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In the game, power armor has a 2/3 chance of protecting from a normal hit, whether it is a Nob cutting you with his two-handed chainaxe or a gretchin casually stabbing; but what does the fluff say?

For ease of reference, let's ask ourselves: How resilient is power armor to lasgun fire?

Logically, i'd say all but impenetrable. Lasguns utilise laser technology to burn the surface of the target, causing serious wounds. Power armor, on the other hand, is made out of a ceramic, ceramite. It would be like trying to melt your snowball by putting it in the freezer. the soft armor is also thick enough to protect, and while the lasgun can melt it somewhat (causing minor clogging) it is really ineffective.

Against a melee attack, (say a bayonet stab) I do not believe the situation to be very different.

Lasguns are noted as having to hit a weak spot in the armor to be effective, so that would imply the soft armor portions. But they can take down Space Marines with a lucky shot, which is why massed Lagun fire works.

Note: this is based on BL novels and fluff rather than TT rules
Las Weaponry
1) Lasguns - will only penetrate weak points in the armor, like the joints; massed las-fire will tear through power armor significantly; hot-shot rounds will punch through power armor with ease
2) Laspistol - see lasgun
3) Lascannon - will vaporise entire sections of the armor and it's wearer
4) Hellgun - will tear through power armor given time
5) Multilaser - see hellgun, but less time required

Bolt Weaponry
- will usually tear through given time, but if equipped with anti-armor rounds like kraken and vengeance rounds, power armor will most likely become useless

Plasma and Melt Weaponry
- power armor is only partly resistant to plasma fire and useless against melta fire, if you can fire the weapon fast enough. Plasma Cannon and Multi-mela will probably vaporise the armor AND it's user

It all depends on who is writing and the the 'good' guys are. I've read stuff where power armour was cracked open by rock wielding humans, and others where it was impervious to all small arms fire.

I find it helps to couch things in modern terms. Not to get into an argument about how comparable 40k bullets and materials are to modern equivalents, just saying it helps as a thought exercise:

Think of the plates in power armor as equivalent to modern day tank armor (of varying thicknesses). The main sections, like the chest plate, might be as tough as a medium armored fighting vehicle, like the thickest armor on a Bradley AFV. Pieces like the helmet, vambraces (forearm guards), etc, might be about as tough as the armored doors on an up-armored Humvee, or more likely the ceramic plates in a modern bullet-proof vest like the Interceptor vests the US Army wears - good for stopping rifle rounds and shrapnel but nothing bigger. The flexible joints are like the kevlar in the same vest - they'll protect you from some shrapnel, light small arms, and some blade weapons, but even a sharp enough blade with enough force will go through, as will higher energy rifle rounds.

So most parts of a suit of power armor are going to easily stop rifle rounds (equivalent to an autogun/lasgun) and might be chipped or gouged in the process, but would protect the wearer, while the joints/eyepieces are going to be penetrated by nearly everything. The sealed armor will also likely provide pretty good protection against overpressure from nearby explosions.

For larger rounds or more destructive weapons, just think accordingly in modern terms. If a bolter/heavy bolter round is like a 20mm/25mm armor-piercing high explosive round hitting you, the thicker parts of your armor (chest, pauldrons, greaves) will stop it, but will probably be damaged in the process (chipped or even cracked?), especially if you're getting slammed by multiple rounds in the same place. The thinner parts (helmet, vambraces, etc) might be punched clean through. The flexible joints, forget it.

Larger than that, you're getting into actual anti-tank weapons. Something like an autocannon or multilaser round is probably equivalent to a 30mm+ armor piercing anti tank round (like the main gun in a Bradley). These can actually defeat fairly thick modern tank armor, if you're using depleted uranium rounds. We can be generous and say that the chest and pauldrons would protect you from something like that, and your armor will likely be chewed up in the process. You would probably be wounded, but not badly enough to put you completely out of action.

For high energy weapons like plasma and melta, look at shaped-charge warheads. These actually do propel a stream of molten metal or even plasma through their target, and can defeat ridiculous thicknesses of steel. Your power armor isn't going to stop that at all, and will likely vaporize a section of you with it.

Really advanced (and thick) ceramic composite armor, like on an Abrams main battle tank, can stop shaped charge warheads though (and most anti-tank rounds), but I would put that in league with Terminator armor. That 5+ invulnerable save isn't a force field, it's the ridiculous toughness of some sections of armor that give you a chance of stopping even the biggest, baddest weapons in the game.


