Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Finally wanted to get back into 40k again (and deciding against Dark Eldar since I can't seem to run them in a theme to my liking that wont get crushed) I'm choosing to go with the Kan wall that I've always wanted.

So I guess I'm wondering how well it would work out if I was to use only grots after the 2 Big Meks, 2 Dreds, and 9 Killa Kans?
I currently don't have the book with me and haven't played in so long that the points escape me, but I'm really leaning towards a no Ork (of any kind... except for the Big Meks and I guess technically the Orks in the Dreds) list.

Additionally, what would be the best way to upgrade everything?

Well, mobility and LD of your grots will be an issue. Plus, even of you trick out all your Units, you may still cap out pretty low since 2 Troops will be Deff Dreds. I think it sounds fun, and migh actually confuse some opponents at first, but most armies will be able to shoot and assault an all Grot army of the board wih ease.

I'm not against using transports for the Grots if mobility would be an issue. I'm all for converting them up with the lesser greenskins in charge!

11 walkers can be fun, just make sure to either put scorchas on the dreads or DCCW, not rokkits since they ahve a gakky BS.

As said, with their T2, WS2, A1, S2, the grots will get destroyed by pretty much anythiing. THey don,t benifit from the WAAAGH or mob rule either IIRC.

Perhaps if you put enough lootas in your list it could become viable.

The scary part of the Kan Wall is the huge horde of Boyz right behind it. Grots are terrible at everything except 2 things:
1. Objective holding
2. Being a screen in a Green Tide to give the Boyz 4+ cover.

They're terrible due to their statline, lack of combat special rules, and just being little weedy green gubbins.

Stick to Boyz.

Assuming I did decide to go with boyz, what would be the best options? Loota boyz would fit the theme the most I imagine, and from I remember they had potential to pack some damage, but I haven't played since 4th ed... so I could be way off.

The benefit to your proposal would be that you would have the points to add massive amounts of Lootas screened by Grots. 45 Lootas would solve the mobility problem of the Grots. And most opponents would correctly attempt to shut down the Lootas ASAP thus leaving the Grots to be taken care of by their assaulty units.

BTW does anyone know if Grabba Stiks work against a Walkers attacks? Or a reason why they wouldn't?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I'd recommend at least 1 boyz mob so you can stick your KFF Mek in a fearless unit of 30 Shootas so he doesn't flee like he would being stick with Grots. Yeah, LD is the Grots (and Orks) single biggest enemy.

Buttlerthepug wrote:Assuming I did decide to go with boyz, what would be the best options? Loota boyz would fit the theme the most I imagine, and from I remember they had potential to pack some damage, but I haven't played since 4th ed... so I could be way off.

Loota boyz are elites.

They are a must however if you don't want to be running all aroudn the board vs fast armies.

Your troops are going to be made of basic ork boyz (shootas or sluggas). Shootas are most popular for ork boyz that are foot slogging, but sluggas can do the job too. remember though, each mob of ork boyz MUST be lead by a nob with a PK (and preferably a BP). For every 10 boyz, you can add either a rokkit or a big shoota, this again goes on how you like to play, rokkits goes trough power armor and ID most infantry, but with a bs2, most will miss. Big shoota have more range, will wound mostly on a 3+ and has 3 shot per Big shoota.

Use proxies if you are not sure about which (big shoota or rokkits) to use. Also, most poeple will accep the poxy of slugga to shoota and the other way around if you don't do it to complicated.

Grabba stick onyl works vs IC IIRC. And a littel metal pole vs a DCCW....

Boyz are really killy. In the off chance that all kanz have been killed the boyz can charge and start to do the killing.
Now grots just can not quite do the damage.

I would want rockets on at least 6 kans to deal with tanks. Then cc weapons or templates for the dreads as they are rubbish at shooting.

Lootas could be fun that is always the case.

