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I've read the thread about the Imperial marines and found this

Lynata wrote:Purely going by GW fluff, the number of IG Storm Troopers is really, really, really low (fewer than the SoB, which are fewer than the Space Marines).

I was wondering if anyone else read that/where to find, as I think thats quite ridiculously low, considering that you need a bunch of Inquisitorial ST as well as IG ST.

The idea that elite soldiers with no augments and higher quality gear are rarer than the supermen in PA is... stupid, to say the least.

That bit is from the 2E Imperial Guard Codex, by the way.

"The Storm Troopers are the Imperial Guard's best fighting regiment. Unlike other regiments they are recruited from all across the Imperium, and they wear a distinctive uniform which is instantly recognisable by other Imperial Guard units. The regiment is unusually large, with as many as ten thousand men under arms at one time. However, it rarely fights in one place. Instead, individual companies or battalions of a thousand men at a time are sent to war zones to bolster the fighting strength of the Imperial Guard. In action they provide a core of ultra-trained, well-equipped squads that can be spread amongst the other Imperial Guard regiments as needed."

It does not include Inquisition Storm Troopers. Also keep in mind that there are countless "sort-of" Storm Troopers as an integral part of various regiments called Grenadiers or Kasrkin or whatever. What sets the "real" Storm Troopers apart is their Schola training and orphan background as well as their extreme mobility and modus operandi as well as deep-strike capabilities not associated with the regular forces.

There could be numerous reasons for why there aren't more of them, ranging from tradition (the Storm Troopers do differ from your standard IG regiment on more than one level) to a decree by the Emperor (like the "why do only Marines get to have Land Raiders?" question) to the extreme requirements placed on potential candidates.

Of course, as with all of 40k fluff, you are not required to stick to GW studio material. I know from a personal discussion that at least one of the FFG RPG writers decided to dismiss it because he thinks it's cool if Storm Troopers would be much more common, for example.

About these ''Sort-of'' ST, I always considered them to be ST's under another name, so they'd deepstrike away and do whatever a ''normal'' ST would do.

Edit: Mind you the books I've read to base that are Cadian Blood (Kasrkin storming the place and being bosses) and Dead Mean Walking (DKoK Grenadiers scouting in the city via Valkyrie drops and sabotage)

As far as I know, only Cadian Kasrkin (which are noted to be closest to "real" Storm Troopers in training and equipment) have the deep-strike rule - Grenadiers don't. I'd have to re-read the IG Codex to make sure, though!

Ah, something else to consider would be that the Storm Trooper regiment has a much higher attrition rate than your average Space Marine Chapter. I'm not sure how old they can get on average, but considering that the regiment is shipped to the most dangerous warzones across the galaxy, I'd say the risk of getting KiA is pretty high.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070202084629/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/imp_forces.html

Here's the force composition of Imperial troops during the 3rd Armageddon War, by the way. You can compare the numbers of Battle Sisters and Storm Troopers against the Space Marines yourself, I think.

Well I have the Siege of Vraks serie too, let me fetch the Death Korp 'nadiers rules.

Maybe she meant Inquisitorial Stormtroopers? There is a difference between ordinary Stormtroopers ( Cadian Kasrkin, Krieg Grenadiers) and Inquisitorial ones.

But eve then that would be weird, Inquisition can more easily train several Stormtroopers then one Sister of Battle. I don't see why would they number less then Sisters?

Bobthehero wrote:Well I have the Siege of Vraks serie too, let me fetch the Death Korp 'nadiers rules.

Well hell, they don't have all the fancy rules of ST's, hell they don't even have access to a fricking plasma gun, makes e'm a lot less sexy rule wise :(

I suppose demo charge and melta bombs sort of make up for it, but still...

Hmm, seems as if Grenadiers have been removed from the current IG Codex - they only have the ST regiment right now. Shame.
It used to be a Regimental Doctrine in the previous Codex that allowed you to take cheap ST knock-offs that couldn't Infiltrate nor Deep Strike. I'm sure other IG vets with more experience regarding their previous codices can tell you more. But it may well be that the Vraks rules you mentioned are identical.