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One more addition: do remember that even if a weapon is capable of going through most pieces of the armor, there's still a space marine inside. They aren't massive and filled with crazy organs just to win bar fights, they're designed to take bullets. As long as your armor can suitably protect your vital areas, you can lose an arm or an eye or be bleeding from a dozen bullet holes in various parts of your body and keep going. So keep that in mind with my description above - just because I think an autocannon round would go through nearly everywhere on the armor, a lot of those places are going to result in a successful armor "save" because hey, while my guy is pretty fethed-up, he can still hold his bolter and keep advancing.

In the fluff, it all depends on who is shooting who.

If it's the Tanith First-and-Only against Chaos Space Marines, they'll find enough "weak points" in the armor to kill the whole squad.

If it's renegade Guardsmen against the Ultramarines? Lasfire, even from 50 guys, is about as harmful as the falling rain.

When a guardsman fires a "shot" of his lasgun in TT terms he's actually shooting half a dozen or so shots. Considering it takes 18 lasgun shots to kill a SM it's not unreasonable.

Psienesis wrote:In the fluff, it all depends on who is shooting who.

If it's the Tanith First-and-Only against Chaos Space Marines, they'll find enough "weak points" in the armor to kill the whole squad.

If it's renegade Guardsmen against the Ultramarines? Lasfire, even from 50 guys, is about as harmful as the falling rain.

That Tanith fight in the swamp was the closest that series has gotten to making me cringe. Granted, Abnett's Astartes are typically written in a fashion that doesn't march lock-step with many of the other BL authors, but none the less, I couldn't help thinking of McNeill's marines in comparison.

In the fluff, power armour generally does what it needs to do to advance the plot. Sometimes, it is shedding small arms fire like Robo cop. Sometimes, it is taking dramatic, but ultimately inconsequential "battle damage". Sometimes, its mostly helmets inexplicably getting shot off in the name of coolness.

However, the one thing that seems to be constant- power armour is almost useless is "super melee". Super melee being epic hand to hand combat with enemies with magic/teched up melee weapons, or crazy tyranid/demon claws.

DrimGark wrote:

However, the one thing that seems to be constant- power armour is almost useless is "super melee". Super melee being epic hand to hand combat with enemies with magic/teched up melee weapons, or crazy tyranid/demon claws.

Not really surprising, when you consider the melee weapons used by these guys either have razor-sharp adamantium teeth or encased in a matter-disrupting energy field or is channeling psychic might from the user's mind...

Well in books such as Savage Scars. Power Armor Space Marines can take quite a bit of punishment from Tau pulse weapons, but it's not like they were standing out in the open or else they'd get scythed down.
In Last Chancers 2: Kill Team it is much the same story, guardsmen getting whooped by Tau. A single SM comes down and does awesome since there isn't a massed amount of shooting at him.
In Flesh and Iron the Chaos Space Marines are nigh unstoppable when facing Imperial Guard. A single CSM kills dozens upon dozens of men but is finally brought down by massive amounts of hellgun and lasgun/laspistol fire. Later some burly renegade IG completely trash a SOB bodyguard unit with their warhammers. Pretty much these things were pipes with a piston welded to the top. The hammer goes up.... hammer comes down and a Sister's helmeted head is reduced to pulp with ceramite and skull chips going everywhere.
In the Iron Warriors Omnibus CSM PA is subjected to bolter and lasgun fire. The latter was way less effective than the former (duh). In text the Warriors would withstand the las fire and charge into CC to tear apart IG. But then a single SM would open up with his bolter and drop scores of CSM.
Rynn's World was much the same except against the "stubber" solid rounds of Orks.

I come to the conclusion that if SM are fighting normal human las weapons or solid munitions: they pretty much have to stand in one place and wait to die... a long time..... Unless you are a Sister, in which case a husky human with an improvised "fen hammer" will be the bane of your existence.

From the fluff description of the old Codex: Angels of Death ...

The most important element in the construction of a suit of Space Marine power armour is the large ceramite armour plates, which provide the main form of protection against enemy attack. Individual plates of armour can be up to an inch thick, and have a special "honeycomb" design which helps to dissipate energy and localise any damage suffered by the suit. Against most small arms the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st Millenium.

Of course, given that the authors of 40k novels are granted a large amount of artistic license (up to and including the outright contradiction of studio fluff) and since these books are supposedly about "telling good stories" rather than letting their delivery suffer from the limitations of background mechanics, the above is usually waived in favour of either making the protagonist(s) invincible or turn the antagonists into cannonfodder - examples for this phenomenon have already been provided. Like with many tales from contemporary Hollywood action flicks all the way back to ancient Greek legends, iIt all depends on who the hero is.

Body armor of the size and bulk of Power Armor that gives you a 50/50 chance of escaping injury from a small-arm is not worth the ceramite its cast out of. Even the 85% chance isn't really that much better when you consider the kinds of things you're sending SM to fight. You'd be better off with flak or carapace at a fraction of the cost.