I use a Kan Wall and have had great success with Shoota Boyz. I recommend the Big Shootas with them not only for the 3 shots per and better wound numbers, but also for their range. You can start harrassing units from 36" out.

I prefer to pay the exter 5 points for KMBs on my kans. No Gets Hot! and AP 2 in my meta with a lot of termies helps a lot.

See if your opponents will let you run Grot tanks, and convert buggies to have grots to open up your fast attack choices. I don't think anyone is going to be too upset seeing 4 grots on a skorcha or rokkit buggie instead of an ork if you use the propper BS.

Actually, how often do you guys shoot with the kans?

I used to be a strong advocate of rokkits on kans, but after few years of playing with them, i realize i run my kans too often for the rokkits to be useful. I almost always rely on the lootas to do the shooting and killing of light transports.

Have look at this tactica:

http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/?showtopic=48797

It contains everything you will ever need to know about gretchin.

Warning: Three hours of your life might disappear by clicking that link.

Kan walls are amazing.

Grotzooka are amazing swiss army knife weapon. 2 small blast, doesnt scatter much even if Bs3, can even harm vehicles.
And they are decent in close combat, DCCW is still scary even if its Grot pilot.

LunaHound wrote:Kan walls are amazing.And they are decent in close combat, DCCW is still scary even if its Grot pilot.

I actually love getting them into close combat. Not that great against ws5, but really good against the standard ws4. Most people don't realize that they have DCCW. Getting kanz into melee is basically the "third wave" of my list - they are great for tying things up, particularly those scary blood angel dreads, whose special ability has no effect on Kans.

Agreed, kans can be an excellent unit to bog down others. Not to mention, they are every bit as good at popping vehicles as any dread is. Im failing to see how Grots have a mobility issue over boyz though, they both move 6 inches, can both run, and have the same size for unit caps. But, I personally cannot advocate the use of grots, I can see how it would be fun, and if thats all your looking for then by all means go for it. Just dont expect to win a whole lot. Youll be relying greatly on the kans and Lootas, because grots will only tie a unit up briefly, and then their terrible Ld will fail them and they will flee. Where as a typical Ork build, pretty much revolves around the basic Ork boy, actually being a pretty solid troop choice.

KingCracker wrote: Im failing to see how Grots have a mobility issue over boyz though, they both move 6 inches, can both run, and have the same size for unit caps.

they cannot use the waagh which means no fleet on the initial charge. And that extra round of not being able to assault can be very painfull as you'r guys are in rapid fire range nad all.

Serder wrote:Grabba stick onyl works vs IC IIRC. And a littel metal pole vs a DCCW....

That little metal pole "can cause a single model in base contact to lose an attack (to a minimum of 1)." Any model.

A Kan wall is actually a shooting army in disguise. You need to have plenty of Lootas and tons of Shoota boyz with PKlaw Nobs in them to have any chance of winning IMHO. In many cases you're actually sitting out there at mid-field shooting the enemy to death and daring them to move towards you...if they do then you counter-assault them with your Kans, Dreads & Boyz. If they don't move forward then you try to out shoot them and simply capture the objectives.

If you don't play that way and simply charge forward in a lot of situations the opponent will be the one who simply moves back and blasts you and then finally initiates the assault when it best suits them. Because of this, it is absolutely essential to make your Kan wall into a shooting army with that nasty core of CC provided by all the walkers.

There are too many units that will tear right through all your Kans and Dreads with relative ease. You need the counter-punch of the Orks with the Nob to keep those types of enemy units honest, so you cannot rely on Gretchin to be your only Troops choices. If you want to stick with a Grot theme, have a Grot mounted on the shoulders of your Boyz Nobs given 'em orders!