Brother Coa wrote:Maybe she meant Inquisitorial Stormtroopers? There is a difference between ordinary Stormtroopers ( Cadian Kasrkin, Krieg Grenadiers) and Inquisitorial ones.

No, when I'm talking about Storm Troopers, then I do mean the Storm Troopers - the Schola-bred original serving the Imperial Guard as a highly versatile add-on across the galaxy, not some variant. See Codex quote above.

Well they have hellgun and carapace armor and can't do half the fun stuff, plus they're mostly just well armed veteran guardsmen (Krieg doesn't have ''normal veteran'' seems they get bumped straight to Grenadiers).

But according to the Lexicanum the Grenadiers of the Korp serve both as Stormtroopers under another name and veteran guardsmen.

Well, we can probably assume that even though the Grenadiers are no longer available as a Regimental doctrine in the 5E Codex, they'd still exist in the fluff.

At least I do. As with everything 40k, it's all about personal perception.

The Forgeworld DKoK Grenadiers are probably just one of many examples of how to pull them off.

Lyn, I don't think you really looked too hard for "Grenadiers" in the current book.

Veteran Squads can choose any of the following doctrines:
Very first one is Grenadiers, followed by Forward Sentries, and ending with Demolitions.

Anyways, it's best to ignore the Stormtroopers entry in the current Codex. Every piece of tertiary canon(whether or not Lyn wants to acknowledge it or not) has hinted at each Segmentum having a Stormtrooper Regiment--meaning there's at least 3-4 Stormtrooper Regiments. Robin Cruddace and whoever else worked alongside of/signed off on what pieces of fluff were published in the IG book chose to recycle 2nd Edition fluff for quite a few pieces(ex: Stormtroopers and "Hotshot Lasguns").

Lynata wrote:Hmm, seems as if Grenadiers have been removed from the current IG Codex - they only have the ST regiment right now. Shame.
It used to be a Regimental Doctrine in the previous Codex that allowed you to take cheap ST knock-offs that couldn't Infiltrate nor Deep Strike. I'm sure other IG vets with more experience regarding their previous codices can tell you more. But it may well be that the Vraks rules you mentioned are identical.

Brother Coa wrote:Maybe she meant Inquisitorial Stormtroopers? There is a difference between ordinary Stormtroopers ( Cadian Kasrkin, Krieg Grenadiers) and Inquisitorial ones.

No, when I'm talking about Storm Troopers, then I do mean the Storm Troopers - the Schola-bred original serving the Imperial Guard as a highly versatile add-on across the galaxy, not some variant. See Codex quote above.

These:
ST 3rd ed: special wargear, infiltrate , deepstrike, 4+ save.
ST 4th ed: doctrines 'ST' has to be taken if doctrines are used to field ST. special wargear, infiltrate deepstrike, 4+ save.
The same small fluff blurb at the army list entry.
ST 5th ed: special wargear, deepstrike, "commandos" ( either scouts, move through cover, or reroll scatter at DS or infiltrate ), 4+ save.
Points went up, morale went down and fluff grow to a whole page. ( small blurb from 3rd and 4th still integrated.. )

And these:
Veterans could buy an upgrade to grenadier, an armor upgrade that is. ( 5+ > 4+ ) in 5th.
Troops could be trained 'like ST' and count as troops choice whilst using the entry of the ST in 4th. ( doctrine/grenadier ). Veterans could buy 4+ too. ( doctrines/wargear ).

Have things in common sometimes, but are still not the same unit.

The amount of ST an imperial commander may have could be as low as modern day special forces. The fighting arm of the Guard are the standard units and the veterans. Stormtroopers are just a bonus.


THE stormtroopers? GW beeing consistent for once?
The few stormtrooper models I got cheap when I bought my first Guard Models look quite differently from what people consider ST now...
Just look at the pics.

Kanluwen wrote:Veteran Squads can choose any of the following doctrines:
Very first one is Grenadiers, followed by Forward Sentries, and ending with Demolitions.

Ooh, so they're still in? Good to hear, thanks for the clarification.