This might be a matter of GW writers being gaming enthusiasts rather than ballistics experts.

Psienesis wrote:Body armor of the size and bulk of Power Armor that gives you a 50/50 chance of escaping injury from a small-arm is not worth the ceramite its cast out of. Even the 85% chance isn't really that much better when you consider the kinds of things you're sending SM to fight. You'd be better off with flak or carapace at a fraction of the cost.

Well you've also got to take into account that the armor also boosts their strength and speed, as well as pumping them with adrenaline and other meds when they need it. Just because they're made for war doesn't mean their bodies can do all that on their own, the suit goes a long way to it as well.

Tadashi wrote:

DrimGark wrote:

However, the one thing that seems to be constant- power armour is almost useless is "super melee". Super melee being epic hand to hand combat with enemies with magic/teched up melee weapons, or crazy tyranid/demon claws.

Not really surprising, when you consider the melee weapons used by these guys either have razor-sharp adamantium teeth or encased in a matter-disrupting energy field or is channeling psychic might from the user's mind...

Well what is power armor made of? A ceramic. Take a look at the plate we wear in combat today. Ceramics. Ceramic armor works on the principle of more force, more protection (up to a certain point). It can stop an AK-47 round at point blank range, but it could shatter when someone stabs you with a knife.

This is of course really simplifies it, but it could be a decent explanation to it's apparent "weakeness" to sharp objects with less force being able to penetrate Power Armor.

Psienesis wrote:Body armor of the size and bulk of Power Armor that gives you a 50/50 chance of escaping injury from a small-arm is not worth the ceramite its cast out of. Even the 85% chance isn't really that much better when you consider the kinds of things you're sending SM to fight. You'd be better off with flak or carapace at a fraction of the cost.

Thunderhawks also aren't "that much" better than normal dropships and Rhinos aren't "that much" better than Chimaeras. Doesn't change that they still are, and the best troops get the best equipment. An advantage remains an advantage, and possibly the one that will give the owner an edge. This is no different from real life military, actually.

Also keep in mind that in the 15-50% of cases where injury is not prevented do not always result in an instant fatality. This protection comes on top of a Space Marine's "natural" resilience.
Note further that this also comes with invulnerability towards lesser weapons where flak would "only" provide good protection (such as primitive firearms) and at least some protection where flak does not help at all. This is worth something.
Not to mention the ability for operations in the vacuum of space or in the midst of a toxic wasteland, strength enhancement, integrated sensor suites, automatic first aid drug dispenser, food recycler, ... it's all part of the package.

In my personal opinion, the 50-85% fits nicely to Rogal Dorn comparing 1 Space Marine to 10 normal soldiers. It just becomes weird when you think of depictions like in the Space Marine video game or certain novels containing exaggerated heroism as "accurate".

As others have said, completely variable and prone to vast differences. I would say that generally the armour is figured as being incredibly resilient to small arms fire and with the added benefit of cover it becomes near impossible to actually target them with small arms fire. Its also not just simply kitted out heavy armour but supposedly among the most advanced armour available in the galaxy and certainly in the Imperium. It thus makes no sense for it to be overwhelmed by cheap small arms or even by a well-trained trooper using a charged shot. That just doesn't sit well with me.

As an example of variable toughness. The recent SOB book Hammer and Anvil has regular gauss flayers (str4 ap5) disintegrating power armour with a single shot. TBH I even noticed that during the Horus Heresy that marine armour isn't portrayed as being capable of resisting bolt rounds or marine melee attacks when they clearly would be able to in the rules. This is probably for dramatic effect to create a sense of drama and suspense. You can't really take a threat seriously when whats shooting you is like the rain.


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Psienesis wrote:Body
In my personal opinion, the 50-85% fits nicely to Rogal Dorn comparing 1 Space Marine to 10 normal soldiers. It just becomes weird when you think of depictions like in the Space Marine video game or certain novels containing exaggerated heroism as "accurate".

I personally don't get that. Since a thousand marines have the ability to subdue a whole world with several billion people and at least millions of soldiers it would be hard to think that one to ten makes much sense. Even if you consider better mobility, tactics and the like I don't see how they'd be able to do that without being just plain better than the average mortal. I mean only a few hundred held off behemoth and just a few chapters smashed a Tau fortress world which both outgunned and outnumbered them massively. I'd say in a straight fight 50 to 1 would be a more accurate portrayel. Space Marine is funny since you only win due to your skills as a captain; plenty of enemy units are actually better than you and they do come close to killing you without being in a position to totally over-run you. Really it just shows that you can win a fight against forty orks single handed or kill five chaos marines with a lot of powerful CC equipment. If you play hoard then you realise how many marines probably are killed (ie the Sycthes of the Emperor) through just being shockingly outnumbered and pulled down one by one.

