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Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

So, the Affordable Care Act is finally before the Supremes. Do you think it's likely to pass, in whole or in part?

I also have a tangential question over an argument that was put forth today.

When Solicitor General Donald Verrilli tries to explain to Justice Scalia that the health care market is unique because “getting health care service … [is] a result of the social norms to which we've obligated ourselves so that people get health care.” Scalia’s response is a curt: “Well, don't obligate yourself to that.”


My interpretation of that answer is that he disagrees that hospitals should have a legal duty to handle patients who show up in emergency rooms and cannot pay. Do you agree with this?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/30 04:27:57


 lord_blackfang wrote:
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Auburn CA

I hope it sicks honestly but I am just the angry angsty youth.

Also the day we start charging people to come into the hospital is the day I leave this country.

 
   
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I've seen it happen a few times where people walk into the county emergency room over a cold. I think his question is that we'll be obligated to treat people that walk into the hospital over minor things.

It's already a law that if you are bleeding, even private hospitals have to treat you. and if you have a cold, wait til Monday and go to the county clinic, that's what it's for.

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Auburn CA

Ah see the way I read that was if you came in with stomach pains and got turned away because you could not pay

 
   
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Imperial Agent Provocateur




Not at all. Understanding justice Scalia's response requires understanding his position generally. Justice Scalia consistently believes in a strict interpretation of the constitution. A natural consequence of this is that he winds up opposing most (but not all) things that expand the reach of the federal government.

Whether one agrees with that or not, he's merely being cosistent with a valid view on the constitution. His response stems from that- he feels that it is not the place of the federal government to extend itself further in to that arena. The curtness of his response is also consistent- if you look up cases in which he writes either the opinion or the dissent (but especially the dissent) you will find he has a particular style (best seen in the dissents). He is a little sharp of tongue, and it is intentional- when asked about it, he says that it is done so that people will actually read the damn things, rather than just glaze over them.

To say that he doesn't want emergency rooms to treat patients is a logical leap. Something on par with "I don't like clocks or chocolate, so I hope Switzerland is destroyed." In fact, it is so out there, that I'm fairly sure the OP is just trolling. But it is 3am, and I am bored.
   
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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

Oops, point of clarification, before we get going (and also for the UK/international readers) - in the United States, hospitals are currently legally obligated to provide emergency services to stabilize you regardless of your ability to pay. If you walk into a emergency room with a gunshot wound and no money, they must patch you up (and also call the police, since they are mandatory reports for gunshot wounds but thats a whole other thing). However, they can and will turn you away if you show up with a cold and no insurance.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
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My only thought as to why there is an Affordable Care Act. is that is other states there aren't count run hospitals and clinics. Where I'm from there is a county hospital and county clinic, they both work off of an income scale system.

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MN (Currently in WY)

I'm honestly surprised the ACA is being challenged in court considering this was the Conservative plan back when Hilarycare was being proposed. In addition, it gives a huge "bailout" to private Health insurance companies.

Now, let's say the ACA is deemed unconstitutional, or at least the mandate protion. Then guess what becomes the next only logical step for advocates of Universal health care? That's right, Single-payer.

The case for it gets much easier to sell. The alternatives become; the status quo that many Americans acknowledge is broken. Or, Single-Payer which provides additional protections and can be structured to avoid the problems of this plan.

Do conservatives really want to abandon the plan they created in the 90's to just have to eventually lose the Healthcare battle over Single payer instead? Seems kind of stupid to me, but I don't understand politics.

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Ouze wrote:..... However, they can and will turn you away if you show up with a cold and no insurance.


My son had a bad flu and this happened to me in Canada(Toronto). Well I had insurance but USA based.

GG


they wanted 500 Canadian to treat him.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/03/28 13:06:25


 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2012/03/obamacare-and-supreme-court

Spoiler:
BARACK OBAMA signed his health reform into law on March 23rd, 2010. Within minutes Florida’s attorney-general had filed suit against the law, along with 12 other states. Since then they have been joined by the National Federation of Independent Business, four private individuals and 13 additional states. Starting today the Supreme Court will hear their case. A decision is expected by the end of June.

