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So I've been playing Ultramarines out of the vanilla codex for a couple of years now and I figured I'd see what Dakka had to say about the HQ's and the best Ultramarines Army options that there were. I use Tigurius from time to time with some veterans but more often than not I use Sicarius. Calgar just seems like an awful lot of points and, although good, just does not deliver the punch I feel he should.

When I compare Sicarius to Vulcan and Lysander I certainly feel like he is lacking a bit, but perhaps Dakka will have some different opinions or tactics.

I don't have an army list I can post that I've used recently, I usually build on the go and try to have fun but I can say I have 30 tacticals, 3 drop pods, 2 razorback/rhinos 2 predators/razorback/rhinos (magnetized), 3 Iron Clads, 1 Landraider Crusader (hurricane bolter variant), 3 Vindicators, 10 terminators (5x Lightning 5x TH/SH), Calgar, Sicarius, Tigurius, Cassius, 9 Scouts (1 Rocket 1 HBolter), Telion, Chronus, 9-10 honour guard, 5 Command Squad, 10 Legion of The Damned.

The only real area I am lacking is Land Speeders, I just don't really like them. I will concede the fact they carry a couple of good weapons and can deliver their weapons quickly, I just don't personally care for them, hence why I don't have them =/

Anyways feel free to comment, let me know your thoughts/concerns/opinions/tactics in regards to the Ultramarines stuff specifically and if there is anything they can actually do to be competitive.

I would have to go with Vulkan, ALOT of hammers and melta FTW!

sub-zero wrote:I would have to go with Vulkan, ALOT of hammers and melta FTW!

You forgot flamers, you fool!

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

sub-zero wrote:I would have to go with Vulkan, ALOT of hammers and melta FTW!

You forgot flamers, you fool!

OMG! Your right! Flamers toooooooooo!

Jstncloud wrote:
Anyways feel free to comment, let me know your thoughts/concerns/opinions/tactics in regards to the Ultramarines stuff specifically and if there is anything they can actually do to be competitive.

sub-zero wrote:I would have to go with Vulkan, ALOT of hammers and melta FTW!

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

sub-zero wrote:I would have to go with Vulkan, ALOT of hammers and melta FTW!

You forgot flamers, you fool!

I am fully aware that Vulcan is good, the purpose of the thread is to identify what strengths the 'Ultramarines' HQs might have for competitive play. I don't need to be re-informed that Vulcan has a 2+ armor save, 3+ invuln, relic blade (the spear?), a combi-flamer (might be perma, cannot remember) and that he makes all meltas and flamers twin-linked and Thunder Hammers master crafted. It is pretty well known he is a beast, I'd like to see what others have to say about the 4 Ultramarine HQs in regards to tactics and army building.

Jstncloud wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:
Anyways feel free to comment, let me know your thoughts/concerns/opinions/tactics in regards to the Ultramarines stuff specifically and if there is anything they can actually do to be competitive.

sub-zero wrote:I would have to go with Vulkan, ALOT of hammers and melta FTW!

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

sub-zero wrote:I would have to go with Vulkan, ALOT of hammers and melta FTW!

You forgot flamers, you fool!

I am fully aware that Vulcan is good, the purpose of the thread is to identify what strengths the 'Ultramarines' HQs might have for competitive play. I don't need to be re-informed that Vulcan has a 2+ armor save, 3+ invuln, relic blade (the spear?), a combi-flamer (might be perma, cannot remember) and that he makes all meltas and flamers twin-linked and Thunder Hammers master crafted. It is pretty well known he is a beast, I'd like to see what others have to say about the 4 Ultramarine HQs in regards to tactics and army building.

Do you have a SM codex? you do? good, read it. LOL I'm just kidding.

Jstncloud wrote:I am fully aware that Vulcan is good, the purpose of the thread is to identify what strengths the 'Ultramarines' HQs might have for competitive play. I don't need to be re-informed that Vulcan has a 2+ armor save, 3+ invuln, relic blade (the spear?), a combi-flamer (might be perma, cannot remember) and that he makes all meltas and flamers twin-linked and Thunder Hammers master crafted. It is pretty well known he is a beast, I'd like to see what others have to say about the 4 Ultramarine HQs in regards to tactics and army building.

