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Hey all, I recently 'won' an adepticon prep tourney at my flgs, and several days later I found out from one of my opponents that my list was 35 points over. I forgot to add in the solar pulses' costs to my royal courts, and when I recalculated my list, I found I had room for another wraith because of those 40 points. Thus, I ended up with an extra 35. I added it up 3 times before the event, because I had suddenly gained an extra 40 points, but each time I didn't include the solar pulses. At the event, the TO OK'd it, so I figured it was just a calculation error I had made earlier. I went on to play some excellent games, albeit with said extra points. Now at least one of the people I played against is rather upset, and though I have offered my apologies for the incident, I was wondering what others thought I could/should do in this situation (other than quadruple-check and use excel next time).

I'd offer my apologies and speak to the TO to see if they want to organise a complimentary rematch. It's his fault as much as yours and not doing so will hurt their reputation.

So yeah, apologise publicly and see if the TO will organise a rematch, if not then offer friendly rematch? £5 in, winner takes all, though you cannot win it.

2 free solar pulses is a pretty big deal. You should split or give the prize to the guy you beat in the finals. No rematch BS! It's better to be the bigger man.

Forfeit any monetary prizes you gained by winning. Give them back to the TO. The TO can either give them to second place or keep the prizes for the next tourney.

While TOs should check lists, it is not often reasonable or possible, and "the TO should have checked it" is a cop-out as in the end you made the mistake. Even if the TO made the mistake, you gained an unfair advantage for it.

People seem to get pissy about prize support. Personally I wouldn't care about it if I had lost, but I understand why some people get mad.

Accidents happen, apologize and if that isn't enough to satisfy one player but everyone else has accepted it and moved on, don't worry about it.

People getting all bent out of shape over a mistake aren't going to change the fact that a mistake happened.

First of all, get army builder.

Secondly, admitting your mistake and apologizing is the right thing to do, and you've already done it. Just don't let it happen again and you shouldn't have any more problems.

I agree with the 2 above posters. Imo, it's too late to go back and give back prizes / etc. It' s a good reason for more tournaments to require army builder printouts (although these can be intentionally tweaked to be off- but in that case, it's outright cheating, not a mistake) or have a better way to check lists.

Of course, it's possible you'd just forget to click the option in army builder, too, but play as if you had the wargear. No way to get around that.

RiTides wrote:Of course, it's possible you'd just forget to click the option in army builder, too, but play as if you had the wargear. No way to get around that.

True, but it eliminates the mathematical errors which are often the bane of the pen and paper list.

If it was me I think it would be cool to bring it at the next tournament so that there is a 2x prize, that way it keeps people happy and you still get a chance to win it back

Forfeit winnings is most honorable way. A writtten letter of apology to each opponent with explanation and that you are forfeiting.
IMHO.
DrG

Good question. Nice to see that even if you are a WAAC player that you arent a cheater. I'd enjoy playing you.

Kitzz wrote:Hey all, I recently 'won' an adepticon prep tourney at my flgs, and several days later I found out from one of my opponents that my list was 35 points over. I forgot to add in the solar pulses' costs to my royal courts, and when I recalculated my list, I found I had room for another wraith because of those 40 points. Thus, I ended up with an extra 35. I added it up 3 times before the event, because I had suddenly gained an extra 40 points, but each time I didn't include the solar pulses. At the event, the TO OK'd it, so I figured it was just a calculation error I had made earlier. I went on to play some excellent games, albeit with said extra points. Now at least one of the people I played against is rather upset, and though I have offered my apologies for the incident, I was wondering what others thought I could/should do in this situation (other than quadruple-check and use excel next time).

35 points...really? I can see where they might complain but I highly doubt that the 35 points really ensured the victory. Sure it is an upgrade, or two space marines, or something like that, but unless it came down the that 35 points costing them the game I wouldn't feel bad. If they refused the rematch, what can you do? If it was a close game and that 35 points 'could' have tipped the scales that would be a different story, but if it was clear cut regardless I hardly think it is worth getting upset over.

I for example have done the opposite, built an army, played the game, then realized I forgot to get out 500pts of my stuff. Sounds crazy but I use Valkyries, not tanks, so by the end of the game I realized I had left my Leman Russes in the foam transport. What can ya do?

Really no excuse for not tallying up your points properly but what can you do? Just apologize and don't make the same mistake again.

Make sure to write everything out with all upgrades and write points down right beside/above/below/to the side, wherever. Ofcourse, double check everything. Don't do the tallys one after the other as your liable to make the same mistake. And do it slowly.

There's really no need to waste time and money on army builder. The output tables look terrible anyway.

I like the ideas of handing off the prizes to the guy who got second place, or bringing them back to the store to double the prize pool at the next event.