Most political brawls are drummed-up follies, but the fight over health-care reform is legitimately historic. The law is the biggest achievement of Barack Obama’s presidency. If it survives, Democrats say, it will expand and transform American health care. Republicans, though, see it as a government intrusion into private affairs. If the law is upheld, they say, no area of American life will be safe.

America’s highest court usually devotes one hour to arguments. For this case it will devote six hours, spread over three days. The Economist has a seat for the proceedings; we'll be posting our thoughts on Wednesday, and a detailed story will appear in next week’s issue. In the meantime, here is a guide to the arguments.

Reams have been written about the case. This guide attempts to provide a simplified summary. Readers hungry for additional information should visit the American Bar Association, the SCOTUS blog and the ACA Litigation blog, which are stocked with briefs and other resources. C-SPAN has a video of a great debate between Paul Clement (the lawyer for the states), Mike Carvin (the lawyer for the National Federation of Independent Business), Neal Katyal (a former Solicitor General) and Akhil Amar (a constitutional law professor at Yale).

QUESTIONS BEFORE THE COURT

There are four issues before the Supreme Court. Attention has centred on the constitutionality of the “individual mandate”, which requires most Americans to buy health insurance or pay a penalty. However there are three other questions before the court, two that are procedural and one that is substantive: whether the case must wait until 2015, after the mandate takes effect; whether the rest of the law must fall if the individual mandate is struck down; and whether the law coerces states to expand Medicaid, the health programme for the poor.

MONDAY: DECIDE NOW OR LATER?

Question: Does the Anti-Injunction Act prevent the court from deciding this case until 2015? The court has granted 90 minutes for arguments on this topic.

Background: The Anti-Injunction Act of 1867 bars court challenges to taxes before those taxes have been levied. The individual mandate will go into effect in 2014. Those who fail to buy insurance will pay their first penalty in 2015.

Mr Obama’s argument: This is the rare instance in which Mr Obama and the states agree, albeit for different reasons. Mr Obama’s lawyers want the court to decide the case now, arguing that Congress did not intend the law’s “penalty” to be treated as a tax under the Anti-Injunction Act.

Challengers’ argument: The case should be decided now. The health law assesses a “penalty”, not a tax. Furthermore, the suit challenges the mandate itself, not the penalty. The Anti-Injunction Act bars a person from suing, but it does not bar a state from doing so.

Court-appointed lawyer’s argument: Because neither the challengers nor Mr Obama want a decision to be delayed, the court appointed a lawyer to argue that the case should wait until 2015. Robert Long, of Covington and Burling, contends that the court should not rule on a constitutional matter until it is compelled to do so, that is, after the tax has been levied.

Analysis: The government’s argument here is among its most confusing. Mr Obama’s lawyers argue that the penalty falls within Congress’s power to tax, but the penalty should not be treated as a tax under the Anti-Injunction Act. Nevertheless, only one appellate court, in Virginia, ruled that the suit must wait until 2015.


TUESDAY: THE INDIVIDUAL MANDATE

Question: May Congress mandate the purchase of health insurance and penalise those who fail to obey? The court will spend two hours hearing arguments on this topic.

Background: America’s health-care market has clear failings. In 2009 50m people without insurance bought health care they could not pay for. This shifted costs to those with insurance, in the form of higher fees. Meanwhile insurers may raise rates or deny coverage to the sick. The Democrats’ health law attempts to remedy these problems, among others. The poor receive subsidised insurance. Those who can afford insurance are required to buy it. Those who disobey are assessed a small penalty. According to Democrats, requiring insurance for the healthy will balance the cost of insuring the sick. Those who buy insurance will no longer subsidise those who do not.

Mr Obama’s argument: The constitution’s commerce clause authorises Congress to regulate health care, an industry that accounts for nearly 18% of America’s GDP. The health law seeks to expand insurance coverage and lower the cost of care. The individual mandate is a necessary, proper way to meet the law’s goals. The law does not regulate inactivity, as the states contend. Not buying insurance is an economic decision to pay for your own health care. Given that millions of Americans buy more health care than they can pay for, the decision to self-insure has a substantive effect on interstate commerce. Furthermore, the mandate’s penalty falls within Congress’s power to tax.