The ability to drop down at any point on the planets surface is a big advantage. Cut off the serpents head if you will.

Space Marines could easily cripple millions of soldiers within a few days with precision strikes to destroy supplies, kill commanders, etc...

Marines drop down in Pods, complete the objective, and are evacuated by Thunderhawk within an hour.

Read the 1993 wargear codex. It shows back when you could reduce armor saves with weaponry rather than a static AP difference.

Uh... fix your quote there, it's all jacked up... cause I didn't say that, hehe.

Now, I do agree that the strength-boosting, enviro-shielding systems of PA makes it a valuable tool but, let's be honest here, if your armor only stops 50%-85% of the attacks coming at you... well, 15% to 50% of your Marines are going to be running out of oxygen after their suits get punctured in the first engagement on the ground. You'd think that you could just make a buncha cheap-arsed space suits for the Guard and drop a quarter-million of them on the ground to pacify whatever it is.

Totalwar1402 wrote:I personally don't get that. Since a thousand marines have the ability to subdue a whole world with several billion people and at least millions of soldiers it would be hard to think that one to ten makes much sense.

But they don't. What they can do is cripple a world's command structure by striking directly at a governor's palace or defense headquarters, blow up generatorium stations or weapons depots etc. Space Marines are not designed to engage in protracted trench warfare or full frontal assaults against prepared army groups. This is stressed again and again throughout the studio material - and this is where the Imperial Guard excels. The latter isn't just necessary because the Marines cannot be everywhere, the Guard is needed because as a body it is actually more powerful.

"Often a conflict will be simply too large, the enemy too powerful, too numerous, or too well entrenched for local forces, ships, or Space Marines to defeat. In such a case mobility counts for very little. In conflicts such as this, the really huge invasions, the wars that spread across whole star systems and decades of warp space, only the grinding steamroller of the Imperial Guard can hope to crush the foe."
- 2E C:IG

So yeah, I'd like to see a thousand Marines to try and attack 10.000 Guardsmen with tanks and artillery and weapon emplacements head-on.

Now, this whole subject is a tricky thing, as "public perception" has continuously been pushed towards perceiving the Astartes as invincible half-gods of war strutting over a battlefield and flipping tanks and whatnot. This is mainly the fault of various licensed products such as bolter porn novels, FFG's RPG line or the Space Marine computer game, but studio material occasionally drifts into this territory as well. The big difference is that individual examples of heroism or "epic wins" (as often referenced throughout Codex material) are contrasted by what is then described to be the norm, and I think the latter is more important than the former. You don't see people running around claiming that SoB can beat Tyranid Hive Tyrants in one-on-one close combat just because one of them managed, yet for Space Marines such examples are apparently considered to be everyday business. In my opinion, this is a flawed perspective borne out of both exaggeration in licensed products as well as the omnipresence of "epic Marine fluff", which in turn is a result out of Marines apparently making up 50% of GW's 40k business. It explains the difference between the "down-to-earth" standard descriptions and those legendary accomplishments by individual heroes or popular Chapters, though.

Unless, however, we consider the possibility of retcons. My personal views are the result of collecting as much fluff about the various armies as possible, and this includes older material such as 2E-4E Codices (which, back then, used to feature actual hard numbers like the protection percentage quoted above and not the vague abstracted trash leaving everything open to interpretation as you get it served nowadays). It's no secret that the Space Marines have consistently been depicted as "moar awsum" from year to year, so perhaps my impression is faulty. I guess it might change depending on what you look at.

Totalwar1402 wrote:Space Marine is funny since you only win due to your skills as a captain; plenty of enemy units are actually better than you and they do come close to killing you without being in a position to totally over-run you. Really it just shows that you can win a fight against forty orks single handed or kill five chaos marines with a lot of powerful CC equipment.

I'd say it just shows that you can win a fight against forty orks because your health magically regenerates when you "execute" them.

Psienesis wrote:Now, I do agree that the strength-boosting, enviro-shielding systems of PA makes it a valuable tool but, let's be honest here, if your armor only stops 50%-85% of the attacks coming at you... well, 15% to 50% of your Marines are going to be running out of oxygen after their suits get punctured in the first engagement on the ground. You'd think that you could just make a buncha cheap-arsed space suits for the Guard and drop a quarter-million of them on the ground to pacify whatever it is.