Honestly, the best Ultramarines HQ would probably be Calgar. However, it could be a small Ultramarines force being led by Vulkan whilst other Marines fight the enemy, or something along the lines of that.

Tigurius is too expensive to have no invul and 3+ armor. Cassius is a nice deal for a chaplain. Calgar is just too expensive to bring to a normal game usually and you need lots of infantry to maximize his abilities and tacs struggle against everything out there currently. Sicarius has potential, but he's outshone by several other armies and even his own codex's HQs as they can do things he does better. Chronus is very expensive to make a tank BS 5 and anything that's not a landraider is too damn fragile and everything that is a landraider is already melta bait. Telion is ok for his placed shots and rending. He's the poor man's Vindicare. Also he'll save you on camo cloaks. But then you have to take scouts... So yeah, the "Ultramarine" codex and it's many many characters, that aren't worth a damn.

I've found in my experience that the Vanilla book is best played as a gunline. When you use Vulkan, the weakness of the book (close combat for units that are not TH/SS Termies, which is basically the entire army) becomes a severe crutch, and you have a max of two turns before your entire army is placed into combat where you auto-lose. T4/3+ can only do so much.

EDIT: So what do I mean by a gunline? I mean MSU Marines in LasPlas Razors with Rifleman Dreads, Typhoon Land Speeders, and ML Devastators. Dakka Preds are cheap for a reason: They're terrible! Autolas Preds suffer from being only able to do anti-transport, while MLs can do anything. The one weakness of a Vanilla gunline however, is that you cannot take out AV14 reliably.

sub-zero wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:
Anyways feel free to comment, let me know your thoughts/concerns/opinions/tactics in regards to the Ultramarines stuff specifically and if there is anything they can actually do to be competitive.

sub-zero wrote:I would have to go with Vulkan, ALOT of hammers and melta FTW!

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

sub-zero wrote:I would have to go with Vulkan, ALOT of hammers and melta FTW!

You forgot flamers, you fool!

I am fully aware that Vulcan is good, the purpose of the thread is to identify what strengths the 'Ultramarines' HQs might have for competitive play. I don't need to be re-informed that Vulcan has a 2+ armor save, 3+ invuln, relic blade (the spear?), a combi-flamer (might be perma, cannot remember) and that he makes all meltas and flamers twin-linked and Thunder Hammers master crafted. It is pretty well known he is a beast, I'd like to see what others have to say about the 4 Ultramarine HQs in regards to tactics and army building.

Do you have a SM codex? you do? good, read it. LOL I'm just kidding.

I do, which should be pretty obvious given my posts. No disrespect here though, please don't post in my thread anymore. I clearly laid out where I wanted the conversation to be and neither of your posts were anywhere in the ballpark of useful to the topic at hand.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:I am fully aware that Vulcan is good, the purpose of the thread is to identify what strengths the 'Ultramarines' HQs might have for competitive play. I don't need to be re-informed that Vulcan has a 2+ armor save, 3+ invuln, relic blade (the spear?), a combi-flamer (might be perma, cannot remember) and that he makes all meltas and flamers twin-linked and Thunder Hammers master crafted. It is pretty well known he is a beast, I'd like to see what others have to say about the 4 Ultramarine HQs in regards to tactics and army building.

Honestly, the best Ultramarines HQ would probably be Calgar. However, it could be a small Ultramarines force being led by Vulkan whilst other Marines fight the enemy, or something along the lines of that.

"Hey use Vulkan with your Ultramarines" is hardly ideal for the questions I am asking, furthermore Calgar is over priced.

Surtur wrote:Tigurius is too expensive to have no invul and 3+ armor. Cassius is a nice deal for a chaplain. Calgar is just too expensive to bring to a normal game usually and you need lots of infantry to maximize his abilities and tacs struggle against everything out there currently. Sicarius has potential, but he's outshone by several other armies and even his own codex's HQs as they can do things he does better. Chronus is very expensive to make a tank BS 5 and anything that's not a landraider is too damn fragile and everything that is a landraider is already melta bait. Telion is ok for his placed shots and rending. He's the poor man's Vindicare. Also he'll save you on camo cloaks. But then you have to take scouts... So yeah, the "Ultramarine" codex and it's many many characters, that aren't worth a damn.