I personally always take Grotzookas because they're cheaper and I find Rokkits to be way too unreliable at taking out armor anyway, and if you take them then you're tempted to try for that lucky shot when really you should be running with your Kans. The fact is, if you're facing an enemy mech army that is just sitting back and shooting you and you can't punch them with your Lootas very well (like a Guard army) then you NEED to be running every turn until you reach their lines. Having Rokkits dilutes that purpose and give you a mostly false hope that you might be able to knock out a vehicle through fire...but realistically it just doesn't happen BS3 9 S8 attacks with a 24" range just doesn't get the job done. You're just much better off running in most cases and putting pressure on your opponent.


So you must take 2 KFF Meks to have any chance at doing this. I take 9 Kans with Grotzookas & 2 Dreads with 2 Big Shootas (just to go with my shooty army theme, and because its cheap). I also take extra armor on the Dreads so they can always keep up with the Mek and Kans.

Then I take 2-3 20 man Shoota Boyz mobs with a PKlaw Nob (depending on the point size of the game) and a single Grot squad to fill up the last few points and sit back on an objective.

I then take quite a few Lootas as they really are the key to the whole army working.

The big choice with Lootas is whether to drop one unit and try to squeeze in a minimum sized Nob squad in order to get a Battlewagon. If you take this, you can drop out the Nobs and put a 19 man Ork unit into the Wagon along with the KFF and this gives you a huge boost in what the KFF can cover and gives you access to a Deff-Rolla which gives you some much needed extra AV14 punching ability (which is a real problem with the army otherwise, needing to kill Land Raiders only with Kan/Dread CC attacks).

If you're not taking a Battlewagon and you don't need 3 Loota units, you can also think about taking Snikrot in larger point games. He certainly screws with your opponent's head, but is actually not that great in most situations. I've found him really to be too many points to be worth it. I'd rather plump for the Battlewagon instead.

The final 'optional' thing you can consider putting in are Deff Koptas. Having 1 or 2 with Buzzsaws outflanking can, like Snikrot to a lesser extent mess with opponent's mind. And if you are getting first turn you can get those auto-assaults against enemy vehicles before they can move using your scout move, which can be totally worth the suicide mission in some cases.


And that's it really. Those are your only real choices for the army IMHO if you really want it to work:

HQ
• KFF Meks

Elites
• Lootas, Lootas & more Lootas!
• optional: Nobs to get a Battlewagon w/ Deffrolla
• optional: Snikrot with small Kommando unit

Troops
• 20 man Shoota Boyz units with Big Shootas & PKlaw Nob with Bosspole (or 19 man for one of them if you're taking a Battlewagon)
• Smallish Gretchin unit (10-15 grots) to fill out your extra points at the end

Fast Attack
• Koptas with Buzzsaws, typically in separate units. Can get away with just Rokkits on the Koptas if points are scarce, but they lose a lot of potency this way.

Heavy Support
• Max Kans with Grotzookas (Rokkits are too expensive and really tempt you to break from what you should be doing)
• 2 Dreads with Extra Armor (what you arm them with is up to you, but I like 2 Big Shootas)

How do rokkit buggies work with a kan wall? The kans are the anvil and the buggies the flanking hammers. Its kind of an over saturation of light vehicles. The enemy either tries to kill the kff walkers (which are super dangerous the closer they get) or kill the buggies shooting at their side armor.

Anyone have any experience with it?

You are basically just moving them with the army and use the additional speed to hide them/get them in better shooting positions. Racing them ahead of the army won't do you any good.

Having fielding Grot Tanks, they actually work really well, and are, in many ways, comparable to rokkit buggies, outside of being 210pts for a four tank squadron (with a kommanda), and the fact that they can move a potential 2"-12" move, and still fire all their weapons. In addition, they are rather tricky to nail down in CC, since their movement means you'll often need 6's to hit them.

5 rokkits hitting on bs3 is pretty rokkin'

But yes, though they have their own "ork flickerfields", I'd prefer to keep them close to my main push, until I have to move them out to hit side (or even rear) armour.

Buggies are fantastic in a Kanwall.