I chalk this up to the same as accidentally adding up a battle result wrong. This has happened to me before and when I brought it up as it knocked a player form the running they stated it was after the fact and to not worry about it. So if they missed it and it was accidental it happened. Apologize for it and drive on.

I had a situation where I messed up my nids list but I caught in the third round and withdrew from the tournament on that occasion. So if you catch yourself mid tournament that is a good course of action that I took.

Someone above mentioned 35pts. One of are local players one ard boyz pre-lims but he thought he had 5 extra points so he added a melta bomb to his army. One he never even used during the entire tournament. They forfeited him from the tournament and he didnt make it to the next round. Its kind of a running joke for each tournament in are gaming group to mention mind your melta bombs.

Apologize and forfeit the prize support, either to the 2nd place, or back to whoever ran the tournament to give out as additional during the next event. It's good to own up to your mistakes, so kudos for that.

When did he find out that you were over points? If it was during match, it's his fault for not bringing it up then. Apologize to him and move on with your life.

I would offer to swap prizes with the second place finisher, and then swap that prize with third if his only loss was to you.

Based on the premis that I would rather not win than win in an unfair contest.

It wasn't intentional, and it wasn't caught, so really no one else can enforce a punishment on you, but it seems that you believe a little karmic justice should be doled out... And this is basically forfieting the games that were directly effected.

Good Karma / Respect of your Peers is worth way more than a measly prize.

Jstncloud wrote:
35 points...really? I can see where they might complain but I highly doubt that the 35 points really ensured the victory.

Yes really. It was a tourney with a set point limit. Would you have an issue against playing this person in a tourney over that amount in points? What if he was 36? 37? 50? 100? For my Orks 35 points would be a huge deal. A KFF is 20 points and could give 6 kans and a Deffdread a 4+ cover save when properly placed.

Granted this happened after the fact but isn't the worste I've seen. Had an IG player bring 2 lists and thought he would've sneaky and use whichever one was best suited to his opponent.

YOU just told everyone on dakka thats good enuff man. The TO is at fault just as much as you. keep the prizes. you could refund tourny money to that person that is upset with you if you really wanted but you didnt cheat it was a mistake i just did the same thing but i shortend my list by 45 points in a friendly game. not as bad but still.

@Folks thinking '35 points isn't that much, what could it buy??'

-Changing the amount of points you can bring can change entire army builds, as you're able to squeeze in different unit loadouts you wouldn't normally, but at the end of the day, it's a moot point.

You came to a tournament, the tournament required a list of XXX points or less (let's say 2000).

Your list contained 2035.

Your list is illegal, you are disqualified, you forfeit all prizes and titles.

It's similar to sports, look at football, if your toe is over the line of scrimmage, it's a penalty. Did that extra 1/4 inch affect anything really? No. But it's still illegal, and the rules are there for a reason.

Mannahnin wrote:I like the ideas of handing off the prizes to the guy who got second place, or bringing them back to the store to double the prize pool at the next event.

This.

Keeping the prizes is bad karma.

And 'it aint cheating, it is a mistake?' Maybe as long as I unknowingly keep sloppy rosters then I can't be held accountable for my list being wrong? This is the thing where people build lists with 3 heavy weapons when everyone plays them with 4 so it is not 'odd' and most people miss it, and if you get caught you remove a model. Or you purposefully always build over and drop whatever piece of gear is least useful for the army at hand... It opens up events into all sorts of shenanigans and ways of cheating under the disguise of 'it was a mistake.

Sorry, over is over. Forfeit is Forfeit. Returning prize support is returning prise support. The alternative of apologizing with nice cheap words and keeping the spoils doesn't work.

Own up to it and return the prizes. You can always buy more stuff, but you cannot buy integrity back. Part of this is the organizers fault for not list checking, but the onus is forever on the players to make certain that they are giving their opponents a fair game.

As a TO, when I have caught an error like this, I usually come over and remove something from the table and ask the person to adjust their list with me between rounds. In this manner, you are solving the imbalance without making the person feel like you are accusing them of cheating. If its really blatant (ie dude wins a game because of stormshields on something he never paid for) then I reverse prior games. This requires the TO to check all lists for errors, of course, which I am pretty dilligent about.

I think its good you manned up on dakka, where there are a lot of users who probably attend some of the events you goto. I think that's the right thing to do. A lot of people would just shrug it and not bother doing that.

Regardless, I agree with folks here. Your are over 35 points, your list in illegal. A tournment has a cap for a reason. Figure this, you played 3 games or 5 games? Every one of your games was invalid unfortunately. You should call up the TO and return all prize support.