That was basically the same conclusions that I myself have come to but I figured there might have been something I overlooked. I've put Telion to some good use though, for his cost (factoring in what you save in regards to camo cloaks) he is not too bad. Thanks for the input.

AresX8 wrote:I've found in my experience that the Vanilla book is best played as a gunline. When you use Vulkan, the weakness of the book (close combat for units that are not TH/SS Termies, which is basically the entire army) becomes a severe crutch, and you have a max of two turns before your entire army is placed into combat where you auto-lose. T4/3+ can only do so much.

EDIT: So what do I mean by a gunline? I mean MSU Marines in LasPlas Razors with Rifleman Dreads, Typhoon Land Speeders, and ML Devastators. Dakka Preds are cheap for a reason: They're terrible! Autolas Preds suffer from being only able to do anti-transport, while MLs can do anything. The one weakness of a Vanilla gunline however, is that you cannot take out AV14 reliably.

I've not run any basic predators in awhile but the Dakka one was the only variant I think I ever really used Chronus in. It saves 15 pts because he basically gives you extra armor, however the main reason I did this was because of the sheer number of shots the tank puts out. bs5 with 1 TL-Lascannon and 2 normal Lascannons is not ideal, however bs5 with an autocannon, 2 HBs, and possibly a storm bolter on top, not super awesome but you have way more shots to hit with.

As for the rest, I usually run a heavy drop pod army hence the Ironclads. They can drop in with a Heavy Flamer for some infantry killage or if near a vehicle they have a melta. On top of that they have a av 13 which is good and 2 hunter killers, and while those are not great, the turn he lands he can unload a nice volley of fire into something. From then on he functions much like a furioso, try to kill more than he is worth or create pressure in the opponents backfield while I push forward with other units.

Another goal of this thread was to hopefully see some different tactics for Ultramarines because when compared to Vulkan, Lysander, BA, SW, and so on they just seem terrible.

Jstncloud wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:I am fully aware that Vulcan is good, the purpose of the thread is to identify what strengths the 'Ultramarines' HQs might have for competitive play. I don't need to be re-informed that Vulcan has a 2+ armor save, 3+ invuln, relic blade (the spear?), a combi-flamer (might be perma, cannot remember) and that he makes all meltas and flamers twin-linked and Thunder Hammers master crafted. It is pretty well known he is a beast, I'd like to see what others have to say about the 4 Ultramarine HQs in regards to tactics and army building.

Honestly, the best Ultramarines HQ would probably be Calgar. However, it could be a small Ultramarines force being led by Vulkan whilst other Marines fight the enemy, or something along the lines of that.

"Hey use Vulkan with your Ultramarines" is hardly ideal for the questions I am asking, furthermore Calgar is over priced.

I am only acting from information I've gained from other players. As far as I can tell, Calgar is best for large point games, Sicarius is considered a little bit weak, Tiguirius seems like an awful lot to invest in a character that can quite easily be one-shotted with a krak missile, and Tellion, as said above, is like a slightly worse version of a vindicare.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:I am fully aware that Vulcan is good, the purpose of the thread is to identify what strengths the 'Ultramarines' HQs might have for competitive play. I don't need to be re-informed that Vulcan has a 2+ armor save, 3+ invuln, relic blade (the spear?), a combi-flamer (might be perma, cannot remember) and that he makes all meltas and flamers twin-linked and Thunder Hammers master crafted. It is pretty well known he is a beast, I'd like to see what others have to say about the 4 Ultramarine HQs in regards to tactics and army building.

Honestly, the best Ultramarines HQ would probably be Calgar. However, it could be a small Ultramarines force being led by Vulkan whilst other Marines fight the enemy, or something along the lines of that.

"Hey use Vulkan with your Ultramarines" is hardly ideal for the questions I am asking, furthermore Calgar is over priced.

I am only acting from information I've gained from other players. As far as I can tell, Calgar is best for large point games, Sicarius is considered a little bit weak, Tiguirius seems like an awful lot to invest in a character that can quite easily be one-shotted with a krak missile, and Tellion, as said above, is like a slightly worse version of a vindicare.