I run Kans, Dreads, and Buggies, backed up by all my boys and lootas. The Buggies help your kans from getting assaulted by units that you want to avoid, by sitting in front of the Kans, and needing 6s to be hit in CC, thus allowing the Kans/Dreads/Boys to counterassault at will. Plus, the added Rokkits is a huge boon, as is the ability to sudeenly launch your buggies 12" out of "wall" formation and start poppoing side armor.

The annoying thing for opponents is taht they are staring at 11x AV11-12 walkers and 9x AV10 Buggies, all with a 4+ cover save, if you setup and move properly. And of course, that is not counting all the boys and lootas behind them.

Thanks for all the feedback. For the Kans/Dreads, is it best to give them armour plates, etc? Or just keep them as bare as possible?
I suppose I have the same question for the Nobs of the Ork Boy units, and Big Meks. Obviously the KFF is the way to go, but any other equipment that is absolutely necessary?

Buttlerthepug wrote:Thanks for all the feedback. For the Kans/Dreads, is it best to give them armour plates, etc? Or just keep them as bare as possible?
I suppose I have the same question for the Nobs of the Ork Boy units, and Big Meks. Obviously the KFF is the way to go, but any other equipment that is absolutely necessary?

armour plates:
Kans do not need them as a vehicle squadron treats all stunned results as shaken (which is what the paltes allow you to do). Dreads, however are not in a squadron and are pretty bad shots, so you want them in CC ASAP, here plates are a pretty good choice. I've seen some people put plates on one kan per squadron as to allow it to prevent stunned results once it's brethren are dead, but these 10 points can be invested better in boyz or lootas.

Orks boyz:
Foot slogging ork boyz should be in mob of minimum 20. Otherwise, you'll lack the numbers to do required damage once you get in CC. The nob leading the orks should ALWAYS have that PK. BP is pretty nice as it let's you reroll the LD test once you stop being fearless. 'eavy armor can be used, but only if you have spare points at the end.

Big Meks:
Keep it at a minimum. You don't want your big mek in CC as he is just a Nob that cost more in terms of stats and can be singled out... so KFF and that is it.

Serder wrote:

Buttlerthepug wrote:Thanks for all the feedback. For the Kans/Dreads, is it best to give them armour plates, etc? Or just keep them as bare as possible?
I suppose I have the same question for the Nobs of the Ork Boy units, and Big Meks. Obviously the KFF is the way to go, but any other equipment that is absolutely necessary?

armour plates:
Kans do not need them as a vehicle squadron treats all stunned results as shaken (which is what the paltes allow you to do). Dreads, however are not in a squadron and are pretty bad shots, so you want them in CC ASAP, here plates are a pretty good choice. I've seen some people put plates on one kan per squadron as to allow it to prevent stunned results once it's brethren are dead, but these 10 points can be invested better in boyz or lootas.

Orks boyz:
Foot slogging ork boyz should be in mob of minimum 20. Otherwise, you'll lack the numbers to do required damage once you get in CC. The nob leading the orks should ALWAYS have that PK. BP is pretty nice as it let's you reroll the LD test once you stop being fearless. 'eavy armor can be used, but only if you have spare points at the end.

Big Meks:
Keep it at a minimum. You don't want your big mek in CC as he is just a Nob that cost more in terms of stats and can be singled out... so KFF and that is it.

I disagree about the Mek,.
I usually try to find the 25 points for a burna and armor. Yes, typically you want to keep him out of combat, however, he will be forced to get into btb with an enemy model, if his unit ever get assaulted. The same is true if need to assault with the mob to which he is curently attached. In these cases, the 4+ armor save can be the difference between losing or keeping your KFF. As for the burna, well, S5 I4 PW attacks (S4 I3, if you get assaulted) also do a great job of keeping him alive, since the burna is a great way to remove PF wielding models that get into btb with him, before they get a chance to ID him. Those 25 points have saved me many times, since keeping that KFF is often the difference between winning and losing.