Kanluwen wrote:Anyways, it's best to ignore the Stormtroopers entry in the current Codex. Every piece of tertiary canon(whether or not Lyn wants to acknowledge it or not) has hinted at each Segmentum having a Stormtrooper Regiments--meaning there's at least 3-4 Stormtrooper Regiments. Robin Cruddace and whoever else worked alongside of/signed off on what pieces of fluff were published in the IG book chose to recycle 2nd Edition fluff for quite a few pieces(ex: Stormtroopers and "Hotshot Lasguns").

Anyways, it's best to ignore "tertiary" canon as by the people actually working for GW there is no canon in 40k anyhow - and I'm pretty sure that not "every piece" of Black Library fiction even mentions the word "Storm Trooper", let alone talk about how many they are.

I know you dislike the idea, but that doesn't mean you get to enforce your version of the setting just as much as I don't get to enforce mine. It's each and everyone's individual decision on whether he wishes to follow actual studio material or some individual author's interpretation, especially when said authors have a tendency to either ignore a lot of GW stuff or simply aren't aware of it - just like you weren't until I pointed it out. We should probably keep in mind that BL or FFG authors are fans like you and me, they are not some sort of "authority" on the setting. This is a very established misconception that needs to be dispelled.

There's probably only 6,000-10,000, US Army Green Berets are probably more numerous. Not counting Kasrkin and Inquisitorial Stormtroopers anyway, the latter of which GW decided to give the axe for some strange reason.

GW is very stupid with the numbers in relation to the scale and doesn't understand that it makes them almost useless.

I think it starts to make a lot more sense when people stop assuming that the Storm Troopers need to pop up at every small conflict in the galaxy as opposed to a highly mobile rapid reaction add-on to reinforce Imperial Guard regiments in high profile crisis zones.

Basically, what 1hadhq wrote @ "just a bonus".

It's the same things about Sisters of Battle and people thinking that, just because they are individually not as powerful as a Space Marine, there just have to be millions around. Until we actually look at the force composition charts and their organizational fluff in the codices.

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Anyways, it's best to ignore the Stormtroopers entry in the current Codex. Every piece of tertiary canon(whether or not Lyn wants to acknowledge it or not) has hinted at each Segmentum having a Stormtrooper Regiments--meaning there's at least 3-4 Stormtrooper Regiments. Robin Cruddace and whoever else worked alongside of/signed off on what pieces of fluff were published in the IG book chose to recycle 2nd Edition fluff for quite a few pieces(ex: Stormtroopers and "Hotshot Lasguns").

Anyways, it's best to ignore "tertiary" canon as by the people actually working for GW there is no canon in 40k anyways - and I'm pretty sure that not "every piece" even mentions the word "Storm Trooper", let alone talk about how many they are.

This is the silliest stance one can take on the matter. It's a lazy stance, which when repeated ad infinitum just makes you come off as that kid whose older siblings told them there is no Santa Claus and then makes a point of telling it to every other child they know.

Tertiary canon is there for a reason. It fleshes out the universe in ways that the codices do not. While I am very vehement in decrying certain writers' works(*cough* Goto *cough* Counter), it doesn't mean they aren't "canon". It's just best to ignore them when discussing canon because they're so far out there it's silly.

I know you dislike the idea, but that doesn't mean you get to enforce your version of the setting just as much as I don't get to enforce mine. It's each and everyone's individual decision on whether he wishes to follow actual studio material or some individual author's impression, especially when said authors have a tendency to either ignore a lot of GW stuff or simply aren't aware of it - just like you weren't until I pointed it out.

Not actually sure what you're referring to here. Is it that George Mann piece--again?
I know you like bringing that up, but it's really not relevant here.

Stormtroopers having a single regiment made sense in the "Olden Days" when Space Marines were still humans in power armor. It no longer makes sense when you realize Schola Progeniums are across the width and breadth of the Imperium, and there are worlds like Cadia which can field regiments of their local equivalents of Stormtroopers(as a sidenote it's published in Codex: Eye of Terror, in the form of a POV report from Commissar assigned to a Cadian Regiment that the basic training he endured alongside the Whiteshields was "far superior" to the training he received at the Schola Progenium).