Telion is good, but in no way 'slightly' worse then a Vindicare, lets go with considerably worse lol. 5bs vs 8bs, 1w vs 2w, 2 shots rending 1 shot special ammo oober destrcutive I kill everything Vindicare.

The rest is pretty much spot on, I usually don't use Calgar unless it is a higher point game, even then I sometimes don't. I was hoping someone else had some army build that was somewhat competitive with one of the UM leaders rather than the standard Vulkan or Lysander army list.

I don't play Ultramarines myself, but I play against them often and what I have I seen is mostly a gunline army. As mentioned, lots of small squads in Razorbacks, Riflemen Dreads, and Predators of both variants, one all Lascannons and the other 2 Autocanon and Heavy Bolters. As for HQs, I almost never see any of the characters, usually my opponent uses Librarians or possibly a Captain, but they're always cheap.

I'd put the best HQ's as Librarian, then captain. For the named HQ's I think Cassius is a absolute bargain compared to a normal chappo, and Sicarious can be used for some nifty tricks. Calgar is alot of bang for not too much buck and Tigurius lacks an Invul.

I think the best way to run Ultramarines is a gunline with 1 maybe 2 (in large games) counter attack units (aka TH/SS terms). There are a variety of units in the 'dex that put out solid firepower for bargain prices and cheap weapons on Tac squads. These will always in my experience outperform a marine army that tries to buy all the toys the can for their units. Rifleman dreads, Typhoon speeders, Dakka/autolas preds, thunderfire cannons, razorbacks are all cheap and simple. TH/SS terms are 200p and don't need any upgrades. Using the cheap and cheerful units of C:SM you can produce a variety of gunline list that work well- good number of units on the board (Important IMO for marines) and lots of effective and cheap firepower.

Librarian is the best Vanilla book HQ.

And, you can use Vulkan/Kantor/Shrike etc. As Ultramarines Captains, just design the model with Ultramarines things. UltraVulkan can have a large powersword, a heavyflamer, and the cloak from the captain box. Call him the Captain of the 3rd (Master of the Armoury) and bam, he's UltraVulkan.

But, I'd use none of the Ultramarines special characters outside of a really large game (Calgar would ride with my TS/SS Termies) or Apocalypse. Telion could be useful if you use scouts, with his BS6/WS5 and allocating his own wounds.

Crazyterran wrote:Librarian is the best Vanilla book HQ.

And, you can use Vulkan/Kantor/Shrike etc. As Ultramarines Captains, just design the model with Ultramarines things. UltraVulkan can have a large powersword, a heavyflamer, and the cloak from the captain box. Call him the Captain of the 3rd (Master of the Armoury) and bam, he's UltraVulkan.

But, I'd use none of the Ultramarines special characters outside of a really large game (Calgar would ride with my TS/SS Termies) or Apocalypse. Telion could be useful if you use scouts, with his BS6/WS5 and allocating his own wounds.

Point of the thread is to identify 'Ultramarine' options without using the non-Ultra HQs as count-as commanders.

Jihallah wrote:I'd put the best HQ's as Librarian, then captain. For the named HQ's I think Cassius is a absolute bargain compared to a normal chappo, and Sicarious can be used for some nifty tricks. Calgar is alot of bang for not too much buck and Tigurius lacks an Invul.

I think the best way to run Ultramarines is a gunline with 1 maybe 2 (in large games) counter attack units (aka TH/SS terms). There are a variety of units in the 'dex that put out solid firepower for bargain prices and cheap weapons on Tac squads. These will always in my experience outperform a marine army that tries to buy all the toys the can for their units. Rifleman dreads, Typhoon speeders, Dakka/autolas preds, thunderfire cannons, razorbacks are all cheap and simple. TH/SS terms are 200p and don't need any upgrades. Using the cheap and cheerful units of C:SM you can produce a variety of gunline list that work well- good number of units on the board (Important IMO for marines) and lots of effective and cheap firepower.

What is your opinion on Vindicators? I got a trio built the other day to use with my Codex Marines and aside from their range I like them.