Well, even discarding a Space Marine's ability to actually survive for prolonged periods under these conditions (wanna guess why the Emperor added this?), how often do the Astartes even fight under them? Would you truly give them lesser armour just because it might not be as good in some engagements? (reminds me of the reasons for why governments issued helmets to their troops in WW1/WW2, actually)
Furthermore, I seem to recall something about every suit of Marine power armour coming with a can of sealant for specifically these cases where the armour is damaged, I just don't remember whether this was some freelance author's invention or if it came up in a studio book.

Also consider this: Why would the Space Marines even bother with whole companies in slow Terminator armour if ordinary PA would already be sufficient for 99% of their foes? Not to mention that even Marines in Terminator armour need to be vulnerable to something.

Well, in the end, the absence of canonicity means that everybody will have to cast his own judgment, anyways. It all comes down to how (in)vulnerable you'd like your Marines and Sisters to be in comparison to everyone else and what makes sense in the impression you got from the setting. Or how powerful/useless you think lasguns are, for that matter.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:For ease of reference, let's ask ourselves: How resilient is power armor to lasgun fire?

In dark heresy, it depends on the quality and type.

Lasguns do 1d10+3 damage, or eight on average. A human's toughness might reduce that by three or four, to ~5 damage average. The lightest power armor has an AP of 7, which reduces that to zero. The lasgun would need to do more than 10 or so damage to harm the wearer of light power armor (which essentially means it needs a critical hit, rolling 10 allows the possibility of additional damage, which can add up quite a bit if one gets lucky).

Lynata wrote:This is mainly the fault of [...] FFG's RPG line

No matter how much you scream otherwise with your persistent and irrational hatred of FFG, this most assuredly is not the case.

In fact, according to FFG's roleplay rules, average human with even a mild level of experience is bound to be MORE skilled than an Astartes. Add that to the fact that humans have access to equipment that can drop all but the hardest Space Marines in one hit, and this is really just non-sense.

Well, even discarding a Space Marine's ability to actually survive for prolonged periods under these conditions (wanna guess why the Emperor added this?), how often do the Astartes even fight under them? Would you truly give them lesser armour just because it might not be as good in some engagements? (reminds me of the reasons for why governments issued helmets to their troops in WW1/WW2, actually)
Furthermore, I seem to recall something about every suit of Marine power armour coming with a can of sealant for specifically these cases where the armour is damaged, I just don't remember whether this was some freelance author's invention or if it came up in a studio book.

Also consider this: Why would the Space Marines even bother with whole companies in slow Terminator armour if ordinary PA would already be sufficient for 99% of their foes? Not to mention that even Marines in Terminator armour need to be vulnerable to something.

Well, in the end, the absence of canonicity means that everybody will have to cast his own judgment, anyways. It all comes down to how (in)vulnerable you'd like your Marines and Sisters to be in comparison to everyone else and what makes sense in the impression you got from the setting. Or how powerful/useless you think lasguns are, for that matter

Actually, I'd go the other way with it. Don't give the SM or the Sisters cheapass power armor, give them something that makes them pretty much (like 99.99%) immune to the concerns of normal mortals in a combat situation (basic frag grenades, deflecting shots, direct hits from the vast majority of man-portable weapons... and I mean standard weapons, not like an MP lascannon, which should be pretty much killy against any humanoid) so that they can get on with the task of taking out the really super-nasty things that are beyond the ability of the IG.

If that takes a blend of current PA and TDA armors, then that's fine.

Lynata wrote:[I So yeah, I'd like to see a thousand Marines to try and attack 10.000 Guardsmen with tanks and artillery and weapon emplacements head-on.

You don't see people running around claiming that SoB can beat Tyranid Hive Tyrants in one-on-one close combat just because one of them managed, yet for Space Marines such examples are apparently considered to be everyday business.

)

Yes, thats only two regiments. Your average guard army should be totting millions of soldiers given the population of the average human world. Not to mention that xenos armies either outnumber (orks, tyranids) even those forces or posses greater mobility/firepower with again the advantage of numbers (Tau, Eldar and Necrons). You're confusing the fact that they don't put a bolt round in everything and avoid wars of attrition where there are better ways of winning with 'they aren't powerful enough to fight battles of attrition'. If they couldn't beat ten thousand guard then they would be a pretty mediocre force. Indeed marines rarely throw their whole chapter into battle, as I said before a few hundred made a huge difference against Behemoth. These aren't a few exaggerated instances, virtually all background from 3rd edition on has made marines out to be more than just a thug in power armour; they really are a class above basic troopers.