We should probably keep in mind that Black Library authors are fans like you and me, they are not some sort of "authority" on the setting.

We should also probably keep in mind that Black Library(and Forge World) staff are also GW employees.

And that while many of those authors are fans like you and me, many of them also make a point to be as knowledgeable as possible on the "canon" of the setting. They also make a point of ignoring pieces of background which do not mesh with the current setting, especially when said pieces are older than some forum posters.


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Lynata wrote:I think it starts to make a lot more sense when people stop assuming that the Storm Troopers need to pop up at every small conflict in the galaxy as opposed to a highly mobile rapid reaction add-on to reinforce Imperial Guard regiments in high profile crisis zones.

And then it falls right back apart when you realize that in the view of every author except Cruddace and whoever else worked on the Imperial Guard book, Stormtroopers are no longer just a "mobile rapid reaction add-on to reinforce Imperial Guard regiments in high profile crisis zones".

They fulfill vital roles like headquarters security, bodyguard compliments for high-ranking officers, etc. "Blood Pact" has an entire Company of Stormtroopers devoted to guarding a Lord-Commissar and his headquarters contingent.

Aren't storm troopers in the IG the drop outs from the Inquisitorial storm trooper training? At least, I remember something to extent.

I heard the best cadets were selected by the Inquisition, the other go in the IG.

It's a bit fuzzy on the details. The jist is this:
Candidates with one of two things: familial traditions of Inquisitorial service or particular traits which have caught an Inquisitor's eye will be selected for Inquisitorial service.

It usually won't be until after they've completed the Stormtrooper training.

Lynata wrote:Purely going by GW fluff, the number of IG Storm Troopers is really, really, really low (fewer than the SoB, which are fewer than the Space Marines).

Kanluwen wrote:It's a bit fuzzy on the details. The jist is this:
Candidates with one of two things: familial traditions of Inquisitorial service or particular traits which have caught an Inquisitor's eye will be selected for Inquisitorial service.

It usually won't be until after they've completed the Stormtrooper training.

Ah, that must be it, guess I got mixed up somewhere.

Lynata wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Maybe she meant Inquisitorial Stormtroopers? There is a difference between ordinary Stormtroopers ( Cadian Kasrkin, Krieg Grenadiers) and Inquisitorial ones.

No, when I'm talking about Storm Troopers, then I do mean the Storm Troopers - the Schola-bred original serving the Imperial Guard as a highly versatile add-on across the galaxy, not some variant. See Codex quote above.

But that is impossible that there are more Sisters then Stormtroopers in the galaxy.
Stormtroopers are elite part of the military, special forces to be precise. How can they be rarer then most elite of the Ecclisiarcchy military arm?
Especially when there are entire Regiments of them in the galaxy, I bet that they even outnumber Astartes ( I think that Krieg Grenadiers alone outnumber them several times ).

Kanluwen wrote:

when you realize that in the view of every author except Cruddace and whoever else worked on the Imperial Guard book, Stormtroopers are no longer just a "mobile rapid reaction add-on to reinforce Imperial Guard regiments in high profile crisis zones".

They fulfill vital roles like headquarters security, bodyguard compliments for high-ranking officers, etc. "Blood Pact" has an entire Company of Stormtroopers devoted to guarding a Lord-Commissar and his headquarters contingent.

Realize what?
That someone WANTS Stormtroopers to be common?
Or has a source for this claim of a change ? IIRC the "add on" status of the ST exists since 3rd ed. I am sure Mr cruddace contributed to only one of these 3 IG codices. A single BL authors idea of an ST contingent as 'bodyguard' doesn't invalidate a codex.

Stormtroopers are the black hole if IG units in terms of consistency.

Aside from always, in GW works, being two capitilized words, "Storm Troopers," they change a lot.

I mean, the 3rd ed black book had them as BS4 guardsmen with three specials, or basically indistinguishable from modern vets. The 3rd ed codex made them buy deep strike and/or deep strike, but they had 4+ saves, targeters (could premeasure ranges), and AP5 hellguns. 3.5 allowed them as troops as well with a doctrine. 5th, of course, made the relatively much more elite: pistol/ccw, AP3 hellguns, and multiple deployment rules, plus accurate deep strike.