Challengers’ argument: The mandate is an unprecedented expansion of Congress’s power, “a revolution in the relationship between the central government and the governed.” The commerce clause authorises Congress to regulate economic activity. It does not authorise Congress to regulate economic inactivity. Allow this mandate and Congress may require Americans to eat broccoli or buy cars to support Detroit’s carmakers. The government’s insistence that the penalty is a tax is undermined by Democrats’ constant assertion, in 2009, that the penalty is nothing of the kind. Furthermore, the states are challenging the mandate, not the penalty.

Analysis: Two federal courts of appeals, in Ohio and Washington, DC, upheld the mandate. One federal court of appeals, the Eleventh Circuit, overturned it. The Supreme Court agreed to hear the appeal from the Eleventh Circuit. Working in Mr Obama’s favour is a recent case, Gonzalez v Raich, in which the Supreme Court ruled that Congress could criminalise an individual’s growth of medical marijuana for personal use. Antonin Scalia, a conservative justice, wrote: “Congress may regulate even noneconomic local activity if that regulation is a necessary part of a more general regulation of interstate commerce.”


WEDNESDAY: "SEVERABILITY"

Question: If the individual mandate falls, must the rest of the law fall too? The court will devote 90 minutes to this argument.

Background: The mandate is the most prominent piece of Mr Obama’s health reform. However the law is gargantuan. Its 2,700 pages cover everything from calorie counts on menus to drug rebates for the elderly.

Mr Obama’s argument: Should the mandate be overturned, only two other provisions should fall with it. The reform requires insurers to cover those with pre-existing conditions and bars them from hiking fees for the ill. Mr Obama’s lawyers concede that the mandate is necessary for these requirements to work—without the mandate, individuals would simply wait until they got sick to buy insurance. This would prove disastrous for insurers. However the rest of the law should stand. The states may not fight provisions of the health law that do not apply to them.

Challengers’ argument: Health reform sought to achieve near universal health coverage without increasing the deficit. The mandate was the main way to do this, but the entire law served this goal. If the mandate falls, the entire law should fall, too.

Court-appointed lawyer’s argument: The Supreme Court appointed an impartial lawyer, Bartow Farr, to argue that the rest of the law should remain if the mandate falls. Mr Farr contends that the provisions outside of the mandate are “perfectly lawful”. Congress would rather have the law without the mandate than no health law at all.

Analysis: The insurance industry supported the law because of the mandate. The requirement that individuals buy insurance balanced the myriad, onerous rules on insurers. The Eleventh Circuit’s ruling was insurers’ worst nightmare. The appellate court struck down the mandate but upheld every other part of the law.


WEDNESDAY: MEDICAID

Question: Is Congress’s expansion of Medicaid unduly coercive to the states? The court will hear one hour of arguments on this topic.

Background: Medicaid provides health care to the poor. It is paid for by both the federal government and the states. However Washington foots most of the bill, providing 50% to 83% of funding for each state’s Medicaid programme. Beginning in 2014, the health law will expand Medicaid to childless adults with incomes of up to 138% of the federal poverty line.

Mr Obama’s argument: This is not the first time that the federal government has expanded eligibility for Medicaid. The government may attach requirements to the aid that it provides. Strike down this expansion as coercive and other federal requirements would be similarly vulnerable. Besides, the federal government will pay for most of the expansion—100% in 2014, tapering to 90% by 2020.

Challengers’ argument: The law’s expansion of Medicaid is unduly coercive. Technically, states could refuse the government’s new terms for Medicaid. But the federal government’s support for Medicaid is so large that refusing Washington’s help is impractical. States have no choice but to acquiesce to the government’s terms, even though they are strapped for cash.

Analysis: No lower court sided with the states, making this challenge the least likely to succeed. However the Supreme Court surprised observers by agreeing to hear this issue in the first place, so another surprise may come in June.


An excellent summary of the case.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

As someone who would prefer single payer and am generally in favor of healthcare reform, I must say that the argument "It does not authorise Congress to regulate economic inactivity. " is quite compelling. It doesn't seem to me that Congress can compel participation in a market so that they may then regulate it. The slippery slope stuff, I dunno, but I can't see how the mandate is possible under the grounds they are arguing for - it's a pretty big reach.