There aren't many examples of writing about SoB so we can't make too precise a reading. The problem with SOB is that Black Library writers avoid stressing the advantages of wearing power armour in their novels (ie Horus Heresy). SInce this is the main advantage Soriatus have it means they come across in Faith and Fire/Hammer and Anvil as being pretty unimpressive. That said, it is difficult to balance their portrayel when set against necrons since you have to convey the threat and sense of danger. If they were set against Tau or traitor guard then the difference would be stated. Also, special characters are exceptions to the rule. I mean Sabbat blew up a baneblade and decapitated a daemon prince (which gaunt himself did in a prior novel ) which kinda makes Celestines stats pretty meh by comparison.

Melissia wrote:In fact, according to FFG's roleplay rules, average human with even a mild level of experience is bound to be MORE skilled than an Astartes. Add that to the fact that humans have access to equipment that can drop all but the hardest Space Marines in one hit, and this is really just non-sense.

Too bad that the way FFG's RPGs work, skill has little effect on combat resolution. And according to their Deathwatch book, Space Marines are not just invulnerable to a lasgun or an Eldar rifle but even most types of bolt weapons and have little problem surviving several plasma shots straight to the naked face. Yeah ...
I'm surprised anyone is argueing that FFG is not exaggerating Space Marine badassery with the way their rules work. Magically neutering lascannon shots by dividing their damage across the squad? "Horde" rules allowing four Astartes to mow through entire armies in a matter of minutes? We'll just have to disagree about whether this is or isn't an accurate representation. I'll just say this: FFG's depiction is drastically different from what GW's own roleplaying game, "Inquisitor", tells us, and what I've read in all the Codices.

Also, contrary to popular belief I do not "hate" FFG as a company, I "dislike" their ideas on how to make Space Marines work in an RPG. Or not make them work, depending on your group. In my eyes, it was wasted potential. It could have been so much more if they'd aimed at greater compatibility across the systems. The simple fact that equipment and creatures have different stats across all their books should be enough to illustrate where the problem lies.

But enough of this, none of us is ever going to change their opinion on this subject anyways. It all comes down to what we regard as a better source, and we've made our positions clear in the past.

Psienesis wrote:Actually, I'd go the other way with it. Don't give the SM or the Sisters cheapass power armor, give them something that makes them pretty much (like 99.99%) immune to the concerns of normal mortals in a combat situation (basic frag grenades, deflecting shots, direct hits from the vast majority of man-portable weapons... and I mean standard weapons, not like an MP lascannon, which should be pretty much killy against any humanoid) so that they can get on with the task of taking out the really super-nasty things that are beyond the ability of the IG.
If that takes a blend of current PA and TDA armors, then that's fine.

Do you mean if you were the Imperium, or if you were the writers of the franchise? In case of the former, the above can only be achieved by Terminator armour, which is (a) slow as hell and (b) extremely rare and difficult to procure. When you just want tanks on the field you may as well use real tanks; mobility is too important for Space Marines (or Sisters) to throw away for a bit more protection. From my understanding, the Hammer of the Emperor is the Imperial Guard. Space Marines are the scalpel. I like this distinction, but making the Astartes into the hammer would only result in the Guard being twisted into a "PDF+1" that is supposed to hold the line until the real heroes arrive. I'm sure many fans would like that, but I'm not amongst them.

In case of the latter ... mhm, a matter of personal preferences. In my opinion, even heroes need to have flaws and be vulnerable; if you make them unkillable you'll just reduce the feeling of risk and it'll will just turn into a Hercules-like story where the Marines go around and kick ass, always reaching their goal without the drama created from casualties, despair and shame. There is less and less variety in the outcome. Granted, this is how they are most often portrayed in licensed fiction and it does seem to be popular, so perhaps my tastes are just not compatible with the direction this franchise has taken.

Lynata wrote:[
In case of the latter ... mhm, a matter of personal preferences. In my opinion, even heroes need to have flaws and be vulnerable; if you make them unkillable everything you reduce the risk and it'll will just turn into a Hercules-like story where the Marines go around and kick ass, always reaching their goal without the drama created from casualties, despair and shame. .

The problem is one of scale. The average guard army is tens of millions of soldiers. The average ork army billions. The average nid army in the hundreds of billions. If marines can't actually beat a few thousand of any of them then they really can't do much thats worth doing. It would just beg the question of why invest huge resources in creating super soldiers when for the same price you could marshall a whole world to arms and give one in ten men plasma guns. In fact the verse doesn't make sense with regard to how marines are portrayed or described (even in the codex for loyalist and chaos) as being able to win wars single handed unless they really are considerably better than what they are fighting. If the whole space marine strategy is simply drop-pod, kill leader; army collapses. Then that would be so easy for those armies to counter. Nids synapse is all fleet borne so the marine advantage is useless and they can just grow more norn queens. Orks can easily find another leader. Guard can just promote a new leader. Whilst chaos can simply go Alpharuis and keep fighting on regardless.