The point is, the various formations that are called "Storm Troopers" vary widely.

The same source that limited them to 10,000 men in one regiment also ignored their commando/special forces aspect, and focused on them as a spearhead force.

Still, I'd imagine that actual Imperial Storm Troopers would come from a pretty limited range of regiments.

1hadhq wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

when you realize that in the view of every author except Cruddace and whoever else worked on the Imperial Guard book, Stormtroopers are no longer just a "mobile rapid reaction add-on to reinforce Imperial Guard regiments in high profile crisis zones".

They fulfill vital roles like headquarters security, bodyguard compliments for high-ranking officers, etc. "Blood Pact" has an entire Company of Stormtroopers devoted to guarding a Lord-Commissar and his headquarters contingent.

Realize what?
That someone WANTS Stormtroopers to be common?
Or has a source for this claim of a change ? IIRC the "add on" status of the ST exists since 3rd ed. I am sure Mr cruddace contributed to only one of these 3 IG codices. A single BL authors idea of an ST contingent as 'bodyguard' doesn't invalidate a codex.

I didn't say that Stormtroopers aren't still "addons" to Guard regiments. I said that their role has been expounded upon.

And quite frankly, Cruddace shouldn't be allowed to helm on a book. Rules or fluff, he does an atrocious job. The idea of Stormtroopers serving as bodyguards though has existed for quite awhile...and in fact was first suggested by Andy Chambers and Pete Haines in the "special units" for the 13th Black Crusade when they released the "Imperial High Command" and "Ahriman's Cult" units. The High Command replaced Veterans/Guardsmen with Stormtroopers.

Well, it's well established that forgeworlds that can't make proper Baneblades make the closest things they can to them.

Even aside from Regiments of Grenadiers/Kasrkin, I'd be shocked if powerful planets/sectors/etc. didn't train up their own variants on IG Storm Troopers.

Nothing about them seems limited by ancient tech such as plasma, power armor, etc. They're just expensive to raise, train, and supply. The IG, in the fluff as well as in the game, can afford to specialize. I'm sure every version of "BS4, 4+ humans" recieves the gear and training they need for their mission, but no more.

What the point cost of a vet guardsman with carapace armor as of now?

I am trying to compare them with DKoK grenadiers, who are definitively not Stormtroopers in my eyes anymore :(

As much as Stormtroopers are my favorite units...

Kanluwen wrote:This is the silliest stance one can take on the matter.

The silly stance is that you keep pointing to some individual authors' personal interpretations in spite of all the contradictions and idiocy that keeps coming from that direction (Multilaser Marines anyone?) because you don't like what it says in the studio Codex. And it's not even enough that you're still free to pursue this as your personally preferred version of the setting, you have to ram it down everyone's throat by citing some sort of canonicity that has never existed in the first place.

I actually did the same, but I relented when I was confronted with the quotes I'm throwing around nowadays, admitting that I made a mistake and adapting my stance accordingly.

Kanluwen wrote:It's a lazy stance, which when repeated ad infinitum just makes you come off as that kid whose older siblings told them there is no Santa Claus and then makes a point of telling it to every other child they know.

Then you are the kid that still insists of Santa existing for real, I take it, even though the guy who plays him at the supermarket already told you the truth.

Kanluwen wrote:Tertiary canon is there for a reason.

There is no such thing as "tertiary canon", and I think you should stop pulling this sort of stuff out of thin air and go hunt for some proof that actually backs up your opinion, like I did, even if you still refuse to acknowledge it. Black Library, as said by George Mann, exists "to tell a good story", that's about it. It fleshes out the universe in exactly the same way as fanfiction does - by providing opinions and suggestion you are free to adopt or dismiss.

Kanluwen wrote:Not actually sure what you're referring to here. Is it that George Mann piece--again?

Nope, I was referring to Gav Thorpe's blog. Maybe you should go and read it, too.
http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/jumping-the-fence/

Gav Thorpe wrote:With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy.

Kanluwen wrote:Stormtroopers having a single regiment made sense in the "Olden Days" when Space Marines were still humans in power armor.