Re - playing your last game is a nice gestures, however, it still the invalidates those previous games you won. Solar pulses can completely shut down some armies, so that's even bigger. Anytime I goto a major event, I double check my list, and send it to a friend as well. This is a valuable lesson to learn.

Next tourney run a list that's 350 points down and explain that you're owning up to your mistakes ten fold! That's basically forfeiting the next tournament and donating the entry fee, but not excluding yourself.

On the flip side, you could win and then claim that your 35 point mistake didn't really matter.

Returning the prize support is not always applicable. If he is like me, he would be returning an opened box, partly assembled and painted models. Who wants that as prize support for the next event?

I look at t this way. Did you attempt to Cheat? Did the TO fail to do his job? Did you admit the mistake once it was brought to your attention?

What needs to happen is the TO needs to learn from this, and check all list before the tournament starts, or at least while the tournament is happening and disqualify as needed. Once it is finished and prizes given out, there is no going back.

This might come across as Pro-Cheating, but it's not. It's more of a what are you going to do?

Thanks, everyone, for your input. I learned several days after the event from one of the guys who played me. I had already claimed my prize support, in the form of a drop pod, and had opened it and partially assembled it.

I offered to buy each of my opponents of the day dinner and/or a drink (we all are regulars at these events), and most of them accepted.

As for my mistake, I have vowed to from now on always use excel or a similar program when composing my lists. It doesn't completely eliminate human error, but it helps.

Thanks to everyone for their recommendations.

Kitzz wrote:Thanks, everyone, for your input. I learned several days after the event from one of the guys who played me. I had already claimed my prize support, in the form of a drop pod, and had opened it and partially assembled it.

I offered to buy each of my opponents of the day dinner and/or a drink (we all are regulars at these events), and most of them accepted.

As for my mistake, I have vowed to from now on always use excel or a similar program when composing my lists. It doesn't completely eliminate human error, but it helps.

Thanks to everyone for their recommendations.

Sounds like you took the high road and it all worked out, nice going.

Kitzz wrote:Thanks, everyone, for your input. I learned several days after the event from one of the guys who played me. I had already claimed my prize support, in the form of a drop pod, and had opened it and partially assembled it.

I offered to buy each of my opponents of the day dinner and/or a drink (we all are regulars at these events), and most of them accepted.

As for my mistake, I have vowed to from now on always use excel or a similar program when composing my lists. It doesn't completely eliminate human error, but it helps.

Thanks to everyone for their recommendations.

Well played and good choices. Frankly the cost of the dinner and the drink will come pretty close to a drop pod. However, down the line by GW prices it might not For the guy that you beat in the last round, you could also pick him up a blister and say my bad with a handshake. Honestly, over dinner and drinks, they will probably see you really just made a good like we all do.

You said most accepted, was one bitter, or was he just not bothered?

Jstncloud wrote:

Kitzz wrote:Hey all, I recently 'won' an adepticon prep tourney at my flgs, and several days later I found out from one of my opponents that my list was 35 points over. I forgot to add in the solar pulses' costs to my royal courts, and when I recalculated my list, I found I had room for another wraith because of those 40 points. Thus, I ended up with an extra 35. I added it up 3 times before the event, because I had suddenly gained an extra 40 points, but each time I didn't include the solar pulses. At the event, the TO OK'd it, so I figured it was just a calculation error I had made earlier. I went on to play some excellent games, albeit with said extra points. Now at least one of the people I played against is rather upset, and though I have offered my apologies for the incident, I was wondering what others thought I could/should do in this situation (other than quadruple-check and use excel next time).

35 points...really? I can see where they might complain but I highly doubt that the 35 points really ensured the victory. Sure it is an upgrade, or two space marines, or something like that, but unless it came down the that 35 points costing them the game I wouldn't feel bad. If they refused the rematch, what can you do? If it was a close game and that 35 points 'could' have tipped the scales that would be a different story, but if it was clear cut regardless I hardly think it is worth getting upset over.

I for example have done the opposite, built an army, played the game, then realized I forgot to get out 500pts of my stuff. Sounds crazy but I use Valkyries, not tanks, so by the end of the game I realized I had left my Leman Russes in the foam transport. What can ya do?

It can make a differance. I had an opponent in a Ard Boyz tourney go over about that many with plasma pistols, he hand wrote his list as well. When playing against Marines those pistols can make a bit of a differance. I managed to beat him, but he was subsequently DQ'd from the tourney because of that.

I'm sure the OP's mistake was honest. Only thing I can add is offer to return the prize if there was one. You offered apologies, and with that there is nothing more you can do. If most of these people where folks you regularly played against then i'm sure it'll soon by nothing more then a matter to laugh about. If that one guy stays butthurt, well that's his own issue. No sense losing sleep over a punk.