If we made marines as weak as you want them to be then even two thousand guardsmen could kill a whole chapter. Even perfect raids to kill enemy leaders would leave 3/4 of the chapter dead. It would rend whole chunks of the canon. They have to be awesome in order for their place in the verse to be justified. You really can't dismiss what the actually codex's of the army books say. What they have said since 3rd edition at least.

Believe me, I know 40k has plenty of holes in it; but there are plenty of elite creatures/warriors capable of killing and going toe to toe with marines. They are the threat, I object to you saying that joe guardsmen or basic gaunts, or boys, or firewarriors can beat marines like any other army. So things like nid warriors with boneswords, trygons, stealers, incubi, aspect warriors, daemons. All of those are suitable for fighting and killing marines. In fact that is where the drama is at. The battle for macragge has the captain of the first company being dramatically slain by the swarmlord (with the whole company being wiped out). The fact is that the guard are outclassed by EVERYTHING and is why we are supposed to sympathise with these poor bastards trying to hold these creatures off; even with all there assembled might. Marines can overcome huge odds and are awesome BUT they can only achieve so much against the sheer numbers and have to rely on heroism/luck/cunning to win. I just don't get how you dont' get that vibe from the stuff that describes the 40k verse its pretty consisitent on this general vibe.

If I were the writers of the franchise? I wouldn't have made the claim that power armor is some sort of rare, wondrous, techno-relic artifact that only stops 50% of the rounds incoming at it. When carapace seems to offer the same sort of protection against the majority of the sorts of attacks that they might face. Sure, the PA is going to offer (some) protection in situations where bolters or other, heavier munitions are involved... but even here, PA doesn't seem to be really standing up to much of anything, based on the writing.

I'd have written it so the focus is less on the defensive values (and perhaps would have claimed it as "carapace armor built around a strengthened, augmetic chassis") and would have focused more on the bling. The autosenses, the enviro-seals, the strength enhancement, the waste recycler, etc etc. This is what would set the tone for PA, rather than being a kinda-okay protection for the guys I keep throwing at, basically, dragons.

That is, that is how I would write it if I didn't want to make my Space Marines fething Hell on Wheels with Boltguns.

Totalwar1402 wrote:The problem is one of scale. The average guard army is tens of millions of soldiers. The average ork army billions. The average nid army in the hundreds of billions. If marines can't actually beat a few thousand of any of them then they really can't do much thats worth doing. It would just beg the question of why invest huge resources in creating super soldiers when for the same price you could marshall a whole world to arms and give one in ten men plasma guns.

I cannot agree. Because the Marines never were intended to defeat an entire galaxy of foes simultaneously. They were humanity's spearhead, launching from Earth to blast through any local resistance they encountered in the effort to recapture lost colonies and stake out a true empire. And that's when there were still way more of them around. The Marines now are a leftover which is employed as elite shock troops assisting the Imperial Guard with commando operations or eliminating a threat before it becomes so big that you need to call in the Guard. This is what the books have said. This is what I think a lot of Marine fans don't want to see, though, as it (understandably) makes the Astartes seem less invincible and less awesome compared to being something like humanity's "first and last line of defence" or whatever people wish to see in them (which would put the Guard in a supportive role instead of being the force that bears the brunt of pressure).

And in your calculation you've forgotten both the loyalty issue (the reason the Guard isn't permitted air vehicles and mixed regiments of armour and troops are a rarity) as well as the fact that lots of Imperials are unable to handle high technology, not to mention the necessity of maintenance and supply lines (the reason the IG is using the lasgun).

Basically, your reasoning seems to boil down to "we don't need special forces when we can just throw more and more line infantry at the enemy". Which is somewhat true, but even less efficient than the Guard already is. By the same reasoning, there also wouldn't be a need for Storm Troopers. And by the same reasoning, we wouldn't need the SEALs, Delta Force, KSK, SAS etc in real life. You have any idea how many normal troops you could raise with the money spent on the training of these elite forces?

The Space Marines are humanity's attempt to focus as much personal firepower, resilience and skill as possible into an area as small as possible. In that, they succeed. This does not make them invincible or capable of outperforming entire army groups, and it does not mean that a small Marine squad cannot be taken down by concentrated las-fire when assaulting a company of dug-in Guardsmen. Well, they would have the "fearless" advantage and I could see the Guardsmen breaking off their defense when too many of their people die or the Marines get too close, but I find it highly probable that the Marines would suffer casualties before this occurs.

