceded from the IoM, and ordered that "all signs and symbols of Imperial authority, culture and creed were to be cast down." he also put to death all the clerks, priests and other symbols of Imperial authority within his domain.

They may have believed themselves to be that, but with their actions only serving to destabilize first the economy, then the military strength of the Imperium, there really is only one term for them - judging purely from an outside perspective.
And all in all, it's not that confusing ... the tragic traitor who sees his actions as justified - sometimes rightly so, othertimes just because he has a warped perception of reality - is an age-old cliché in literature.

Huron just seems to have been pretty deluded in his actions, sliding deeper and deeper into an arrogant obsession concerning his own authority. Maybe he even was somewhat insane or unknowingly influenced by Chaos - with the Maelstrom nearby and the still-unexplained presence of these three Iconoclasts, I suppose the possibility cannot be ruled out completely.

They were renegades not tainted in the badab war

Nobody knows for certain. Space Marines don't just go "POOF" and transform from Marine to CSM within an eyeblink - it's an ongoing development that, if the influence is subtle, may take some time during which they do not even realize themselves how they are in the process of falling. It also doesn't have to affect the entire Chapter. It could be limited to Huron. Or even just to someone close to Huron then providing "false" advise.

Not saying anything in the original texts actually points towards this, I'm just speculating on the various possibilities. I mean, it certainly wasn't a coincidence that a Chaos force showed up to disrupt a parley organized by Huron. Maybe he tried to defuse the situation, but one of his immediate subordinates then passed on these plans to whoever killed the Chapter Masters of the Red Scorpions and Mantis Warriors?
We'll never know. But Chaos was aware of the Badab War, even though it only seemed to manipulate it towards its own ends (Imperials fighting Imperials).

Much of the earlier sources (1st Edition i think) cited that Huron is evil. the revision is good thing but i want to know about the war itself.

Is ther any IG formations fighting in this war as a part of SM warband?

Lone Cat wrote:Much of the earlier sources (1st Edition i think) cited that Huron is evil. the revision is good thing but i want to know about the war itself.

Is ther any IG formations fighting in this war as a part of SM warband?

Huron's Legion was mostly mortal warriors with SM leaders.
SM chapters were seperate from the IG (Like they always are) during the war...

Lone Cat wrote:Is ther any IG formations fighting in this war as a part of SM warband?

I'm sure there would have been, if only because Space Marines sure weren't the only ones protecting the Maelstrom Zone. Unfortunately, the FW authors who wrote the detailed Imperial Armour accounts on the conflict basically handled it like an SM vs SM war. Even the normal Navy Battlefleets are barely mentioned, like some sort of addon that didn't play much of a role - despite supposedly being bigger and more powerful than the Astartes starfleets on-location, they only served as whipping boys for the Marines.
It's just as typical for Forgeworld books to omit the Sororitas, who one might assume would have been called in together with the Inquisition, given that Citadel Journal mentioned that the latter prefers relying on SoB Strike Forces to deal with renegade Marine Chapters rather than pitting Battle-Brother against Battle-Brother, for the obvious risks involved in doing so.

Lynata wrote:
It's just as typical for Forgeworld books to omit the Sororitas, who one might assume would have been called in together with the Inquisition, given that Citadel Journal mentioned that the latter prefers relying on SoB Strike Forces to deal with renegade Marine Chapters rather than pitting Battle-Brother against Battle-Brother, for the obvious risks involved in doing so.

Didn't the Fire Hawks and other Astartes Chapters get involved independently of the Inquisition? Considering Huron was so highly respected and felt that the independence of the Astartes as a whole was threatened I suspect that the Inquisition would have been very happy to have other Astartes Chapters' handle a large proportion of the fighting if only so that the independence of the Adeptus Astartes doesn't look like it's been infringed.

Also, considering the large number of Astartes in the Astral Claws and their allied Chapters, I suspect that the Sisters of Battle (if they really do have such low numbers as described) would have struggled to assault the planets of Huron and his allies.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Didn't the Fire Hawks and other Astartes Chapters get involved independently of the Inquisition?

Some did, but the Red Scorpions, the Raptors, the Salamanders and the Fire Angels were assembled by the investigators to enforce the edict for the combatants to stand down. In addition to a bunch of Ordo Hereticus Storm Troopers, it seems.
At least according to Lexicanum's article. Knowing that it isn't always reliable, please correct me if any of this information was wrong.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Also, considering the large number of Astartes in the Astral Claws and their allied Chapters, I suspect that the Sisters of Battle (if they really do have such low numbers as described) would have struggled to assault the planets of Huron and his allies.