Regarding the Ultramarine HQ special characters, it's kind of a mixed bag, very dependent on the size of your list.

Calgar is fantastic in Apocalypse-sized games, essentially allowing you to completely ignore morale for all your marine infantry. He also has a chapter master's orbital bombardment, which is handy for popping medium-large troop concentrations or shaking up parking lots across the board. Finally, he's a very resilient CC beatstick, like most marine characters, and can stand up to almost anything else in the game for quite some time if necessary. Unfortunately, he costs an arm and a leg, even if not using all those Honor Guard squads he unlocks, which cripples any list that takes him in small games. I'd stay away from him if you're going anything less than 2,000 points, and pay careful attention to your model count even if you're going higher.

Sicarius is a tooled-up Captain with a couple special rules, but he is also very expensive, again making him unsuited to small lists. On the plus side, giving one Tactical squad a selection of universal special rules is very nice, and Rites of Battle is unique among the army-wide modifiers in that it does not replace Combat Tactics, making Sicarius a very attractive second HQ option in large Apocalypse-sized lists that already use a different character's Chapter Tactics.

Sadly, Tigurius is one of the worst HQs in the codex, costing an obscene number of points and coming to the fight under-equipped. No built-in invulnerable save means you'll almost always be spending one of your three powers on Force Dome, and should you fail the psychic test or get shut down by an enemy hood, Tigurius is almost guaranteed to die in the following turn. The wide selection of powers is nice, but most of them are PSAs or not usable in assault, which is exactly where Tigurius most needs help. Stay away from this character, he's a trap. Take a regular terminator Librarian with a storm shield instead and save 90 points.

By contrast, Cassius is one of the best bargains in the whole codex, bringing an astonishing array of wargear and special rules to the table. He's essentially the offspring of a regular Chaplain and a Plague Marine, having all of the former's rules and signature Crozius, as well as toughness 6(!) and FNP. Of course, this isn't enough dakka for him, so he also requisitioned himself a master-crafted combi-flamer with hellfire rounds for more shooting threat. My advice on Cassius is the opposite of what I said for Tigurius: If you want to take a Chaplain, always take Cassius first, he just brings that much more value.

Jstncloud wrote:
What is your opinion on Vindicators? I got a trio built the other day to use with my Codex Marines and aside from their range I like them.

Good, but better in more aggressive marine lists. You can get more mileage in a gunline with preds than vindicators. Then again, In smaller (1000-1500) games I often go 2 typhoons 2 rifleman dreads and a AC/Las pred, so after the obligatory tac marines etc sometimes a pair of vindicators can work well. But generally, pred's do better, mainly because they aren't so worried about immobilized and weapon destroyed results, and don't have to move up to get a shot, exposing their paper thin side armor. The side armor thing, and that the vindi is horrified by 2/3 of the results on the chart makes the predator just that bit better, if lacking an enormous S10 pie plate of death

sicarius is the only HQ other then Calgar for ultramarines. If you want to have a fluffy list it is these two. If you are a waac gamer you should get vulkan so amazing for a good price.

What about Tigurius and Cassius? They seem to be Ultramarine HQ's.

And of course the unnamed captain/librarian/chaplain seem like they would be a part of an ultramarine army.

I think its pretty clear from the OP's posts that he doesn't need to be told "get vulkan" any more.

I always liked Tigerius. Even though he's not much of a fighter, controlling reserves is good, and he's always got the appropriate psychic power. I'm for it.

A generic Librarian is the best HQ. The special characters are all overpriced for what they bring to the army except for Cassius.

Of course Chaplains aren't an HQ worth taking in 5th edition, since their power only boosts melee ability, and Space Marines suck at close combat.

I will not mention he of the pointy spear and large flamey thing.

My second favourite HQ is the Space Marine Captain on bike, because he moves bikes into the troop slot which gives you a completely new army (that is, unfortunately, very expensive to buy).

Jihallah wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:
What is your opinion on Vindicators? I got a trio built the other day to use with my Codex Marines and aside from their range I like them.