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USA

The problem is that it's more complicated than that, Ouze, and certainly not the only way to interpret it:

To quote what I just posted:

Mr Obama’s argument: The constitution’s commerce clause authorises Congress to regulate health care, an industry that accounts for nearly 18% of America’s GDP. The health law seeks to expand insurance coverage and lower the cost of care. The individual mandate is a necessary, proper way to meet the law’s goals. The law does not regulate inactivity, as the states contend. Not buying insurance is an economic decision to pay for your own health care. Given that millions of Americans buy more health care than they can pay for, the decision to self-insure has a substantive effect on interstate commerce. Furthermore, the mandate’s penalty falls within Congress’s power to tax.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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Chicago

I think 3 of the 4 issues are really clear.

On Monday (the day SCOTUS was to hear the timeliness argument), the Justices were already diving into the other issues. So, clearly they are going to rule that it's timely.
PaPACA itself won't be ruled unconstitutional as a whole. The government clearly has the ability to regulate health care, and most of this law is clearly constitutional.
The Medicaid argument is also ridiculous. There's no way it's outside federal power to change the rules for Medicaid, unless all of Medicaid is going to be ruled unconstitutional (which won't happen).


So, the only real issue is the individual mandate. I think it's constitutionality is somewhat questionable. I think Obama's argument (inactivity is still participating in health care by paying for things out of pocket) is weak. We'll have to see how this plays out, and it will be decided by people with a much better understanding of the issues than any of us.

My personal stance: People should be allowed to opt out. But, once you opt out, you can never, ever get insurance. And, hospitals won't be obligated to treat you unless you can pay, up front, for any procedures.

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USA

PaPACA itself won't be ruled unconstitutional as a whole. The government clearly has the ability to regulate health care, and most of this law is clearly constitutional.


If the mandate to buy insurance is overturned but PaPACA is not as a whole then the system will collapse into a huge under financed quagmire that will suck in more money than can go into it. It would be that way anyway, but it'll be worse.

The law as a whole needs to pass or struck down in its entirety.

My personal stance: People should be allowed to opt out. But, once you opt out, you can never, ever get insurance. And, hospitals won't be obligated to treat you unless you can pay, up front, for any procedures.


That's a little extreme. What do we do? Tell the dying guy "Sorry you opted out of the opportunity that allows us to save you"?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/28 16:55:00


   
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Chicago

LordofHats wrote:
My personal stance: People should be allowed to opt out. But, once you opt out, you can never, ever get insurance. And, hospitals won't be obligated to treat you unless you can pay, up front, for any procedures.


That's a little extreme. What do we do? Tell the dying guy "Sorry you opted out of the opportunity that allows us to save you"?

Yes. If someone chooses not to get health insurance when easily affordable options are out there, they are saying "I will pay for anything I need myself". As such, they should have to pay for anything they need. If they can't, then they aren't treated. (And, I'd consider it a form of suicide, so life insurance policies don't pay out.)

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Bristol

Grakmar wrote:
LordofHats wrote:
My personal stance: People should be allowed to opt out. But, once you opt out, you can never, ever get insurance. And, hospitals won't be obligated to treat you unless you can pay, up front, for any procedures.


That's a little extreme. What do we do? Tell the dying guy "Sorry you opted out of the opportunity that allows us to save you"?

Yes. If someone chooses not to get health insurance when easily affordable options are out there, they are saying "I will pay for anything I need myself". As such, they should have to pay for anything they need. If they can't, then they aren't treated. (And, I'd consider it a form of suicide, so life insurance policies don't pay out.)


Problem with that is to refuse treatment to that person would put a doctor in the position of breaking their Hippocratic Oath. Don't know whether they still take that seriously but I wouldn't think of denying a person medical treatment if they really needed it if I were a doctor.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
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MN (Currently in WY)

Yeah, if the mandate goes; the whole point of the exercise is kind of over.

Then, we cna fianlly start arguing about Medicare for All as the next step.