Certainly. Remembering the article in the Journal, that's also not how they usually operate in such situations. Rather, they "simply" deepstrike into wherever the Chapter Master is located and cut off the snake's head to throw the renegades into disarray. I wonder what effect it would have had on the Astral Claws if they'd lost their leader, followed by another demand to surrender? How likely is it that some of Huron's own men may have questioned the path their Chapter had taken, but were kept in line out of discipline?

For the other ground forces, the Imperial Guard would have probably taken the brunt of the fighting.

Lynata wrote:Remembering the article in the Journal, that's also not how they usually operate in such situations. Rather, they "simply" deepstrike into wherever the Chapter Master is located and cut off the snake's head to throw the renegades into disarray. I wonder what effect it would have had on the Astral Claws if they'd lost their leader, followed by another demand to surrender? How likely is it that some of Huron's own men may have questioned the path their Chapter had taken, but were kept in line out of discipline?

I'd say that, like in the case of most cults of personality, there would have been a power vacuum and either a new successor would take charge and do his own thing, or the resistance would crumble.

Lone Cat wrote:Is ther any IG formations fighting in this war as a part of SM warband?

IIRC, you can use them to represent forces attached to the Inquisition, but, no, not really, unless you count the Tyrant's Shield.

Lone Cat wrote:Much of the earlier sources (1st Edition i think) cited that Huron is evil. the revision is good thing but i want to know about the war itself.

Is ther any IG formations fighting in this war as a part of SM warband?

While IG forces haven't been mentioned the sheer scale of the war makes them necessary imo. A few thousand spacemarines are hardly able to actualy conquer a fortified planet, no matter how skilled they are.

[quote=LynataCertainly. Remembering the article in the Journal, that's also not how they usually operate in such situations. Rather, they "simply" deepstrike into wherever the Chapter Master is located and cut off the snake's head to throw the renegades into disarray. I wonder what effect it would have had on the Astral Claws if they'd lost their leader, followed by another demand to surrender? How likely is it that some of Huron's own men may have questioned the path their Chapter had taken, but were kept in line out of discipline?
et
For the other ground forces, the Imperial Guard would have probably taken the brunt of the fighting.

Arturius wrote:Rather easier said than done, since you're talking about a Chapter master, Planetary governor, and the commander of an Imperial (sub)sector. I think it's safe to say his fortress would be difficult for a Sororitas strike force to overtake. There's a reason the siege of the Badab system didn't start until the rest of the Maelstrom Zone had been pacified.

That'd be the job of the Imperial Navy. One should assume they'd be doing a better job at establishing space superiority, anyways. The Sisters would only act once the fleet is in position above Badab, and then probably employ the same tactic that worked for the Star Phantoms.

Arturius wrote:It should also be noted that it's not unusual for the distinct branches of the Imperial military to organize under one branch's authority. On Armageddon, the overall defensive arrangements were assigned to Commissar Yarrick, and the space battles to Marshal Helbrecht, so you'd have Asartes fighting at Imperial Guard command and Navy fighting under an Asartes' command.

Problem is that since the Horus Heresy the Astartes aren't meant to have Guard and/or Navy under their command. That's why the commanders you're referring to have been normal humans.

Arturius wrote:It's been mentioned at other times, in the fluff, that Inquisitors prefer to have Space Marine disputes settled between Chapters, rather than making it a fight between Asartes and Imperial forces.

Where exactly? I'm only aware of Andy Hoare's article in Citadel Journal #49.

"Few Space Marine Chapters would be asked to move against another except in the direst of circumstances. Facing an entire Chapter of Space Marines is not a conflict many Imperial leaders would embark upon with any confidence, but where there is no alternative the Ordo may order a mission sent against the command structures of the renegade Chapter in order to disable the entire organisation from the top down. The only force outside of the Adeptus Astartes themselves with any hope of successfully assaulting a renegade Chapter Master and his attendant brethren may be an elite Strike Force of the Adepta Sororitas, led by an experienced and battle-hardened Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus."

Lynata wrote:

Arturius wrote:Rather easier said than done, since you're talking about a Chapter master, Planetary governor, and the commander of an Imperial (sub)sector. I think it's safe to say his fortress would be difficult for a Sororitas strike force to overtake. There's a reason the siege of the Badab system didn't start until the rest of the Maelstrom Zone had been pacified.

That'd be the job of the Imperial Navy. One should assume they'd be doing a better job at establishing space superiority, anyways. The Sisters would only act once the fleet is in position above Badab, and then probably employ the same tactic that worked for the Star Phantoms.