Good, but better in more aggressive marine lists. You can get more mileage in a gunline with preds than vindicators. Then again, In smaller (1000-1500) games I often go 2 typhoons 2 rifleman dreads and a AC/Las pred, so after the obligatory tac marines etc sometimes a pair of vindicators can work well. But generally, pred's do better, mainly because they aren't so worried about immobilized and weapon destroyed results, and don't have to move up to get a shot, exposing their paper thin side armor. The side armor thing, and that the vindi is horrified by 2/3 of the results on the chart makes the predator just that bit better, if lacking an enormous S10 pie plate of death

And most terrifying in BA.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Space Marines suck at close combat

That is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard. They are better than most standard troops, i.e Guardians, Guardsmen, Fire Warriors, Kabalite (Not really Wyches, I can understand) Necron Warriors, Gaunts...

The point being is that although they aren't really ott in combat, they can put up a good fight against most enemies.

Chaplains are definitely worth taking in an assault based army, and occasionally you could join one up to some Terminators, or an Assault Squad. Not only is it a power weapon, but rerolls to hit are pretty amazing. Although once again, this is a field best suited for BA *sigh*

Sorry if I didn't help much, but I just needed to point that out.

Jihallah wrote:What about Tigurius and Cassius? They seem to be Ultramarine HQ's.

Whoops totally forgot about those guys but they are great HQ too.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

Jihallah wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:
What is your opinion on Vindicators? I got a trio built the other day to use with my Codex Marines and aside from their range I like them.

Good, but better in more aggressive marine lists. You can get more mileage in a gunline with preds than vindicators. Then again, In smaller (1000-1500) games I often go 2 typhoons 2 rifleman dreads and a AC/Las pred, so after the obligatory tac marines etc sometimes a pair of vindicators can work well. But generally, pred's do better, mainly because they aren't so worried about immobilized and weapon destroyed results, and don't have to move up to get a shot, exposing their paper thin side armor. The side armor thing, and that the vindi is horrified by 2/3 of the results on the chart makes the predator just that bit better, if lacking an enormous S10 pie plate of death

And most terrifying in BA.

For the umpteenth time- Ultramarines. We are talking about Ultramarines. Yes, we too are on the internet and know that preds/rhinos/razorbacks/vindicators are better in BA. Yes we know Vulkan makes codex marines more competitive worthy. The OP has made it pretty darn clear he wants to talk about smurfs- just smurfs. And not how big a smurfs wang is compared to whatever chapter.

Jihallah wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

Jihallah wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:
What is your opinion on Vindicators? I got a trio built the other day to use with my Codex Marines and aside from their range I like them.

Good, but better in more aggressive marine lists. You can get more mileage in a gunline with preds than vindicators. Then again, In smaller (1000-1500) games I often go 2 typhoons 2 rifleman dreads and a AC/Las pred, so after the obligatory tac marines etc sometimes a pair of vindicators can work well. But generally, pred's do better, mainly because they aren't so worried about immobilized and weapon destroyed results, and don't have to move up to get a shot, exposing their paper thin side armor. The side armor thing, and that the vindi is horrified by 2/3 of the results on the chart makes the predator just that bit better, if lacking an enormous S10 pie plate of death

And most terrifying in BA.

For the umpteenth time- Ultramarines. We are talking about Ultramarines. Yes, we too are on the internet and know that preds/rhinos/razorbacks/vindicators are better in BA. Yes we know Vulkan makes codex marines more competitive worthy. The OP has made it pretty darn clear he wants to talk about smurfs- just smurfs. And not how big a smurfs wang is compared to whatever chapter.

YES, I understand that. My only problem is that, although there are more Ultramarine characters than others in the codex, I just find them rather awkward. Seriously, if he wants a good HQ for the Smurfs, he is best off picking a generic character, i.e a Captain, Chaplain or Librarian (If you do get a libby, make sure to try and give him an invul.)

Also, codex SM is just nerfed compared to a specific chapter codex. I hate to tell you this, but a few people would agree. Don't get me wrong, C:SM is good, just it is improved when you get another codex.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

Jihallah wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

Jihallah wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:
What is your opinion on Vindicators? I got a trio built the other day to use with my Codex Marines and aside from their range I like them.