Alerian wrote:
I disagree about the Mek,.
I usually try to find the 25 points for a burna and armor. Yes, typically you want to keep him out of combat, however, he will be forced to get into btb with an enemy model, if his unit ever get assaulted. The same is true if need to assault with the mob to which he is curently attached. In these cases, the 4+ armor save can be the difference between losing or keeping your KFF. As for the burna, well, S5 I4 PW attacks (S4 I3, if you get assaulted) also do a great job of keeping him alive, since the burna is a great way to remove PF wielding models that get into btb with him, before they get a chance to ID him. Those 25 points have saved me many times, since keeping that KFF is often the difference between winning and losing.

True as long as you don't play vs a faster army than you. I my experience vs my BA friend, my bigmek gets singled out because ge gets to choose the assaults and he focus more than enough power weapons attack on him to kill hm.

If you play vs armies that have the same init or lower init than him, go for the upg, vs sms, specially that the pfs are mostly UCsthat cannot be singled out, I usually keep him as low as possible because I know he will get singled out b4 he can even attack.

Alerian wrote:
I disagree about the Mek,.
I usually try to find the 25 points for a burna and armor. Yes, typically you want to keep him out of combat, however, he will be forced to get into btb with an enemy model, if his unit ever get assaulted. The same is true if need to assault with the mob to which he is curently attached. In these cases, the 4+ armor save can be the difference between losing or keeping your KFF. As for the burna, well, S5 I4 PW attacks (S4 I3, if you get assaulted) also do a great job of keeping him alive, since the burna is a great way to remove PF wielding models that get into btb with him, before they get a chance to ID him. Those 25 points have saved me many times, since keeping that KFF is often the difference between winning and losing.

Nothing you're saying is wrong at all, the big problem I always face is that with a Kan Wall army you're always talking about a big set number of points: KFF Meks, Kans, Dreads, boyz. So anything on top of that are fairly important extras like Lootas, for example. So anytime you increase the points of anything you're basically pulling Lootas out of the army. Yeah, Lootas are expensive, but you also know that they tend to have a big impact in almost every game (as long as you don't roll like crap). So 25 points (or 50 if you equip both Meks like this) means 3 less Loota models, which is a BIG swing in the effectiveness of a Loota squad.

Have I lost my big Meks a bunch of times because of not having the 4+ save on him? Most definitely. However, typically by the time I get into combat with the Meks, I usually don't need his services all that much anymore. There are certainly times when it hasn't worked out and I had wished I still had my Mek, but I just don't think its worth losing Loota models for.

Now, if you're playing a 2,000 point game, then yeah, I'd say its not too horrible an idea...but even then 50 points is a lot to spend on items that may or may not actually be useful given how the game plays out.

Agree to yakface. I usually take the burna a top priority when wasting spare points, just so the big mek gets a ranged weapon. However, neither the burna, nor the 'eavy armor have ever saved his life. In combat your opponent will usually pile all possible attacks on him, so even if you single out a PF(if possible at all), the regular guys will kill him. You are better off keeping him away from combat by having him somwhere in the middle of the squad.

Alright so how well would this work for 2k?

Big Mek- KFF- 85
Big Mek- KFF- 85

15 Lootas- 3 Meks- 225
15 Lootas- 3 Meks- 225
15 Lootas- 3 Meks- 225

Deff Dread- 2 Kustom Mega Blasters, Armour Plates- 115
Deff Dread- 2 Kustom Mega Blasters, Armour Plates- 115
20 Ork Boyz- Shootas, 2 Big Shootas, Nob w/ PK and BP- 170
20 Ork Boyz- Shootas, 2 Big Shootas, Nob w/ PK and BP- 170
23 Gretchin- 2 Runthers- 89
23 Gretchin- 2 Runthers- 89

3 Killa Kans- Grotzookas- 135
3 Killa Kans- Grotzookas- 135
3 Killa Kans- Grotzookas- 135

Total- 1998