Sure. My point is just that, by the time the IN had ships in orbit around Badab, the war was in its last stages,

Arturius wrote:It should also be noted that it's not unusual for the distinct branches of the Imperial military to organize under one branch's authority. On Armageddon, the overall defensive arrangements were assigned to Commissar Yarrick, and the space battles to Marshal Helbrecht, so you'd have Asartes fighting at Imperial Guard command and Navy fighting under an Asartes' command.

Problem is that since the Horus Heresy the Astartes aren't meant to have Guard and/or Navy under their command. That's why the commanders you're referring to have been normal humans.

Helbrecht wasn't, and he had command of the space battles at Armageddon. The IN, IG, Asartes and Mechanus forces in any conflict have separate chains of command, as determined after the Heresy; you also have different Chapters, different IN battlegroups, etc. However, when they fight side by side, somebody has to be in charge. It doesn't seem uncommon for that person to be a Space Marine.
BFG has the Armageddon and Space Marine Dominion fleet lists to represent this, with IN and SM ships fighting together, and a fleet commander that can be either.

Arturius wrote:It's been mentioned at other times, in the fluff, that Inquisitors prefer to have Space Marine disputes settled between Chapters, rather than making it a fight between Asartes and Imperial forces.

Where exactly? I'm only aware of Andy Hoare's article in Citadel Journal #49.

Offhand, Gav Thorpe's sourcebook on the Thorians, available for GW's Inquisitor range:
It is therefore a prudent Inquisitor that does not rush in. In circumstances where a Chapter is proven to be a threat, it is the most preferable course of action that other Adeptus Astartes are used to combat the threat. Not only is a Space Marine Chapter a formidable fighting force that conventional troops may not be able to confront, but also allowing the Space Marines to deal with each other is invaluable. Space Marines all share a common bond with each other, and a Chapter Master will respond to information that threatens the honour of the Adeptus Astartes as a whole - for one Chapter to turn renegade is a smear on the reputation of all Space Marines.

It is sometimes enough to be confronted by fellow Space Marines rather than an agent of the Imperium to make a Chapter see the dangerous path it has begun to tread and to change its behaviour. If such criticism were to come from another source, it is likely to prompt a harsh reaction, possibly even compounding the threat. On the other hand, if a situation has reached such a level as to become a genuine menace, the destruction of the Chapter is sometimes the only course left open. This is no small undertaking, and several other Space Marine Chapters may become involved, either of their own volition or by request, as happened in the Fourth Quadrant Rebellion that led to the Badab war.

Lynata: Against a single chapter, the SoB might usually be called in. In Badab however that was never going to happen.

The Astral Claws themselves were the size of several chapters over. Add in the fortifications and Tyrant Legion and the SoB would be almost powerless due to sheer numbers.

The Badab War was a SM vs. SM simply because chaos WAS NOT involved. Even the forward in IA 9 states the simple fact that so many marines fighting each other should be blottted out of history. Badab was so horrible because instead of Chaos or Xenos influence it was an internal matter brought on hubris, pride, and paranoia. If word got around to the people what really happened it would ruin the image of marines from "The emperors angels of death" to simple violent thugs.

Even Gav Thorpe's quote on chapters responding to keep the Asartes honor: this single incident is worse than any chapter falling to Chaos. These are marines who fell to nothing more than simple bride and dragged an entire sector and thousands of their brothers with them.

Arturius wrote:Sure. My point is just that, by the time the IN had ships in orbit around Badab, the war was in its last stages,

Aye, but anything before you don't really need Space Marines for either. For space battles, IN should be the first choice, and when your target is a single world, there's no need to go "island hopping" from planet to planet with countless ground battles instead of pushing straight for your target.

Arturius wrote:Helbrecht wasn't, and he had command of the space battles at Armageddon.

Actually, according to Codex: Armageddon, it was Admiral Parol who was in command of the Imperial Navy fleet defense of Armageddon. Helbrecht was elected leader of the assembled Astartes fleets.
I realize the English Lexicanum article says differently (the German version, on the other hand, has the correct info), but that's why I maintain it's always worth looking up the original sources themselves, and treating that fan-maintained wiki merely as a guide to where you find them. You're bound to avoid lots of fan-speculation, interpretation and straight-out falsification that way.

It may also be worth noting that the Adeptus Astartes were absent from the military ruling council of Armageddon which took command of the government in preparation for the Third War. It featured only representatives from the Guard, the Navy, the Munitorum, the Ecclesiarchy, the Mechanicus and the local governors.

Arturius wrote:However, when they fight side by side, somebody has to be in charge.

Actually, no. The Imperial Navy and the Imperial Guard are operating side by side nigh-constantly, and still the rank of Warmaster is an exception only bestowed upon trusted individuals in times of great crisis. The Imperium generally does not want any one person being in command of both ground and space assets, and given the Heresy it wants a Space Marine to fill this role even less.