Good, but better in more aggressive marine lists. You can get more mileage in a gunline with preds than vindicators. Then again, In smaller (1000-1500) games I often go 2 typhoons 2 rifleman dreads and a AC/Las pred, so after the obligatory tac marines etc sometimes a pair of vindicators can work well. But generally, pred's do better, mainly because they aren't so worried about immobilized and weapon destroyed results, and don't have to move up to get a shot, exposing their paper thin side armor. The side armor thing, and that the vindi is horrified by 2/3 of the results on the chart makes the predator just that bit better, if lacking an enormous S10 pie plate of death

And most terrifying in BA.

For the umpteenth time- Ultramarines. We are talking about Ultramarines. Yes, we too are on the internet and know that preds/rhinos/razorbacks/vindicators are better in BA. Yes we know Vulkan makes codex marines more competitive worthy. The OP has made it pretty darn clear he wants to talk about smurfs- just smurfs. And not how big a smurfs wang is compared to whatever chapter.

YES, I understand that. My only problem is that, although there are more Ultramarine characters than others in the codex, I just find them rather awkward. Seriously, if he wants a good HQ for the Smurfs, he is best off picking a generic character, i.e a Captain, Chaplain or Librarian (If you do get a libby, make sure to try and give him an invul.)

Also, codex SM is just nerfed compared to a specific chapter codex. I hate to tell you this, but a few people would agree. Don't get me wrong, C:SM is good, just it is improved when you get another codex.

If I was interested in getting another codex and quitting the army completely, I would. As noted I was simply trying to see if there was some niche with the Ultramarine HQs specifically that I might have overlooked and it appears that my reasonings for not using most of them are the same presented here. However the constant reminder that the green dude with the spear, yes VULKAN, is better than everything else in the codex or that Blood Angels are the end all be all is definitely not what I was looking for and is 100% information I already knew.

GreatGunz wrote:I always liked Tigerius. Even though he's not much of a fighter, controlling reserves is good, and he's always got the appropriate psychic power. I'm for it.

He is pricey but I do like dropping him in with a squad of Sternguard, that is a lot of fun. I can see his usefulness in a heavy deep strike/reserves type of army but aside from those two instances not so much.

Jstncloud wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

Jihallah wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

Jihallah wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:
What is your opinion on Vindicators? I got a trio built the other day to use with my Codex Marines and aside from their range I like them.

Good, but better in more aggressive marine lists. You can get more mileage in a gunline with preds than vindicators. Then again, In smaller (1000-1500) games I often go 2 typhoons 2 rifleman dreads and a AC/Las pred, so after the obligatory tac marines etc sometimes a pair of vindicators can work well. But generally, pred's do better, mainly because they aren't so worried about immobilized and weapon destroyed results, and don't have to move up to get a shot, exposing their paper thin side armor. The side armor thing, and that the vindi is horrified by 2/3 of the results on the chart makes the predator just that bit better, if lacking an enormous S10 pie plate of death

And most terrifying in BA.

For the umpteenth time- Ultramarines. We are talking about Ultramarines. Yes, we too are on the internet and know that preds/rhinos/razorbacks/vindicators are better in BA. Yes we know Vulkan makes codex marines more competitive worthy. The OP has made it pretty darn clear he wants to talk about smurfs- just smurfs. And not how big a smurfs wang is compared to whatever chapter.

YES, I understand that. My only problem is that, although there are more Ultramarine characters than others in the codex, I just find them rather awkward. Seriously, if he wants a good HQ for the Smurfs, he is best off picking a generic character, i.e a Captain, Chaplain or Librarian (If you do get a libby, make sure to try and give him an invul.)

Also, codex SM is just nerfed compared to a specific chapter codex. I hate to tell you this, but a few people would agree. Don't get me wrong, C:SM is good, just it is improved when you get another codex.

If I was interested in getting another codex and quitting the army completely, I would. As noted I was simply trying to see if there was some niche with the Ultramarine HQs specifically that I might have overlooked and it appears that my reasonings for not using most of them are the same presented here. However the constant reminder that the green dude with the spear, yes VULKAN, is better than everything else in the codex or that Blood Angels are the end all be all is definitely not what I was looking for and is 100% information I already knew.