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The Great State of Texas

Sweet Baby Jebus you don't want to be on Medicare. If thats your idea odf a good system you're %*^%*ed in the head.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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USA

Indeed.

Basically, the only solution is either something like this, or like a single payer system.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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The Great State of Texas

Medicare is a single payer system.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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Bristol

Frazzled wrote:Sweet Baby Jebus you don't want to be on Medicare. If thats your idea odf a good system you're %*^%*ed in the head.


What's so bad about Medicare?

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

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USA

It costs a crap ton of money and has poor service (and I'd propose a lot of administrative stupidity) but arguably it suffers from being a single payer system jerryrigged into the larger US medical industry.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/28 17:28:26


   
Made in us
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generalgrog wrote:My son had a bad flu and this happened to me in Canada(Toronto). Well I had insurance but USA based.

GG


they wanted 500 Canadian to treat him.


Out of curiosity, were you a Canadian citizen at the time?
   
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The Great State of Texas

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Sweet Baby Jebus you don't want to be on Medicare. If thats your idea odf a good system you're %*^%*ed in the head.


What's so bad about Medicare?

It used to be better but sucks now.

-It pays below market for doctors and treatments. As a result there are shortages of doctors willing to take medicare patients.
-There are several loopholes of coverage in it. Those loopholes were filled by 3rd party providers at minimal cost. Funds for those providers have been reduced substantially under the current adminstration.
-Fees have been rising steadily in the last 5 years.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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U.S.A.

Johnny-Crass wrote:I hope it sicks honestly but I am just the angry angsty youth.

Also the day we start charging people to come into the hospital is the day I leave this country.


Try these out:

The day we start charging people that come into McDonald's is the day I leave this country.
The day we start charging people that come into a car dealership is the day I leave this country.
The day we start charging people that come into the airport ...
The day we start charging people that come into <insert business or industry here>...

Doesn't really sound right, does it?

Obamacare should be struck down completely (though I believe they are only considering the mandate att). I'm certain that even people that only won popularity contests (politicians) can understand that this is unconstitutional. It's simply a powergrab.

"I'm leaving the country" is a response to the government taking over every aspect of our lives.

Regards,

"Stop worrying about it and just get naked." - Mrs. Phanatik

"To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." -Alfred, Lord Tennyson

Frazzled - "When the Great Wienie comes, you will have a favored place among his Chosen. "

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Bristol

Frazzled wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Sweet Baby Jebus you don't want to be on Medicare. If thats your idea odf a good system you're %*^%*ed in the head.


What's so bad about Medicare?

It used to be better but sucks now.

-It pays below market for doctors and treatments. As a result there are shortages of doctors willing to take medicare patients.
-There are several loopholes of coverage in it. Those loopholes were filled by 3rd party providers at minimal cost. Funds for those providers have been reduced substantially under the current adminstration.
-Fees have been rising steadily in the last 5 years.


So it wasn't very well thought out in regards to its coverage.

Paying doctors below market rate is very odd. I'm guessing it can't get enough funding to be able to pay market rate? Probably does bleed a lot of money in the form of admin and bureaucracy which doesn't help. Probably also explains the rise in fees. Why don't you try asking Cuba for some doctors? They have plenty to spare

I think the main problem is trying to attach a universal healthcare system to what is already there whilst trying to keep all the insurance companies happy. I've never really understood how people can oppose giving healthcare to those who can't afford it but that's most likely because I was raised here in England so I always thought of healthcare as a basic human right or whatever you want to call it.


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Sweet Baby Jebus you don't want to be on Medicare. If thats your idea odf a good system you're %*^%*ed in the head.


What's so bad about Medicare?

It used to be better but sucks now.

-It pays below market for doctors and treatments. As a result there are shortages of doctors willing to take medicare patients.
-There are several loopholes of coverage in it. Those loopholes were filled by 3rd party providers at minimal cost. Funds for those providers have been reduced substantially under the current adminstration.
-Fees have been rising steadily in the last 5 years.


So it wasn't very well thought out in regards to its coverage.