Arturius wrote:BFG has the Armageddon and Space Marine Dominion fleet lists to represent this, with IN and SM ships fighting together, and a fleet commander that can be either.

That article also notes that command duties were shared between IN and Astartes throughout the Armageddon war. I looked it up.

Arturius wrote:Offhand, Gav Thorpe's sourcebook on the Thorians

Heh, alright - guess that's typical 40k consistency for ya.

Veldrain wrote:Lynata: Against a single chapter, the SoB might usually be called in. In Badab however that was never going to happen.
The Astral Claws themselves were the size of several chapters over. Add in the fortifications and Tyrant Legion and the SoB would be almost powerless due to sheer numbers.

Oh, I'm not so surprised that the Sisters wouldn't have been the only ones called in. I'm surprised they were not called in at all. Or let's not say "surprised" - I'm used to FW writers forgetting that they exist all the time. See also the Siege of Vraks: an Apostate Cardinal on the loose, guess who gets sent?

Veldrain wrote:The Badab War was a SM vs. SM simply because chaos WAS NOT involved. [...] If word got around to the people what really happened it would ruin the image of marines from "The emperors angels of death" to simple violent thugs.

Traitors are traitors. The Imperium has no problem with mustering Guard regiments against CSM, so why should they refrain from doing so just because the enemy doesn't display the usual heraldry (which people are unaware of, anyways)? In case of doubt, simply tell them it's Chaos. For what it's worth, I'm sure a lot of Loyalists entertained this thought as the reason behind Huron's secession - regardless of whether it be true or not.

And it's not like it'd be the norm that Guard regiments, once mustered for a war, get disbanded and filter back into the population, anyways. If you're worried about Astartes reputation, I'd look towards the civilians on worlds such as Badab or Armageddon, who witness the cruelty of certain Marine Chapters with a contempt for humanity firsthand instead of merely fighting them.

I don't know if people have addressed this but I seem to recall there being a raid directed by the Salamander's Captain involved in the War on a planet hidden within the Maelstrom filled with mutant/pirate/creeps that Huron was training to make an assault on Sagan or one of the other systems with...I can't recall if there was chaos involved but it certainly demonstrates a large disparity between the Astral Claws whole ideology and that of a 'Loyal' Chapter. Also, throughout the War, the Astral Claws used the Tyrant's Legion as cannon fodder as well as the aid of pirates and other unsavory factions from the Maelstrom itself to try and gain the upper hand. I don't know if that is necessarily the behavior of a Chapter fallen to Chaos or just the behavior of a chapter that has definitely fallen out of the fold ideologically. I dunno, not saying they definitely fell to chaos but they crossed lines other 'Renegade' Chapters crossed during the course of the war, undoubtedly....At least as bad as the Knights of Blood and they were excommunicated.

BrainDeleted wrote:I don't know if people have addressed this but I seem to recall there being a raid directed by the Salamander's Captain involved in the War on a planet hidden within the Maelstrom filled with mutant/pirate/creeps that Huron was training to make an assault on Sagan or one of the other systems with...I can't recall if there was chaos involved but it certainly demonstrates a large disparity between the Astral Claws whole ideology and that of a 'Loyal' Chapter. Also, throughout the War, the Astral Claws used the Tyrant's Legion as cannon fodder as well as the aid of pirates and other unsavory factions from the Maelstrom itself to try and gain the upper hand. I don't know if that is necessarily the behavior of a Chapter fallen to Chaos or just the behavior of a chapter that has definitely fallen out of the fold ideologically. I dunno, not saying they definitely fell to chaos but they crossed lines other 'Renegade' Chapters crossed during the course of the war, undoubtedly....At least as bad as the Knights of Blood and they were excommunicated.

None of this is in the IA books on the Badab War. Are you sure it came from a canonical source?

In the IA books vol 9 and 10, there is no mention of Huron using any form of pirates or other mercenaries or renegades. Huron's own astartes forces, however, used piracy against loyalist shipping repeatedly during the war. By the way, so did the loyalists on secessionist shipping.
But Huron himself never sought the aid of any other armed force apart from the Maelstrom Wardens and the Executionners. The only non-astartes force used by Huron was the Tyrant's Legion, a collection of the different PDF and IG formations from the Maelstrom Zone, that was re-trained and re-organised into a single cohesive (and quite potent) fighting force. The Tyrant's Legion was placed under Astartes officers (called centurions) and used (I'll grant you that) as canon fodder.

But Huron never hired any renegade, pirate, mercenary or Chaos worshiper during the war.