I understand that. It was just a stupid edgeways comment. Anyway, the simple fact is that you will probably want a generic HQ. You could just get some Ultramarine bits if you want to spruce him up a little bit. Cassius is also a good option, but most other Ultramarines characters are overpriced or downright nerfed.

If you are playing a big game, I'd definitely use Calgar. 4 Attacks base, 5 with his two powerfists, eternal warrior, and making your Leadership into "Pass"

If you need a special character, Sicarius can be good if he's in the right situation. Give your tactical squad with meltas/lascannons tank hunter or infiltrate, while being able to Instant Death things at S6.

Tigerius is just to much points not to have an Invulnerable save. Especially since he is a psyker...

Cassius can be alright as well, but I'd almost feel better using a normal chaplain, who I believe would be cheaper.

Crazyterran wrote:If you are playing a big game, I'd definitely use Calgar. 4 Attacks base, 5 with his two powerfists, eternal warrior, and making your Leadership into "Pass"

If you need a special character, Sicarius can be good if he's in the right situation. Give your tactical squad with meltas/lascannons tank hunter or infiltrate, while being able to Instant Death things at S6.

Tigerius is just to much points not to have an Invulnerable save. Especially since he is a psyker...

Cassius can be alright as well, but I'd almost feel better using a normal chaplain, who I believe would be cheaper.

Full circle now, my biggest issue with Sicarius is that for 200 pts he beefs one squad, for 190 Vulkan does everything (yeah yeah now I am bringing up the green dude lol). His 10LD for the board can be nice, but if you are not using massive amounts of troops it is wasted and finally that Coup de grace (spelling?) is great, if he hits, but it is basically an expensive force weapon with 1 attack. When compared to grey knights with hammer hand and more than 1 instant death attack at str 5 Sicarius really falls short.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

Jihallah wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

Jihallah wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:
What is your opinion on Vindicators? I got a trio built the other day to use with my Codex Marines and aside from their range I like them.

Good, but better in more aggressive marine lists. You can get more mileage in a gunline with preds than vindicators. Then again, In smaller (1000-1500) games I often go 2 typhoons 2 rifleman dreads and a AC/Las pred, so after the obligatory tac marines etc sometimes a pair of vindicators can work well. But generally, pred's do better, mainly because they aren't so worried about immobilized and weapon destroyed results, and don't have to move up to get a shot, exposing their paper thin side armor. The side armor thing, and that the vindi is horrified by 2/3 of the results on the chart makes the predator just that bit better, if lacking an enormous S10 pie plate of death

And most terrifying in BA.

For the umpteenth time- Ultramarines. We are talking about Ultramarines. Yes, we too are on the internet and know that preds/rhinos/razorbacks/vindicators are better in BA. Yes we know Vulkan makes codex marines more competitive worthy. The OP has made it pretty darn clear he wants to talk about smurfs- just smurfs. And not how big a smurfs wang is compared to whatever chapter.

YES, I understand that. My only problem is that, although there are more Ultramarine characters than others in the codex, I just find them rather awkward. Seriously, if he wants a good HQ for the Smurfs, he is best off picking a generic character, i.e a Captain, Chaplain or Librarian (If you do get a libby, make sure to try and give him an invul.)

Also, codex SM is just nerfed compared to a specific chapter codex. I hate to tell you this, but a few people would agree. Don't get me wrong, C:SM is good, just it is improved when you get another codex.

If I was interested in getting another codex and quitting the army completely, I would. As noted I was simply trying to see if there was some niche with the Ultramarine HQs specifically that I might have overlooked and it appears that my reasonings for not using most of them are the same presented here. However the constant reminder that the green dude with the spear, yes VULKAN, is better than everything else in the codex or that Blood Angels are the end all be all is definitely not what I was looking for and is 100% information I already knew.

I understand that. It was just a stupid edgeways comment. Anyway, the simple fact is that you will probably want a generic HQ. You could just get some Ultramarine bits if you want to spruce him up a little bit. Cassius is also a good option, but most other Ultramarines characters are overpriced or downright nerfed.

Was hoping there was some oversight on my part but generic HQs (or a non-Ultra) seems to be the way to go at this point.