You are free to believe that. Doesn't change the fact that studio material pursues a different angle. You need to build a bridge.

Kanluwen wrote:We should also probably keep in mind that Black Library(and Forge World) staff are also GW employees.

Whose individual opinions, just like with any other company, may not reflect the stance of the studio as a whole.

Kanluwen wrote:And then it falls right back apart when you realize that in the view of every author except Cruddace and whoever else worked on the Imperial Guard book, Stormtroopers are no longer just a "mobile rapid reaction add-on to reinforce Imperial Guard regiments in high profile crisis zones". They fulfill vital roles like headquarters security, bodyguard compliments for high-ranking officers, etc. "Blood Pact" has an entire Company of Stormtroopers devoted to guarding a Lord-Commissar and his headquarters contingent.

I couldn't care less what some licensed product claims - I don't have to incorporate it into my perception of the setting as molded by the stuff released by GW themselves. Outsourced books also want to tell me that Space Marines go into battle with multilasers, that Terminators can do backflips, that Sisters of Battle are perfectly free to sleep around out of boredom, that D-Cannons fire projectiles, that there is such a thing as "Navigator-Servitors", that the Deathwatch has its own fleet of battle barges and invisible remote-controlled Exterminatus drone ships, that the height of a Space Marine changes between 7 and 10 feet in every damn book and a ton of other shenanigans.

So don't try to claim a consistency where clearly it doesn't exist.

Soladrin wrote:Aren't storm troopers in the IG the drop outs from the Inquisitorial storm trooper training? At least, I remember something to extent.

Not really, IG Storm Troopers are Schola Progenium orphans trained specifically for this role. Inquisition Storm Troopers are recruited both from the Schola as well as "certain families with a tradition of service to the Inquisition". At least according to GW codices.

I suppose you could also interpret it in a way that one may get transferred to the other based on how good or bad he scores, but that would be pure speculation. I guess that the Inquisition might "requisition" fresh Storm Troopers depending purely on its needs, and then taking the best men who have survived/finished their training, but that this wouldn't be a regular occurrence. Meaning you won't have an ST class and an IST class in the Schola - just one for STs, but occasionally an Inquisitor may come along and "steal" one of its men .. or the entire unit.

Brother Coa wrote:But that is impossible that there are more Sisters then Stormtroopers in the galaxy.
Stormtroopers are elite part of the military, special forces to be precise. How can they be rarer then most elite of the Ecclisiarcchy military arm?
Especially when there are entire Regiments of them in the galaxy, I bet that they even outnumber Astartes ( I think that Krieg Grenadiers alone outnumber them several times ).

As mentioned in one of the earlier posts, there is only a single regiment of "proper" Storm Troopers who are raised and trained in the same facilities as future SoB novices. Grenadier formations such as the Death Korps ones are just that - Grenadiers, not Storm Troopers. The difference is that one is permanently attached to a regiment whereas another acts as a mobile add-on, as well as deep-strike and infiltration capabilities, and of course the Schola background.
We also have to keep in mind that the Schola Progenium doesn't train only Storm Troopers and Sisters of Battle, but that these two only get the best of the best of the martially inclined progena, except for the few candidates that may be of interest to the Officio Assassinorum or the Inquisition. The vast majority of progena becomes Administratum scribes, Navy NCOs, Commissars, Arbites, etc ...

Of course the Death Korps Grenadiers aren't Stormtroopers, they train for something entirely different!

Stormtroopers are trained primarily as "specialist" units, think of them as the heavy hitters who need to be in the right place at the right time.
The Death Korps Grenadiers are trained as "spearhead" units, which goes hand in hand as to why they can take Centaur transports. Their job is to get in first, kick the door open and hold it against all odds while the grunts come in to pour through the breach.

Stormtroopers can perform the same role of course, but might not do it as effectively as the Death Korps Grenadiers like the Grenadiers might not be able to do the more "covert" actions that the Stormtroopers engage in to the same extent.

I'll blame Steve Lyons and his Grenadier doing all sort of recon mission and sabotage (at least in Dead Men Walking that is)