Totalwar1402 wrote:In fact the verse doesn't make sense with regard to how marines are portrayed or described (even in the codex for loyalist and chaos) as being able to win wars single handed unless they really are considerably better than what they are fighting. If the whole space marine strategy is simply drop-pod, kill leader; army collapses. Then that would be so easy for those armies to counter. Nids synapse is all fleet borne so the marine advantage is useless and they can just grow more norn queens. Orks can easily find another leader. Guard can just promote a new leader. Whilst chaos can simply go Alpharuis and keep fighting on regardless.

Whilst it is true that the Tyranids neutralize this advantage, I cannot agree about the others. Orks do not "easily" find another leader, they promptly go into infighting. Guard is still affected by the loss of command & control facilities, not to mention the effect on troop morale. And whilst Chaos could (and often likely would) fight on, the loss in unified tactics would show itself as well. This is how we've often seen it work, so I see no contradiction between the sources at all. Said contradiction would be created, however, if you make the Marines as awesome as you think they are.

Unless, as I said, we're discarding anything pre-5th-edition. Though even the 5E rulebook does support my interpretation:
"Seek, strike, secure - this is the combat doctrine of the Space Marines. They conduct the most dangerous and crucial of assaults, leading lightning raids behind enemy lines, seizing vital positions and slaying enemy warlords to render opposing troops leaderless."
"Where the Space Marines can be likened to a surgical blade, striking swiftly and precisely, the onslaught of the Imperial Guard is akin to a sledgehammer, cumbersome but unstoppable."

Totalwar1402 wrote:If we made marines as weak as you want them to be then even two thousand guardsmen could kill a whole chapter.

10.000 Guardsmen - as per Rogal Dorn's comparison. Though this is a very rough estimate, given that the Primarch was not pitting off these 10.000 soldiers against his Marines but rather what it'd take to achieve some specific objective. It does fit to everything I've read in the studio books so far, though. Aside from the Space Wolves ... but they've always been "special".

I'm beginnin to think this discussion might warrant its own thread - on the other hand, I also see a high chance that we'll never reach consensus anyways, making further debate redundant. We just seem to have fostered a drastically different perception of the Imperial forces based on the material we've been reading.

Lynata wrote:

Melissia wrote:In fact, according to FFG's roleplay rules, average human with even a mild level of experience is bound to be MORE skilled than an Astartes. Add that to the fact that humans have access to equipment that can drop all but the hardest Space Marines in one hit, and this is really just non-sense.

Too bad that the way FFG's RPGs work, skill has little effect on combat resolution

Number of attacks, number of dodges, humans have a higher ballistics skill/weapon skill cap, wield and dual wield weapons more effectively, psychic powers that make a Librarian powers look pathetic, and so on and so forth...

Yeah, little effect. Except where there is lots of effect. You don't really play FFG games much do you?

Well, do remember that we're talking about four different games with similar, but not identical, mechanics behind them, and though you can blend characters from one game into another, it's not really intended that you do so. Dark Heresy is different from Rogue Trader, which is different from Deathwatch, which is different from Black Crusade.

I'm using BC to design a couple antagonists for my DH game, and I'm finding that these heretics are in some ways more powerful, and in other ways not (especially when it comes to the Unnatural Characteristic trait), though it gives me ideas for a future hybridization of certain things, as I actually like the less-powerful aspect of the Unnatural Characteristics from BC more than the flat-out multiplier of DH.

I just read half of The Founding, and there a Imperial Guard officer (On, the heroes' side, for that matter) describes the attacking World Eaters as "taking punishment that would kill a Leman Russ". Aside from obvious jokes about You Can Not Kill That Which Does Not Live and so on and so forth, this really describes the situation. Especially consider that these Berzerkers have armor that has probably not seen a Chirumek for a couple of centuries.

The Imperium is huge. The Imperium has access to untold trillions, if not more, guardsmen. Morale is not an issue either. (What would you choose? A 100% death chance, or a 99.99% death chance?)

Marines, on the other hand. Having armor that can shrug of artillery and weapons that can stop tanks, thye might seem like mary sues.

And aye, I'd say a couple of IG versus a Marine is pretty fethed.

Still, look at the proportions.

IG die in huge numbers, but sustained heavy weapon fire will eventually bring the Marine down.

And IG are sure many enough for it.

I do not see as one of them supporting the other. Most IG will never even see a Marine in their lives.

Their roles are also so different. Aye, Marines making a lightning strike to their leader. But is not the leader (and his inevitable bodyguard) often the very hardest?

Comparing this to modern day is also all-but impossible. Imagine someone using Chenkov's strategy today. Outrage!

(Perhaps with the exception of Russia and China)

Heavy weapons, tanks and artillery in all honor. But SM would simply not be worth the effort if they were not gob-smackingly superior.