Paying doctors below market rate is very odd. I'm guessing it can't get enough funding to be able to pay market rate? Probably does bleed a lot of money in the form of admin and bureaucracy which doesn't help. Probably also explains the rise in fees. Why don't you try asking Cuba for some doctors? They have plenty to spare

I think the main problem is trying to attach a universal healthcare system to what is already there whilst trying to keep all the insurance companies happy. I've never really understood how people can oppose giving healthcare to those who can't afford it but that's most likely because I was raised here in England so I always thought of healthcare as a basic human right or whatever you want to call it.



Well you have to understand. The US government is not especially good at...well anything. Private anything in comparison may still suck, but its world's better. Take the actual law. Its thousands of pages of stuff that no one actually looked at, a byzantine monster of bureaucracies, specifal benies and forvoritsm to favored entities and states. It screams bad.

Maybe if we had the Swiss government. WOuld they mind if we stole their bureaucrats? They could have New Mexico if they wanted.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior





WA state USA

Phanatik wrote:
Johnny-Crass wrote:I hope it sicks honestly but I am just the angry angsty youth.

Also the day we start charging people to come into the hospital is the day I leave this country.


Try these out:

The day we start charging people that come into McDonald's is the day I leave this country.
Mcdonalds is not a need, there are other options if you are hungry like make your own food.
The day we start charging people that come into a car dealership is the day I leave this country.
You can walk, buy a bike, or take a bus. It is not likely to die from not having a car now is it?
The day we start charging people that come into the airport ...
You do not need to travel to live. You can also drive, take a ship or train.
The day we start charging people that come into <insert business or industry here>...

Doesn't really sound right, does it?

Obamacare should be struck down completely (though I believe they are only considering the mandate att). I'm certain that even people that only won popularity contests (politicians) can understand that this is unconstitutional. It's simply a powergrab.

"I'm leaving the country" is a response to the government taking over every aspect of our lives.

Regards,


Obviously red is mine in the above. None of the comparisons you drew are decent there. Lets say I have pulmonary embolism, my choices are healthcare through a hospital followed by medication or likely death (possible in the hospital as well, just lesser chance with proper medications). Hospitals provide a different kind off service than Mcdonalds or the other options you posted, and to say they are comparable is a stretch. They make money and that is where it ends. You are comparing a luxury (haha mcdonalds a luxury) with a possible life saving need. To be clear I am not saying we should not pay for these services, just that your comparison is poor.


Ikasarete Iru

Graffiti from Pompeii: VIII.2 (in the basilica); 1882: The one who buggers a fire burns his penis

Xenophanes: "If horses had Gods, they would look like horses!"

 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

McDonalds...hospital and pending death...is there a relationship?

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Revving Ravenwing Biker





Springfield, Oregon

Ouze wrote:So, the Affordable Care Act is finally before the Supremes. Do you think it's likely to pass, in whole or in part?

I also have a tangential question over an argument that was put forth today.

When Solicitor General Donald Verrilli tries to explain to Justice Scalia that the health care market is unique because “getting health care service … [is] a result of the social norms to which we've obligated ourselves so that people get health care.” Scalia’s response is a curt: “Well, don't obligate yourself to that.”


My interpretation of that answer is that he disagrees that hospitals should have a legal duty to handle patients who show up in emergency rooms and cannot pay. Do you agree with this?


What it sounds like to me, is that he was referring to the system of "insurance" itsself as health care coverage, and to not obligate yourself to it.

The social norm currently is to have health insurance of some sort, or you feel like you have no health care. This is how the system is set up, and is broken. One of the things being said here, is what a lot of people fail to recognize, you can visit a regular doctor whenever you want, and get glasses, and get glasses and prescriptions, etc, anytime you want it, you could just pay for it.



Now on to the Supreme Court Verbal arguements being held. I have heard them bring up matters of interstate commerse, but I heard no rebuttal to that. My first thought when "interstate commerse" was brought up was invalid arguement, because you can not purchase insurance over state lines. If you lived in Ohio, and had insurance you really liked, but had to move to Washington, and wanted to keep your insurance coverage, you could not. You would have to drop your insurance, and then get a new plan in Washington. So interstate commerse is a losing arguement, and maybe it was too obvious to all the smart people in the room that they didn't bother responding to it.

 
   
 
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